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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: DemonDust]
#1715068
12/24/14 10:12 PM
12/24/14 10:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Simply put, if you wanna run an air filter, find the biggest one that will fit your application. If your car runs better with one, you have turbulence / A/F mixture issues or the carb is too big - all of which should be corrected by other means than installing an air filter. No matter how you cut it, an air filter is a restriction.
Fastest 300
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: D-50]
#1715071
12/24/14 11:19 PM
12/24/14 11:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,647
aotearoa
rebel
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,647
aotearoa
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our track unfortunately has some stones lifting off the seal on the return road & after seeing 1 racer get a stone flick up from their front wheel & lodge itself into carbs butterflies, i would never ever run without some kind of filtration on my carb. the car with the stone in the butterflies took off with front brakes locked on & plowed into another racecar before the owner could shut it off. not a happy day for 2 racers that day. i'm using Frams Airhogg air cleaner. it's pretty good, virtualy no difference with it on or off, but i now leave it on.
Last edited by rebel; 12/24/14 11:23 PM.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1715075
12/25/14 01:48 AM
12/25/14 01:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,011
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,011
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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The K & N web site has the formula for square inches of filter to hp for no loss. If I recall it is 7 hp for each square inch of filter using the K&N type. I bought a 6 x 14 for next year. I learned the hard way it is impossible for the most part to aviod getting some dirt in the motor. When I saw the dirt film in the throttle body that did it for me.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Crizila]
#1715079
12/25/14 11:51 AM
12/25/14 11:51 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
our track unfortunately has some stones lifting off the seal on the return road & after seeing 1 racer get a stone flick up from their front wheel & lodge itself into carbs butterflies, i would never ever run without some kind of filtration on my carb. the car with the stone in the butterflies took off with front brakes locked on & plowed into another racecar before the owner could shut it off. not a happy day for 2 racers that day. i'm using Frams Airhogg air cleaner. it's pretty good, virtualy no difference with it on or off, but i now leave it on.
and if you are going to use a "conventional" round style air filter, get one with a breathable top. Just that much more area that is seldom used.
I found the top lid causes issues on flow... you get
2 different air paths that crash into each other
and in the end you get less into the carb... I also
see that its worse if you have a drop base because
the air is going up first then has to turn down to
get into the carb.. but the side air is plowing into
the lid air ... on the track I dont run a air cleaner
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: camastomcat]
#1715081
12/25/14 12:47 PM
12/25/14 12:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I wouldn't run without one. Rocks and sand are a killer. Big K&N under the scoop.
I was gonna try to make a lite filter for the inlet
of my scoop but never got around to it.. I cant put
one in the scoop... but basically it would stop sticks
and rocks
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mopar dave]
#1715083
12/25/14 01:15 PM
12/25/14 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,682
Philadelphia
radar
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,682
Philadelphia
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I remember a few years ago this came up and everybody was talking about how they use one of those filters that looks like a flat box with a wedge in the front all the air came in the top/front. Don't remember the name. I remember looking them up since I was looking for a better option under my 340 scoop. Too much $$ for my street effort.
Edit: looked it up on google image- 'UNI' filter
Last edited by radar; 12/25/14 03:20 PM.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mopar dave]
#1715084
12/25/14 01:16 PM
12/25/14 01:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 715
Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 715
Central TEXAS!!!!
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Had a big block chevy on the dyno, tuned it for max power, THEN the owner mentions he runs an air cleaner and it’s in the truck. We put it on and the engine loss 26 HP, then lean the carb back down and gained 28 HP.
Joe
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: sr4440]
#1715085
12/25/14 01:28 PM
12/25/14 01:28 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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When we were designing air filters and housing we designed them for the max power... ALL filters are a restriction but we had to use that to our benefit.. I prefer to have the filter element as a remote and plumb the air in with a nice radiused inlet to the carb or throttle body to straighten the air out
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: radar]
#1715087
12/25/14 01:34 PM
12/25/14 01:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,918
Akron, Ohio
ProSport
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,918
Akron, Ohio
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Quote:
I remember a few years ago this came up and everybody was talking about how they use one of those filters that looks like a flat box with a wedge in the front all the air came in the top/front. Don't remember the name. I remember looking them up since I was looking for a better option under my 340 scoop. Too much $$ for my street effort.
Uni-Filter, they are expensive.....
http://www.hoffpro.com/category_s/95.htm
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: ProSport]
#1715088
12/25/14 01:42 PM
12/25/14 01:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,918
Akron, Ohio
ProSport
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,918
Akron, Ohio
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If my car ever makes it to a track I will probably use a screen from Intensity, it will at least keep rocks and birds out. I can only fit a 10x2.75 air cleaner on my car and there's no way it will feed a 500" engine at WOT. Speaker covers work also, as Sixpackgut mentioned. I had a 340 Scamp years ago that ran great with a 14x5 K&N but my big block cars have always slowed down with an air cleaner so I ran for many years without one. http://intensityracingproducts.com/proseriesscreens.html
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: J_BODY]
#1715091
12/25/14 01:54 PM
12/25/14 01:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
UNI filter worked well with our cowl hood on our W5 mill.... unfortunately this set up came in at .75" too high, so the 4150 carb is on for the time being. I never ran a filter on the Mirada. Dang top of the carb was up in the Dart Sport hood scoop I was running.... no room.
....and yes, these are basically "bug and rock" catchers imho, kind of like the K&N filters I see in so many diesel trucks.... with blowby.
The Uni you show here.. how tall is it... I have to
find something(or build) to fit under my cowl hood..
with a 4150 I can fit a 14 X 3" but with the new
throttle body it sits taller... plus I have to have
a spacer to clear the linkage
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: J_BODY]
#1715094
12/25/14 02:06 PM
12/25/14 02:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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From the measurements it looks like I might be making something... but I'll make my final measurements today when I can close the hood(still working under there so I have to clear some stuff out of the way)
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: J_BODY]
#1715099
12/25/14 02:51 PM
12/25/14 02:51 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Haven't tried running without it yet. Any debris in there could be expensive. I believe Procharger recommends a filter.
