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Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: Thumperdart] #1715105
12/25/14 06:29 PM
12/25/14 06:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
boatracer572 Offline
super stock
boatracer572  Offline
super stock

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
scoop filter

8373628-IMG_2049.jpg (372 downloads)
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: boatracer572] #1715106
12/25/14 06:56 PM
12/25/14 06:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
T
Thumperdart Offline
I Live Here
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State of confusion
Quote:

scoop filter




I know the one your talking about just havn`t seen em in Pro-Stock but I am blind.............


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: Thumperdart] #1715107
12/25/14 07:04 PM
12/25/14 07:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,267
Morrow, OH
markz528 Offline
master
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Morrow, OH
I use the K&N filter that mounts inside the harwood hood scoop. I really like it.


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: DemonDust] #1715108
12/25/14 10:10 PM
12/25/14 10:10 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
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Posts: 1,131
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Quote:

What are you guys using for air filters? I notice if I take mine off I can Rev above 9200 rpms. Is there a air cleaner that can handle high rpms and cfm?

Or do you just run without them?





For a long time I used a K&N flat panel filter that fit inside my Harwood Mini-Aero scoop. I had to build the framework to mount it inside the scoop but it worked out well. The AFR tended to richen up gradually above 6500rpm but not enough to worry about. I think the Fram equivalent I used for a while actually flowed better. I never oiled the K&N element. The most recent engine is a 500ci B with Indy intake and 1150 Holley.

8373758-HarwoodKN.JPG (239 downloads)
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: @#$%&*!] #1715109
12/25/14 10:22 PM
12/25/14 10:22 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
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@

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
Now I use a Wix Racing 16"x3.5" filter in a homemade box, taking air from the grill area (no more hood scoop for me). AFR no longer richens up at the top end of the 1/4 mile, no speed or ET lost (ran 132.5mph at the recent bracket finals at woodburn.) It's a little different Carburetor is IN the airbox, bottom of the box is sandwiched between the carb and intake. Underside of the hood IS the top of the air cleaner (about 2-1/2" clearance for carb top). This way the filter element is as high as possible. Airbox just lifts off once the hoses are disconnected.
One nice thing about running an air cleaner is that it shows you the items that WOULD have gone through the engine, all trapped outside the filter. To generate some pressure I fabbed two panels that closed off the areas above and below the grill, making it a closed space. Air coming into the grill has to go through the air cleaner or radiator.

8373766-WixBox.JPG (374 downloads)
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: @#$%&*!] #1715110
12/26/14 12:43 AM
12/26/14 12:43 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,414
St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
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David_in_St_Croi Offline
top fuel
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,414
St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
Why would anyone run without an air filter? The speaker grill idea that has been mentioned in several posts will not keep anything out that matters. Grit will chew up the innards of an engine so fast. We have 5" tall 9" diameter K and N on the 452 in the RR as we have salt, road grit, tan-tan leaves, rocks, small children, Sahara dust etc all in the atmosphere here.



https://www.facebook.com/THENEWCDRA

Proud member of the liberal scientific elite
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: David_in_St_Croi] #1715111
12/26/14 08:58 AM
12/26/14 08:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 426
Cairns Queensland Australia. T...
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vc360 Offline
mopar
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Cairns Queensland Australia. T...
These guys make some different stuff.

http://www.universalspinners.com

Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: DemonDust] #1715112
12/26/14 11:13 AM
12/26/14 11:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,310
Charlotte, NC
L
LSP Offline
pro stock
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Charlotte, NC
Quote:

What are you guys using for air filters? I notice if I take mine off I can Rev above 9200 rpms. Is there a air cleaner that can handle high rpms and cfm?

Or do you just run without them?




The Wix Racing filter is what was used on your motor in NASCAR, no hp loss in the airbox, get the tallest one you can fit.

Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: LSP] #1715113
12/26/14 01:19 PM
12/26/14 01:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
master
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Menomonee Falls
The uni filter looks like it would work great with a cowl scoop. Anyone have experience with the uni filter?

Doesn't the NASCAR air pan require duct work as well to make it efficient? The wix filters are fairly cheap if I remember correctly.


SDG Motorsports
Hellcat Demon and Redeye Supercharger CNC Porting
https://www.sdgmotorsports.com/
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: DemonDust] #1715114
12/26/14 03:00 PM
12/26/14 03:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,310
Charlotte, NC
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LSP Offline
pro stock
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Quote:

Doesn't the NASCAR air pan require duct work as well to make it efficient? The wix filters are fairly cheap if I remember correctly.




Yes, the air pan goes to a duct in the cowl, I was just talking about using the Wix Racing element.

Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1715115
12/26/14 03:52 PM
12/26/14 03:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

our track unfortunately has some stones lifting off the seal on the return road & after seeing 1 racer get a stone flick up from their front wheel & lodge itself into carbs butterflies, i would never ever run without some kind of filtration on my carb. the car with the stone in the butterflies took off with front brakes locked on & plowed into another racecar before the owner could shut it off. not a happy day for 2 racers that day. i'm using Frams Airhogg air cleaner. it's pretty good, virtualy no difference with it on or off, but i now leave it on.


and if you are going to use a "conventional" round style air filter, get one with a breathable top. Just that much more area that is seldom used.




I found the top lid causes issues on flow... you get
2 different air paths that crash into each other
and in the end you get less into the carb... I also
see that its worse if you have a drop base because
the air is going up first then has to turn down to
get into the carb.. but the side air is plowing into
the lid air ... on the track I dont run a air cleaner




All I can add to this discussion is from my own on-track testing some years ago. I was using a 14" Moroso drop-base housing w/ a K&N 14" x 3" filter and the carb was dialed in for best MPH under the conditions. I swapped to a K&N X-Stream lid and back-to-back testing the car picked up .4-.5 MPH over the standard Moroso lid.

I have limited hood clearance and this was the only way to add filter area I could work out at the time. Although I've heard more than one person p!ss on the X-Stream lid, on my car it helped.

Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: BradH] #1715116
12/26/14 04:08 PM
12/26/14 04:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,412
Toronto
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mshred Offline
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Toronto
I run a 14x5" tall K&N reusable filter...My buddy harassed me to make a pass with it off because the car would pick up.

I removed it and lost a tenth...He couldn't believe it! LOL...FWIW I would rather run it and know that my engine is getting the cleanest air possible instead of take the chance of feeding it dust and other debris that could possibly damage or wear it out quicker. I have seen people do tests where they lost no power with the filter, so hopefully mine is the same way

Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: mshred] #1715117
12/26/14 05:38 PM
12/26/14 05:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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The trick seems to be to run enough filter surface area not to measurably restrict.
For example, Holley ran a test in 1971 of air flow through a carb.
No air cleaner 713 cfm
Chevy hi-perf open element cleaner 675 cfm
Same as above but with two filter elements stacked 713 cfm.

They didn't publish the hights, but the point is once they had enough area, the restriction was the carb. (Mike Urich and Bill Fisher Holley Carburetors & Manifolds 1987 edition page 71)

Another thing to consider along the line of what Mr P was describing is the impact on the bowl vents. With Holley type carbs the vent could be placed into a pressure stream, or in a weird turbulent area and that can mess up the fuel curve. A ton of ideas on modifying Bowl Vents shared at Racing Fuel Systems.

Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: Mattax] #1715118
12/26/14 05:43 PM
12/26/14 05:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
T
Thumperdart Offline
I Live Here
Thumperdart  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
Quote:

The trick seems to be to run enough filter surface area not to measurably restrict.
For example, Holley ran a test in 1971 of air flow through a carb.
No air cleaner 713 cfm
Chevy hi-perf open element cleaner 675 cfm
Same as above but with two filter elements stacked 713 cfm.

They didn't publish the hights, but the point is once they had enough area, the restriction was the carb. (Mike Urich and Bill Fisher Holley Carburetors & Manifolds 1987 edition page 71)

Another thing to consider along the line of what Mr P was describing is the impact on the bowl vents. With Holley type carbs the vent could be placed into a pressure stream, or in a weird turbulent area and that can mess up the fuel curve. A ton of ideas on modifying Bowl Vents shared at Racing Fuel Systems.




Been installing an 11/32 brass sleeve over the bowl vents and I drill 4 holes in em and they work. No more pulling fuel up the tubes and the top of the carb`s cleaner. They work for those situations like mine were the lid touches the scoop or is real close.........


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: Mattax] #1715119
12/26/14 05:51 PM
12/26/14 05:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,155
CT
GTX MATT Offline
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CT
How about running a bigger filter with a drop base? Is that really helping or is the drop base causing other issues worse than a smaller filter?


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: GTX MATT] #1715120
12/26/14 06:01 PM
12/26/14 06:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

How about running a bigger filter with a drop base? Is that really helping or is the drop base causing other issues worse than a smaller filter?