Fastest 300
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Crizila]
#1715100
12/25/14 03:08 PM
12/25/14 03:08 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I think I'll do like Doug did and make a base for the Uni... but I need to make a plate to seal in the cowl so I'll see what I can come up with.. first I need to get the injection running... see if I can down load the basic program today if I get the chance
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: WheelsUp73]
#1715102
12/25/14 05:47 PM
12/25/14 05:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I run a 14 x 3 filter in a Ram Air Box. I picked up .2 in the qtr and 4 mph with this setup vs an open carb unfiltered with no hoodscoop.
It should since you were putting some pressure to the
intake with that set up
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715107
12/25/14 07:04 PM
12/25/14 07:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,275
Morrow, OH
markz528
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,275
Morrow, OH
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I use the K&N filter that mounts inside the harwood hood scoop. I really like it.
67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: DemonDust]
#1715108
12/25/14 10:10 PM
12/25/14 10:10 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Quote:
What are you guys using for air filters? I notice if I take mine off I can Rev above 9200 rpms. Is there a air cleaner that can handle high rpms and cfm?
Or do you just run without them?
For a long time I used a K&N flat panel filter that fit inside my Harwood Mini-Aero scoop. I had to build the framework to mount it inside the scoop but it worked out well. The AFR tended to richen up gradually above 6500rpm but not enough to worry about. I think the Fram equivalent I used for a while actually flowed better. I never oiled the K&N element. The most recent engine is a 500ci B with Indy intake and 1150 Holley.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#1715109
12/25/14 10:22 PM
12/25/14 10:22 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Now I use a Wix Racing 16"x3.5" filter in a homemade box, taking air from the grill area (no more hood scoop for me). AFR no longer richens up at the top end of the 1/4 mile, no speed or ET lost (ran 132.5mph at the recent bracket finals at woodburn.) It's a little different  Carburetor is IN the airbox, bottom of the box is sandwiched between the carb and intake. Underside of the hood IS the top of the air cleaner (about 2-1/2" clearance for carb top). This way the filter element is as high as possible. Airbox just lifts off once the hoses are disconnected. One nice thing about running an air cleaner is that it shows you the items that WOULD have gone through the engine, all trapped outside the filter. To generate some pressure I fabbed two panels that closed off the areas above and below the grill, making it a closed space. Air coming into the grill has to go through the air cleaner or radiator.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: DemonDust]
#1715112
12/26/14 11:13 AM
12/26/14 11:13 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
LSP
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
What are you guys using for air filters? I notice if I take mine off I can Rev above 9200 rpms. Is there a air cleaner that can handle high rpms and cfm?
Or do you just run without them?
The Wix Racing filter is what was used on your motor in NASCAR, no hp loss in the airbox, get the tallest one you can fit.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: DemonDust]
#1715114
12/26/14 03:00 PM
12/26/14 03:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
LSP
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
Doesn't the NASCAR air pan require duct work as well to make it efficient? The wix filters are fairly cheap if I remember correctly.
Yes, the air pan goes to a duct in the cowl, I was just talking about using the Wix Racing element.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1715115
12/26/14 03:52 PM
12/26/14 03:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
our track unfortunately has some stones lifting off the seal on the return road & after seeing 1 racer get a stone flick up from their front wheel & lodge itself into carbs butterflies, i would never ever run without some kind of filtration on my carb. the car with the stone in the butterflies took off with front brakes locked on & plowed into another racecar before the owner could shut it off. not a happy day for 2 racers that day. i'm using Frams Airhogg air cleaner. it's pretty good, virtualy no difference with it on or off, but i now leave it on.
and if you are going to use a "conventional" round style air filter, get one with a breathable top. Just that much more area that is seldom used.
I found the top lid causes issues on flow... you get
2 different air paths that crash into each other
and in the end you get less into the carb... I also
see that its worse if you have a drop base because
the air is going up first then has to turn down to
get into the carb.. but the side air is plowing into
the lid air ... on the track I dont run a air cleaner
All I can add to this discussion is from my own on-track testing some years ago. I was using a 14" Moroso drop-base housing w/ a K&N 14" x 3" filter and the carb was dialed in for best MPH under the conditions. I swapped to a K&N X-Stream lid and back-to-back testing the car picked up .4-.5 MPH over the standard Moroso lid.
I have limited hood clearance and this was the only way to add filter area I could work out at the time. Although I've heard more than one person p!ss on the X-Stream lid, on my car it helped.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mshred]
#1715117
12/26/14 05:38 PM
12/26/14 05:38 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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The trick seems to be to run enough filter surface area not to measurably restrict. For example, Holley ran a test in 1971 of air flow through a carb. No air cleaner 713 cfm Chevy hi-perf open element cleaner 675 cfm Same as above but with two filter elements stacked 713 cfm. They didn't publish the hights, but the point is once they had enough area, the restriction was the carb. (Mike Urich and Bill Fisher Holley Carburetors & Manifolds 1987 edition page 71) Another thing to consider along the line of what Mr P was describing is the impact on the bowl vents. With Holley type carbs the vent could be placed into a pressure stream, or in a weird turbulent area and that can mess up the fuel curve. A ton of ideas on modifying Bowl Vents shared at Racing Fuel Systems.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Mattax]
#1715119
12/26/14 05:51 PM
12/26/14 05:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163
CT
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How about running a bigger filter with a drop base? Is that really helping or is the drop base causing other issues worse than a smaller filter?
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1715120
12/26/14 06:01 PM
12/26/14 06:01 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
How about running a bigger filter with a drop base? Is that really helping or is the drop base causing other issues worse than a smaller filter?
From the testing I did the drop base causes the air
to go up then turn down into the carb... it can cause
disturbance with the direction changes.. but is it
greater or lesser than the small height air cleaner..
I'm sure that at some point its a wash.. but if you
can go to a larger diameter that should help so the air
has a longer area to make the turn
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: BradH]
#1715121
12/26/14 06:03 PM
12/26/14 06:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
our track unfortunately has some stones lifting off the seal on the return road & after seeing 1 racer get a stone flick up from their front wheel & lodge itself into carbs butterflies, i would never ever run without some kind of filtration on my carb. the car with the stone in the butterflies took off with front brakes locked on & plowed into another racecar before the owner could shut it off. not a happy day for 2 racers that day. i'm using Frams Airhogg air cleaner. it's pretty good, virtualy no difference with it on or off, but i now leave it on.
and if you are going to use a "conventional" round style air filter, get one with a breathable top. Just that much more area that is seldom used.
I found the top lid causes issues on flow... you get
2 different air paths that crash into each other
and in the end you get less into the carb... I also
see that its worse if you have a drop base because
the air is going up first then has to turn down to
get into the carb.. but the side air is plowing into
the lid air ... on the track I dont run a air cleaner
All I can add to this discussion is from my own on-track testing some years ago. I was using a 14" Moroso drop-base housing w/ a K&N 14" x 3" filter and the carb was dialed in for best MPH under the conditions. I swapped to a K&N X-Stream lid and back-to-back testing the car picked up .4-.5 MPH over the standard Moroso lid.
I have limited hood clearance and this was the only way to add filter area I could work out at the time. Although I've heard more than one person p!ss on the X-Stream lid, on my car it helped.
Helped on mine also. I have some issues with it disrupting air flow in to the carb, especially since it covers a lot more area than the inlet area of the carb it is sitting on. If there is an air flow disruption, I would think a lot depends on the distance of the top to the carb inlet. I still think the more filter area you have, the better.
Fastest 300
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mshred]
#1715122
12/26/14 06:07 PM
12/26/14 06:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I run a 14x5" tall K&N reusable filter...My buddy harassed me to make a pass with it off because the car would pick up.
I removed it and lost a tenth...He couldn't believe it! LOL...FWIW I would rather run it and know that my engine is getting the cleanest air possible instead of take the chance of feeding it dust and other debris that could possibly damage or wear it out quicker. I have seen people do tests where they lost no power with the filter, so hopefully mine is the same way 
Did you jet up or down after taking the air cleaner
off... without finding the A/F point that your engine
likes for max power you didnt do anything but change
the A/F ratio.. nothing is ever as easy as.. just
do this or that and this occurs
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Crizila]
#1715124
12/26/14 06:17 PM
12/26/14 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
our track unfortunately has some stones lifting off the seal on the return road & after seeing 1 racer get a stone flick up from their front wheel & lodge itself into carbs butterflies, i would never ever run without some kind of filtration on my carb. the car with the stone in the butterflies took off with front brakes locked on & plowed into another racecar before the owner could shut it off. not a happy day for 2 racers that day. i'm using Frams Airhogg air cleaner. it's pretty good, virtualy no difference with it on or off, but i now leave it on.
and if you are going to use a "conventional" round style air filter, get one with a breathable top. Just that much more area that is seldom used.
I found the top lid causes issues on flow... you get
2 different air paths that crash into each other
and in the end you get less into the carb... I also
see that its worse if you have a drop base because
the air is going up first then has to turn down to
get into the carb.. but the side air is plowing into
the lid air ... on the track I dont run a air cleaner
All I can add to this discussion is from my own on-track testing some years ago. I was using a 14" Moroso drop-base housing w/ a K&N 14" x 3" filter and the carb was dialed in for best MPH under the conditions. I swapped to a K&N X-Stream lid and back-to-back testing the car picked up .4-.5 MPH over the standard Moroso lid.
I have limited hood clearance and this was the only way to add filter area I could work out at the time. Although I've heard more than one person p!ss on the X-Stream lid, on my car it helped.
Helped on mine also. I have some issues with it disrupting air flow in to the carb, especially since it covers a lot more area than the inlet area of the carb it is sitting on. If there is an air flow disruption, I would think a lot depends on the distance of the top to the carb inlet. I still think the more filter area you have, the better.
More air is better... I'm sure that if you run a taller
filter the lid has less effect on it than a shorter
filter.. but air coming in from 2 different directions
and 90* from another does have effect... and the
closer they are the worse things get
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1715126
12/26/14 11:04 PM
12/26/14 11:04 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Quote:
Did you jet up or down after taking the air cleaner
off... without finding the A/F point that your engine
likes for max power you didnt do anything but change
the A/F ratio.. nothing is ever as easy as.. just
do this or that and this occurs
I have a friend who runs the 14x3 with pleated filter top. Based on results I've seen posted here in the past I got him to make a pass without it. The car lost more than a tenth but the AFR leaned out 2 points and was dead flat instead of the wacky variations it normally has. He insisted in putting it back on instead of jetting up a little so the test was incomplete. I have no doubt that the air cleaner is restrictive on this '70 Swinger with 410ci smallblock and a 350+lb driver that was sooo close to that 10.0et he desperately wanted. It most likely would have cracked a 9 if I was driving it just due to the weight reduction. Logging AFR will show a restrictive air filter as richening at higher engine speeds.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1715127
12/26/14 11:39 PM
12/26/14 11:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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Quote:
How about running a bigger filter with a drop base? Is that really helping or is the drop base causing other issues worse than a smaller filter?
I agree with Mr P Body - it depends 
It depends on whether there is enough area to begin with, whether the top is too close to the bowl vents, and the shape of the base.
My observation from stuff I've bought is that some drop bases have a very steep slope just inside the aircleaner. Others are a lot smoother.