From the testing I did the drop base causes the air
to go up then turn down into the carb... it can cause
disturbance with the direction changes.. but is it
greater or lesser than the small height air cleaner..
I'm sure that at some point its a wash.. but if you
can go to a larger diameter that should help so the air
has a longer area to make the turn

Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: BradH] #1715121
12/26/14 06:03 PM
12/26/14 06:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila Offline
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Az
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

our track unfortunately has some stones lifting off the seal on the return road & after seeing 1 racer get a stone flick up from their front wheel & lodge itself into carbs butterflies, i would never ever run without some kind of filtration on my carb. the car with the stone in the butterflies took off with front brakes locked on & plowed into another racecar before the owner could shut it off. not a happy day for 2 racers that day. i'm using Frams Airhogg air cleaner. it's pretty good, virtualy no difference with it on or off, but i now leave it on.


and if you are going to use a "conventional" round style air filter, get one with a breathable top. Just that much more area that is seldom used.




I found the top lid causes issues on flow... you get
2 different air paths that crash into each other
and in the end you get less into the carb... I also
see that its worse if you have a drop base because
the air is going up first then has to turn down to
get into the carb.. but the side air is plowing into
the lid air ... on the track I dont run a air cleaner




All I can add to this discussion is from my own on-track testing some years ago. I was using a 14" Moroso drop-base housing w/ a K&N 14" x 3" filter and the carb was dialed in for best MPH under the conditions. I swapped to a K&N X-Stream lid and back-to-back testing the car picked up .4-.5 MPH over the standard Moroso lid.

I have limited hood clearance and this was the only way to add filter area I could work out at the time. Although I've heard more than one person p!ss on the X-Stream lid, on my car it helped.


Helped on mine also. I have some issues with it disrupting air flow in to the carb, especially since it covers a lot more area than the inlet area of the carb it is sitting on. If there is an air flow disruption, I would think a lot depends on the distance of the top to the carb inlet. I still think the more filter area you have, the better.


Fastest 300
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: mshred] #1715122
12/26/14 06:07 PM
12/26/14 06:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

I run a 14x5" tall K&N reusable filter...My buddy harassed me to make a pass with it off because the car would pick up.

I removed it and lost a tenth...He couldn't believe it! LOL...FWIW I would rather run it and know that my engine is getting the cleanest air possible instead of take the chance of feeding it dust and other debris that could possibly damage or wear it out quicker. I have seen people do tests where they lost no power with the filter, so hopefully mine is the same way




Did you jet up or down after taking the air cleaner
off... without finding the A/F point that your engine
likes for max power you didnt do anything but change
the A/F ratio.. nothing is ever as easy as.. just
do this or that and this occurs

Re: Air filters on race cars?? *DELETED* [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1715123
12/26/14 06:10 PM
12/26/14 06:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,837
Central Missouri Fort Leonard...
mopar65 Offline
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Post deleted by mopar65


3520 pound race ready 1973 Street/Strip Dodge Dart - Stock stroke 440/727 10.49 @ 125.0 on 93 pump gas & ET Street Radials. More to come... ( SGT Miller) Proudly served 12 years in the US ARMY RESERVES support our troops
Re: Air filters on race cars?? [Re: Crizila] #1715124
12/26/14 06:17 PM
12/26/14 06:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

our track unfortunately has some stones lifting off the seal on the return road & after seeing 1 racer get a stone flick up from their front wheel & lodge itself into carbs butterflies, i would never ever run without some kind of filtration on my carb. the car with the stone in the butterflies took off with front brakes locked on & plowed into another racecar before the owner could shut it off. not a happy day for 2 racers that day. i'm using Frams Airhogg air cleaner. it's pretty good, virtualy no difference with it on or off, but i now leave it on.


and if you are going to use a "conventional" round style air filter, get one with a breathable top. Just that much more area that is seldom used.




I found the top lid causes issues on flow... you get
2 different air paths that crash into each other
and in the end you get less into the carb... I also
see that its worse if you have a drop base because
the air is going up first then has to turn down to
get into the carb.. but the side air is plowing into
the lid air ... on the track I dont run a air cleaner




All I can add to this discussion is from my own on-track testing some years ago. I was using a 14" Moroso drop-base housing w/ a K&N 14" x 3" filter and the carb was dialed in for best MPH under the conditions. I swapped to a K&N X-Stream lid and back-to-back testing the car picked up .4-.5 MPH over the standard Moroso lid.

I have limited hood clearance and this was the only way to add filter area I could work out at the time. Although I've heard more than one person p!ss on the X-Stream lid, on my car it helped.


Helped on mine also. I have some issues with it disrupting air flow in to the carb, especially since it covers a lot more area than the inlet area of the carb it is sitting on. If there is an air flow disruption, I would think a lot depends on the distance of the top to the carb inlet. I still think the more filter area you have, the better.




More air is better... I'm sure that if you run a taller
filter the lid has less effect on it than a shorter
filter.. but air coming in from 2 different directions
and 90* from another does have effect... and the
closer they are the worse things get

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