Same with the tops. I was using a K&N filter top, but internally it was pinching the gap to the drop base. Externally, it was placing the retaining rod and nut very close to the hood. I switched to a nicely shaped spun aluminum top and picked up room both inside the aircleaner and hood clearance. So now I can run a taller cleaner or add 1/2" more carb spacer if I need.
Someplace I've seen a rough calculation of filter area for cfm, I just can't recall where right now.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: ademon]
#1715128
12/27/14 01:07 AM
12/27/14 01:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,228
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,228
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
i don't know what to do with this! seems to rev fast to 6,500. but it has to be restrictive LOL.
Dude, the distributor is on the wrong end of the motor for a six pak to work well on    All kidding aside the dual plane six pak intakes, both SB and BB limit the peak HP and torque RPM   My sixpak 512 C.I. low deck pump gas stroker made peak torque at 4500 RPM and peak HP at 5500 RPM, but that stupid car would run faster shifting it at or above 7000 RPM in 1st and 2nd gear and cross the finish line between 6300 and 7000 RPM depending on the track elevation, local weather and rear tire size I learned a long time ago to shift the car when it quit pulling hard in each gear
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mopar65]
#1715129
12/27/14 01:13 AM
12/27/14 01:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,918
Akron, Ohio
ProSport
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,918
Akron, Ohio
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Quote:
I need to find a set up for my tunnel ram that will fit under a 7 inch tall hood scoop.
I used a couple 9" air cleaners on mine, but I think my scoop was a 9".
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: AndyF]
#1715131
12/27/14 07:58 PM
12/27/14 07:58 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Quote:
A 410 inch engine at 7500 rpm would need a 14x4 air filter. A 500 inch engine at 7500 rpm needs a 14x5 filter. I've used 14x5 and 14x6 filters on the dyno with 500 inches and a 1250 Dominator and there is no restriction. But it is hard to fit that large of a filter under a hood unless you use an extra tall 6 pack style.
Well, I don't rev my 500 to 7500, at least not intentionally My Wix Racing 16x3.5 equates to a 14x4 and shows no restriction to 7000 but I expect the Wix racing media flows better than the K&N. Going to a 16" filter helps overcome some of the geometric difficulties of a close carb-to-hood space, especially with a Dominator. I'd been wanting to delete the scoop for years and finally got around to it last winter. Still have to paint the hood to match the rest of the car. No loss in performance shows tall isn't necessary, just the easiest route.
For anyone who wants to browse the Wix Racing catalog: http://www.wixfilters.com/Speciality/Racing.aspx?1
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: AndyF]
#1715132
12/27/14 08:08 PM
12/27/14 08:08 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
A 410 inch engine at 7500 rpm would need a 14x4 air filter. A 500 inch engine at 7500 rpm needs a 14x5 filter. I've used 14x5 and 14x6 filters on the dyno with 500 inches and a 1250 Dominator and there is no restriction. But it is hard to fit that large of a filter under a hood unless you use an extra tall 6 pack style.
What air temps did you test at... as the temps go up
the flow goes down... but what you show is good to know
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715134
12/27/14 08:21 PM
12/27/14 08:21 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I'm not real happy with the filter I will have to run on my Rampage.. I checked it today and I'm gonna have to drop to a 2 3/4" filter.. might get a 3" in there.. I might take it off for racing
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: rebel]
#1715137
12/27/14 09:29 PM
12/27/14 09:29 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
next test was to just place my drop base over the duct & redo the test. straight away the peak value jumped up. so sorry to say Mr P. drop bases actually straighten the air & improve airflow.
I/m glad to see your testing.. but that wasnt what
I seen on the filter flow bench at work... but its
good to see your testing... by the way I tested with
a lid on it with a filter... what your pulling is
direct and the inner radius helps flow as you see... thats
why I run a stack or as its called.. a ideal entry
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1715138
12/27/14 10:24 PM
12/27/14 10:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,621
Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,621
Fulton County, PA
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I used an 11"x5" K&N assembly with the velocity stack style base. Fit inside my Harwood snorkel with an isolator plate. My scoop is mounted on the engine and stays on the car when the hood is removed. Made a difference in the looks of the cylinder walls at the end of the year. And I don't worry about rocks and junk getting thrown into the scoop. Wouldn't be with out it now.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715139
12/28/14 12:07 AM
12/28/14 12:07 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Quote:
Are you saying you run your air cleaner pokin through the hood? I`ve seen some 8-second cars w/no more than the air filter up in the wind.............
No scoop, no hole, 'glass copy of the factory '68 Barracuda hood with the pot metal inserts as well. Picture and description in my second post above somewhere...
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#1715140
12/28/14 02:01 AM
12/28/14 02:01 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 197
Milwaukee, WI
moparjimbo
member
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member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 197
Milwaukee, WI
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What I really really want is someone to make a drop dominator base that would use the Mopar oval lid, K&N makes a I think 3" tall I would have to check I cant recall Mopar oval air filter. I have that filter and a brand new "572 Hemi" factory style decaled lid sitting on a shelf waiting for such a magical base or for me to have one fabricated....
Anyone know of such a thing?
1996 Viper GTS - UGR Twin Turbo 1500RWHP, 9.02 @ 167 on pump gas and DOT tire 1973 Challenger - 572 Indy Hemi 860HP 1975 Trailduster Convertible, 440 1967 Plymouth Fury Police Pursuit 2DR 505 Stroker 2004 Neon SRT4 modded www.milwaukeemopar.com
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: moparjimbo]
#1715141
12/29/14 02:25 AM
12/29/14 02:25 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,647
aotearoa
rebel
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,647
aotearoa
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i had a couple of PM's asking me if i did a test with the filter in place, i hadn't but i have now. so this test is with my Fram Air Hogg filter, freshly cleaned with an el cheapo chrome lid, as the test showed, it's still better than no filter plate at all.
Last edited by rebel; 12/29/14 02:28 AM.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: rebel]
#1715144
12/29/14 03:05 AM
12/29/14 03:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
i had a couple of PM's asking me if i did a test with the filter in place, i hadn't but i have now. so this test is with my Fram Air Hogg filter, freshly cleaned with an el cheapo chrome lid, as the test showed, it's still better than no filter plate at all.
I like your numbers... how tall is your test filter...
also I tested the K&N but your filter looks much nicer
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715147
12/29/14 04:05 AM
12/29/14 04:05 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
slammedR/T
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
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I'm leaning towards the uni filter as it's shape will be perfect for my hood. I always ran with out a filter because i felt a difference in my 93 dakota when racing with filter on or off. Also the truck pulled more rpm than it would with the filter on. But I'm pretty sure the stock hood played a major role in that the filter was most likely against the hood reducing air flow.
2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads 1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel. motor; 10.258 @ 132.78 200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69 racemagnum
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: rebel]
#1715148
12/29/14 11:36 AM
12/29/14 11:36 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
it's a 4" Mr P. i have a 3" K&N but it's MIA in the garage somewhere. i wanted to give that a clean too & compare but i only have (had?) the round element part.
Yeah I ran a 3" K&N... I was curious why you got different
number.. I also forgot what flow I did this at but I
believe it was a fair bit higher... wish I still had
my paper work
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715153
12/30/14 02:06 PM
12/30/14 02:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I have to use a spacer for the air cleaner to clear the linkage and yesterday I seen that the front of the 14" dia filter hits the hood and holds it up a little... I'm gonna try angle cutting the spacer to see if that will clear... I dont want to go any shorter than the 3" filter that I am using... this is on my throttle body.. but it was about the same on the 850 carb.. but that was a bit lower(no spacer) EDIT Plus I'm dumping the K&N that was a gift to me.. but I need the flow
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 12/30/14 02:10 PM.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715155
12/30/14 02:39 PM
12/30/14 02:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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I had been running a cheap 14x3 auto parts store filter for the past few years..... Just installed a new WIX Racing filter. My setup is a RamAirBox breathing through the grille. Wish I could fit a taller filter, but 3" with a drop base has me right against the hood.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715157
12/30/14 02:47 PM
12/30/14 02:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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Litrally just recieved it from Summit yesterday and istalled in last night. Doubt I'll FEEL any difference, but I'll be watching the timeslip! No, I don't have a wideband. It's on my priority list, though; Might even get one this winter (???).
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: StealthWedge67]
#1715159
12/30/14 03:30 PM
12/30/14 03:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I had been running a cheap 14x3 auto parts store filter for the past few years..... Just installed a new WIX Racing filter. My setup is a RamAirBox breathing through the grille. Wish I could fit a taller filter, but 3" with a drop base has me right against the hood.
I really like those Ram type boxes with the hoses..
I'm trying to set something up like that with my cowl
hood
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1715161
12/31/14 12:22 AM
12/31/14 12:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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My RW dyno results with a single carb on the Modman Carb was a 800cfm AVS THUNDER KN 14x3 with Xtreme lid - 318 RWHP MOROSO 16x3 - same day - 333 RWHP No air cleaner - 277 RWHP   KN Hemi dual quad 2" high - twin AFB 500s - 358 RWHP Two lessons Ive learned over time... 1 - Carters hate being run without an air bell or cleaner. 2 - Xtreme lids rob HP compared to a decent size normal filter element. Joe Sherman has made similar findings on Speed Torque.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mopar65]
#1715163
12/31/14 12:51 AM
12/31/14 12:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I need to find a set up for my tunnel ram that will fit under a 7 inch tall hood scoop.
If you go to K&Ns web site they have many different shapes of filters. You may have to get creative to build the base, but lids are easy to make out of aluminum plate should you need every last bit of room. For my race motor with a Dominater flange I used a drop base attached to an air pan combined with a 14x6 and a flat lid to get it under my scoop.
thanks for the info. I was thinking about trying to use a air filter that is used with the six pack set up? think it would flow more air than 2 9 inch air filters? I have 2 K&N 9 inch air filters but they are 8 inches tall by them self. if i had a shop etc i8 would just run the carbs through the hood with the 8 inch tall filters.
No way no how..
A 2" high oval 6 pack filter had 121sq" of filter area. (60.75 citcumference x 2" height.)
Two 9x8s = 226.16sq" x 2 = 452sq" !!!!
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715166
12/31/14 09:37 AM
12/31/14 09:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,467
Sydney,Australia
tex013
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,467
Sydney,Australia
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Mal , good to see you still plugging away FWIW i have dynoed my 440 and have found less than 5 rwhp difference aircleaner to no air cleaner ., but i have seen 20/25 rwhp gain with my air box . With a six pack scoop i would never run filter free , see a few motors eat something they shouldnt on drag strips . I run a 14x3 k&n with filter top , with drop base attached to the air box which is heat resistant fibreglass sheet . Maybe a taller filter may help Nearly time for a new season to start Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715169
12/31/14 03:20 PM
12/31/14 03:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
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Good info thankxxx.............So my 14x3 has been killin me from day one and the K&N site sez the 14x3 flows under 700 cfm and the Wix racing 4" flows 1000+ so that`s my next purchace. My s$%^z gonna fly next time out..........   This is good info. I had to switch to a 3" K&N from a 4" (both 14" dia. with K&N Extreme lid) when I changed carbs to a Dominator. It looks like I likely was choking the carb/engine. The Wix racing site shows their 14" X 3.01" to flow 1000 + CFM and they offer them in 1/4" taller increments too! Thanks, Mark
Last edited by Hemi Allstate; 12/31/14 04:56 PM.
1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715170
12/31/14 04:51 PM
12/31/14 04:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,228
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,228
Bend,OR USA
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Moparmal, don't forget we race cars with motors, not motors on dynos The reason I'm pointing this out is I saw 8 HP loss on two different motors on two different engines dynos at two different altitudes testing the K&N Extreme filter lids and eventually ended doing a at the track test back to back to back, A,B,A, in less than twenty minutes between each run and saw a .020 to .030 ET reduction(quicker) and .3 MPH increase on a 3x14 filter using the lid  This was on a 440 powered Duster with a sixpak type scoop molded on it, the air cleaner lid was close to the top of the scoop, less than a fingers width at the rear It was not sealed to the scoop either some of this hot rodding and race stuff doesn't always make since, HUH Test, test and test some more to learn whar does work
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715171
01/01/15 05:02 AM
01/01/15 05:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
470 BB 7500 max............. 
You need appx 164 sq" of filtering area.
A 14x3 wont do it
A 16x3 wont do it (150.75sq")
A 14 x 4" WILL work.....179 sq"r
A 14 x 3 with extreme lid will work also.... = 221 sq" of filtering area.
On the issue of filter tops...I agree people do their own trialling..
BUT... theres no point doing a back to back if the filter without the lid wont support the required flow..........
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mopar dave]
#1715176
01/02/15 12:24 AM
01/02/15 12:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,100
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,100
Rogue River, OR
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http://www.r2cperformance.com/I like the idea behind these filters but I need to call them and ask about the base not having an "ideal entry" even though they sell a sub stack like product. Great information in this thread. I guess I'll save my velocity stacks for looks when the car is in the shop.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Crizila]
#1715183
01/02/15 12:53 PM
01/02/15 12:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Lots of good info, except on the particulate size these different filter Mfg's are trying to keep out of your engine. Any of them can give you some awesome flow numbers if they are just trying to keep out - marbles.
Thats what all this is about... what micron is the filter
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mopar dave]
#1715185
01/02/15 02:20 PM
01/02/15 02:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,100
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,100
Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
I have their air cleaner for 4150. looks like the bass has a very good entry the way it fits the venturi's. they also claim a better flowing filter than a K&N. nice people.
Dave if you have a chance can you snap a few pictures of your setup? I like their filters however the clear poly stuff is a little too "Spectre-esque" for my taste. If I could swing it I'd run a sprint car style air box on my tunnel ram under the scoop.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1715190
01/03/15 02:57 AM
01/03/15 02:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,042
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,042
Mt Morris Michigan
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found some pics on ebay. same as what I have.
4 hole base also offered.
Last edited by mopar dave; 01/03/15 02:58 AM.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mopar dave]
#1715193
01/03/15 10:56 AM
01/03/15 10:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,926
A shed in England
Tig
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,926
A shed in England
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Sorry to hijack, but does anyone have pics of motors using filters on tunnel rams and dominator carbs?
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials.
9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge.
RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: quickd100]
#1715195
01/03/15 05:45 PM
01/03/15 05:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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That is interesting, and with numbers , any pics of the ram air system?
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: mopar dave]
#1715196
01/03/15 05:54 PM
01/03/15 05:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 506
Utah, USA
1964superstock
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 506
Utah, USA
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Quote:
here's the base I have.
Where can you but this air filter base? Manufacture name, part number?
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715208
01/05/15 02:04 AM
01/05/15 02:04 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
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Wade Metzinger 918-809-0987 71 Cuda 9.28@145 -1s, Pglide 68 Cuda 10.64@124 1.45 60's 318->390 eddys Moparts discount code on WIX - moparts www.Filter1.com
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: BradH]
#1715210
01/05/15 03:02 PM
01/05/15 03:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
Not sure if running a smaller (more restrictive) filter setup on the street, and switching out to something more of a "bird and rock catcher" screen only at the track, is a viable approach... or if that's simply fooling myself.
1.  ... 'cuz I was hoping for a comment or two in response to my last paragraph.
2. Where can flow test results for the Wix racing filters found? All I've noticed is the parts listings on Summit, et al, simply say "flow 1000+ CFM"... but it's the same "spec" regardless of size. 
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715215
01/05/15 08:18 PM
01/05/15 08:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
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2. Where can flow test results for the Wix racing filters found? All I've noticed is the parts listings on Summit, et al, simply say "flow 1000+ CFM"... but it's the same "spec" regardless of size.
Just came across this thread on another forum: http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=15773
Even though it's from 2003, the data is still valid IMO and the preface by the poster on the test methodology is also interesting.
First off, THIS is the reason I joined Moparts and a select few sites because of valuable info like this post is getting not squabbling bs like grade school kids in the sand box..............I agree about the 1000+ cfm in different sizes and would like closer more accurate data than that. Think I`ll call em............. 
I think if you call them your gonna get some bogus
number.. IF they even know... you would be talking
to a salesman... I agree.. I would have figured a
larger difference from a 3" to 4"... something just
doesnt sound right
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: AndyF]
#1715217
01/06/15 12:01 AM
01/06/15 12:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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14x3 = 131.94sq" filtering area 14x4 = 175.92sq" The 14x3 has 3/4. (75%) of the surface area of the 14x4 Unless its made out of a different material, or is thicker...I cant see how the 14x4 only flows 5.4 %. more! 907/860 x 100/1 = 105.4%.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: AndyF]
#1715219
01/06/15 12:35 AM
01/06/15 12:35 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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What if the measurement/test was thru say 1000cfm carb or something else that gave an upper limit to the flow?
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: jcc]
#1715220
01/06/15 12:44 AM
01/06/15 12:44 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
What if the measurement/test was thru say 1000cfm carb or something else that gave an upper limit to the flow?
If thats the case then a lot of the data might be invalid ..
who is to say that choke point didnt hold back flow
on some of the 3" stuff
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715222
01/06/15 11:49 AM
01/06/15 11:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
If people want to use the K&N formula - then this s how u calculate the surface area of a round filter.
Its circumference x height - Plug in the diameter into this calculator and itll tell you the circ.
Then x by height -
http://www.csgnetwork.com/circle_sphere_area_calculator.html
David Vizard says you need to adjust the height of the filter to account for the top & bottom molding and edge effects. So, your 3" filter calc really should be more like 2-3/4" (or whatever a particular filter measures) when you're trying to come up w/ effective surface area.
Also, for those who question the data I found and posted from tests performed elsewhere, no problem. But if you feel the need to pi$$ on the results, you should probably dig up your own data or -- even better -- conduct your own tests to (in)validate it.
At least I took the time to try and find something more than just a bunch of opinions on the subject.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715224
01/06/15 02:24 PM
01/06/15 02:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
..."what" you really need to eat a Snickers........"why" because you`re not yourself when you don`t........
I'll have to settle for a blueberry muffin and a large hot chocolate. It's a little snowy here today and the forecast for the rest of the week isn't showing much break in the temp, either.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: AndyF]
#1715227
01/06/15 04:53 PM
01/06/15 04:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Air filters are super expensive to test since it requires a giant flow bench. A 14x6 K&N probably flows 2000 cfm at a reasonable depression so it would require a monster flow bench to test. Not too many people have access to that type of equipment.
Thats the thing... when I was working I used a bench
that had either a 20hp or it might have been a 35hp
electric motor to drive the bench... I have no idea
what it could move at max(air flow) but it sure did
get noisy... it was either a 6" or 8" throat that
we would mount the filter housing on(different fixtures)
for all the different shapes and sizes
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: BradH]
#1715228
01/07/15 08:01 AM
01/07/15 08:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
Quote:
If people want to use the K&N formula - then this s how u calculate the surface area of a round filter.
Its circumference x height - Plug in the diameter into this calculator and itll tell you the circ.
Then x by height -
http://www.csgnetwork.com/circle_sphere_area_calculator.html
David Vizard says you need to adjust the height of the filter to account for the top & bottom molding and edge effects. So, your 3" filter calc really should be more like 2-3/4" (or whatever a particular filter measures) when you're trying to come up w/ effective surface area.
Also, for those who question the data I found and posted from tests performed elsewhere, no problem. But if you feel the need to pi$$ on the results, you should probably dig up your own data or -- even better -- conduct your own tests to (in)validate it.
At least I took the time to try and find something more than just a bunch of opinions on the subject.
Yes...the K&N site also says that some compensation for the lid and base lips along with the filter band needs to be taken into account - but the figures I provided are not too far off to be of use.
As far as pissing on your tables.....I'll be happy to refrain from plagueing this thread with basic Math any further......feel free to keep burning any books you dont agree with........
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715229
01/07/15 01:22 PM
01/07/15 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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The "basic math" is knowing what the CFM capability of a given area of filter material is at a specified test pressure. Then you get to factor in all of the other constraints (choke points, capacity limitations, etc.) for the test equipment used when comparing the same amount of filter area across different brands / types. Questioning the results when inconsistencies between what you'd expect to see vs. actual results is reasonable and understood. Calling someone else's test data bogus when you yourself have nothing to show that proves otherwise is just pissin' on it. I don't burn books, but I put a lot less value in unverified opinions over quantifiable test data, even if the methodology may not be ideal. At least that's a starting point for refining the test approach, especially when those inconsistencies show up. G'day mate... and don't let the salties get ya'!
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715231
01/07/15 05:25 PM
01/07/15 05:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
So now Im just struggling to see where I called your data bogus?
You specifically may not have, but your response triggered a defensive reaction by me where I felt the need to make a general comment about the way some others reacted to my posting of data.
Eh...
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: BradH]
#1715233
01/07/15 07:14 PM
01/07/15 07:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
Quote:
So now Im just struggling to see where I called your data bogus?
You specifically may not have, but your response triggered a defensive reaction by me where I felt the need to make a general comment about the way some others reacted to my posting of data.
Eh...
Next time aim straight.......or eat two snickers......:p
Fwiw. I'm not making a call on that data table one way or the other.....too many unknowns.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: AndyF]
#1715235
01/07/15 10:56 PM
01/07/15 10:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Andy - I don't disagree. That data I referenced didn't include all the necessary background to fully understand (as I phrased it above) "... all of the other constraints (choke points, capacity limitations, etc.) for the test equipment used when comparing the same amount of filter area across different brands / types."
For example, what if all those tests were based on how much air someone could pull through a 1.56" v x 1.75" throttle race-type 4150 that might dry-flow 925 CFM at the same test pressure? Then it wouldn't be a test of the max flow capabilities for each 3" vs. 4" filter element, and, instead, how many CFM each filter reduced the carb's peak flow capabilities.
Assuming EVERY filter is going to result in at least some amount of restriction, then the smaller delta between the 3" and 4" versions of the same filter types might be explained because the 4" filters aren't being tested to their limits, whereas some of the 3" might be getting right up to their full flow capabilities.
Regardless, my intent was simply to add more data, unfortunately w/o being able to explain the whole test setup.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715236
01/07/15 10:59 PM
01/07/15 10:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
Next time aim straight.......or eat two snickers......:p
Sawed-off 12-gauge shotguns aren't exactly known for pinpoint accuracy.
TWO Snickers??? Gawd, my blood sugar level would go into  ; besides, I like Milky Ways better. 
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: BradH]
#1715238
01/07/15 11:29 PM
01/07/15 11:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
Sawed-off 12-gauge shotguns aren't exactly known for pinpoint accuracy. :
Yeah...but they talk louder to a crowd......
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715239
01/07/15 11:36 PM
01/07/15 11:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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I've been sitting back and following this thread. Really don't have much to add other than my set up. Y'all talkin over my head with the flow stuff Never did make a pass without the filter. Don't know why, just figured there were other area's of the car that needed more attention It is on the "To Do" list if I can ever get back out  14 x 5 K&N with the Extreme top snuggled in an Aero scoop. I figured it should flow enough and send less turbulent air to the carb
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715242
01/07/15 11:48 PM
01/07/15 11:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
dodge340dart
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
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Here are some results I have found on a slant six (I know not a race engine) but they are interesting. All tests were on a Mustang Chassis Dyno.
With the 1-bbl (1920 Holley) carburetor:
factory OEM filter in factory air cleaner housing
Max Torque : 132.558lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 83.177hp
Avg Torque : 122.779lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 76.279hp
K&N filter in factory air cleaner housing
Max Torque : 134.171lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 83.767hp
Avg Torque : 122.590lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 79.365hp
Improvement over baseline
Max Torque: 1.583lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 0.590hp
Avg Torque: (-0.189)lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 3.086hp
Baseplate only (no filter)
Max Torque : 132.827lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 84.484hp
Avg Torque : 122.213lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 79.088hp
Improvement over baseline
Max Torque: 0.269b-ft
Max Horsepower: 1.307hp
Avg Torque: (-0.566)lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 2.809hp
I will get the data together for the 2-bbl and the 4-bbl carbs/filters and post it as well.
Chris
2011 & 2012 Beaver Springs Dragway Outlaw Street Champion
2012 BSD Friday Street Racer Driver of the Year
3-time Jr. Stock Eliminator
2-time Mean Street Eliminator
'69 340 Dart 1.500 60ft, 11.359et, 117.08mph
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: dodge340dart]
#1715243
01/07/15 11:56 PM
01/07/15 11:56 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
dodge340dart
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
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Here are the results from the slant six on the Mustang Chassis Dyno.
These results are with a 2-bbl (Carter BBD)
factory air filter and Super-Six air cleaner housing
Max Torque : 140.414lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 93.337hp
Avg Torque : 131.983lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 88.101hp
K&N air filter and Super-Six air cleaner housing
Max Torque : 142.708lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 95.763hp
Avg Torque : 135.147lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 90.406hp
Baseplate only
Max Torque : 150.937lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 103.493hp
Avg Torque : 143.384lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 96.418hp
Let me find the 4bbl data on the same slant.
Chris
2011 & 2012 Beaver Springs Dragway Outlaw Street Champion
2012 BSD Friday Street Racer Driver of the Year
3-time Jr. Stock Eliminator
2-time Mean Street Eliminator
'69 340 Dart 1.500 60ft, 11.359et, 117.08mph
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: dodge340dart]
#1715244
01/08/15 12:05 AM
01/08/15 12:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
dodge340dart
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
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The slant six with a 390 Holley 4-bbl. 14"x2" open element filter/housing (WIX) Max Torque : 155.596lb-ft Max Horsepower: 113.730hp Avg Torque : 150.006lb-ft Avg Horsepower: 103.531hp 14"x3" open element filter/housing (WIX) Max Torque : 156.068lb-ft Max Horsepower: 113.584hp Avg Torque : 150.271lb-ft Avg Horsepower: 103.686hp 14"x3" open element filter/housing (K&N) Max Torque : 154.269lb-ft Max Horsepower: 112.463hp Avg Torque : 148.416lb-ft Avg Horsepower: 102.434hp 14" baseplate only Max Torque : 158.393lb-ft Max Horsepower: 115.839hp Avg Torque : 152.777lb-ft Avg Horsepower: 105.826hp A run from the above test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlkXawoGFLoChris
2011 & 2012 Beaver Springs Dragway Outlaw Street Champion
2012 BSD Friday Street Racer Driver of the Year
3-time Jr. Stock Eliminator
2-time Mean Street Eliminator
'69 340 Dart 1.500 60ft, 11.359et, 117.08mph
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: dodge340dart]
#1715245
01/08/15 12:21 AM
01/08/15 12:21 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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On all 3 engine set ups it was just the filter change, no jet work.. am I correct.. were you running a A/F meter
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: dodge340dart]
#1715246
01/08/15 12:27 AM
01/08/15 12:27 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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The heck with the filters, I'm getting a 390 Holley for my slant six Thanks for the info Back to the confusing chart, I think it was made with a carb or other restriction (only logical explanation with the data we have), and that in some cases makes some sense, because for instance, whats the point of doubling(?) a filter's area, if the gain is very small because of the limits of the carb? Besides everyone pretty much agrees we already know doubling a filters area (same), will double airflow.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1715247
01/08/15 12:31 AM
01/08/15 12:31 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
dodge340dart
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
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You are correct, there were no changes other than changing the air filter element. I don't have the A/F numbers with me, they are at the office, but they were monitored on each run. I remember that the numbers leaned out just a little from the first test of each series to the baseplate only runs. If I remember the runs ranged from about 12.3:1 to 12.85:1 as the runs progressed. I will have to see if I can dig up the numbers tomorrow.
Chris
2011 & 2012 Beaver Springs Dragway Outlaw Street Champion
2012 BSD Friday Street Racer Driver of the Year
3-time Jr. Stock Eliminator
2-time Mean Street Eliminator
'69 340 Dart 1.500 60ft, 11.359et, 117.08mph
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: dodge340dart]
#1715248
01/08/15 12:50 AM
01/08/15 12:50 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
You are correct, there were no changes other than changing the air filter element. I don't have the A/F numbers with me, they are at the office, but they were monitored on each run. I remember that the numbers leaned out just a little from the first test of each series to the baseplate only runs. If I remember the runs ranged from about 12.3:1 to 12.85:1 as the runs progressed. I will have to see if I can dig up the numbers tomorrow.
Chris
The A/F numbers are as I would expect
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Crizila]
#1715251
01/08/15 02:45 PM
01/08/15 02:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
K&N Stub Stack holds the base to the carb
Really nice set up.
Thanks
I have some 4779-2 blocks but it's sooooo cold here I'm afraid to pick up a wrench
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and trust me, it helps a LOT in the aggression dept. after 4 hours of bashin although we play a few ballads...... 
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