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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: AndyF]
#1715227
01/06/15 04:53 PM
01/06/15 04:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Air filters are super expensive to test since it requires a giant flow bench. A 14x6 K&N probably flows 2000 cfm at a reasonable depression so it would require a monster flow bench to test. Not too many people have access to that type of equipment.
Thats the thing... when I was working I used a bench
that had either a 20hp or it might have been a 35hp
electric motor to drive the bench... I have no idea
what it could move at max(air flow) but it sure did
get noisy... it was either a 6" or 8" throat that
we would mount the filter housing on(different fixtures)
for all the different shapes and sizes
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: BradH]
#1715228
01/07/15 08:01 AM
01/07/15 08:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
Quote:
If people want to use the K&N formula - then this s how u calculate the surface area of a round filter.
Its circumference x height - Plug in the diameter into this calculator and itll tell you the circ.
Then x by height -
http://www.csgnetwork.com/circle_sphere_area_calculator.html
David Vizard says you need to adjust the height of the filter to account for the top & bottom molding and edge effects. So, your 3" filter calc really should be more like 2-3/4" (or whatever a particular filter measures) when you're trying to come up w/ effective surface area.
Also, for those who question the data I found and posted from tests performed elsewhere, no problem. But if you feel the need to pi$$ on the results, you should probably dig up your own data or -- even better -- conduct your own tests to (in)validate it.
At least I took the time to try and find something more than just a bunch of opinions on the subject.
Yes...the K&N site also says that some compensation for the lid and base lips along with the filter band needs to be taken into account - but the figures I provided are not too far off to be of use.
As far as pissing on your tables.....I'll be happy to refrain from plagueing this thread with basic Math any further......feel free to keep burning any books you dont agree with........
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715229
01/07/15 01:22 PM
01/07/15 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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The "basic math" is knowing what the CFM capability of a given area of filter material is at a specified test pressure. Then you get to factor in all of the other constraints (choke points, capacity limitations, etc.) for the test equipment used when comparing the same amount of filter area across different brands / types. Questioning the results when inconsistencies between what you'd expect to see vs. actual results is reasonable and understood. Calling someone else's test data bogus when you yourself have nothing to show that proves otherwise is just pissin' on it. I don't burn books, but I put a lot less value in unverified opinions over quantifiable test data, even if the methodology may not be ideal. At least that's a starting point for refining the test approach, especially when those inconsistencies show up. G'day mate... and don't let the salties get ya'!
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715231
01/07/15 05:25 PM
01/07/15 05:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
So now Im just struggling to see where I called your data bogus? 
You specifically may not have, but your response triggered a defensive reaction by me where I felt the need to make a general comment about the way some others reacted to my posting of data.
Eh... 
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: BradH]
#1715233
01/07/15 07:14 PM
01/07/15 07:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
Quote:
So now Im just struggling to see where I called your data bogus?
You specifically may not have, but your response triggered a defensive reaction by me where I felt the need to make a general comment about the way some others reacted to my posting of data.
Eh...
Next time aim straight.......or eat two snickers......:p
Fwiw. I'm not making a call on that data table one way or the other.....too many unknowns.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: AndyF]
#1715235
01/07/15 10:56 PM
01/07/15 10:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Andy - I don't disagree. That data I referenced didn't include all the necessary background to fully understand (as I phrased it above) "... all of the other constraints (choke points, capacity limitations, etc.) for the test equipment used when comparing the same amount of filter area across different brands / types."
For example, what if all those tests were based on how much air someone could pull through a 1.56" v x 1.75" throttle race-type 4150 that might dry-flow 925 CFM at the same test pressure? Then it wouldn't be a test of the max flow capabilities for each 3" vs. 4" filter element, and, instead, how many CFM each filter reduced the carb's peak flow capabilities.
Assuming EVERY filter is going to result in at least some amount of restriction, then the smaller delta between the 3" and 4" versions of the same filter types might be explained because the 4" filters aren't being tested to their limits, whereas some of the 3" might be getting right up to their full flow capabilities.
Regardless, my intent was simply to add more data, unfortunately w/o being able to explain the whole test setup.
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715236
01/07/15 10:59 PM
01/07/15 10:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
Next time aim straight.......or eat two snickers......:p
Sawed-off 12-gauge shotguns aren't exactly known for pinpoint accuracy. 
TWO Snickers??? Gawd, my blood sugar level would go into  ; besides, I like Milky Ways better. 
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: BradH]
#1715238
01/07/15 11:29 PM
01/07/15 11:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
Sawed-off 12-gauge shotguns aren't exactly known for pinpoint accuracy. :
Yeah...but they talk louder to a crowd......
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1715239
01/07/15 11:36 PM
01/07/15 11:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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I've been sitting back and following this thread. Really don't have much to add other than my set up. Y'all talkin over my head with the flow stuff Never did make a pass without the filter. Don't know why, just figured there were other area's of the car that needed more attention It is on the "To Do" list if I can ever get back out  14 x 5 K&N with the Extreme top snuggled in an Aero scoop. I figured it should flow enough and send less turbulent air to the carb
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: Moparmal]
#1715242
01/07/15 11:48 PM
01/07/15 11:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
dodge340dart
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
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Here are some results I have found on a slant six (I know not a race engine) but they are interesting. All tests were on a Mustang Chassis Dyno.
With the 1-bbl (1920 Holley) carburetor:
factory OEM filter in factory air cleaner housing
Max Torque : 132.558lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 83.177hp
Avg Torque : 122.779lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 76.279hp
K&N filter in factory air cleaner housing
Max Torque : 134.171lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 83.767hp
Avg Torque : 122.590lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 79.365hp
Improvement over baseline
Max Torque: 1.583lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 0.590hp
Avg Torque: (-0.189)lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 3.086hp
Baseplate only (no filter)
Max Torque : 132.827lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 84.484hp
Avg Torque : 122.213lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 79.088hp
Improvement over baseline
Max Torque: 0.269b-ft
Max Horsepower: 1.307hp
Avg Torque: (-0.566)lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 2.809hp
I will get the data together for the 2-bbl and the 4-bbl carbs/filters and post it as well.
Chris
2011 & 2012 Beaver Springs Dragway Outlaw Street Champion
2012 BSD Friday Street Racer Driver of the Year
3-time Jr. Stock Eliminator
2-time Mean Street Eliminator
'69 340 Dart 1.500 60ft, 11.359et, 117.08mph
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: dodge340dart]
#1715243
01/07/15 11:56 PM
01/07/15 11:56 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
dodge340dart
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
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Here are the results from the slant six on the Mustang Chassis Dyno.
These results are with a 2-bbl (Carter BBD)
factory air filter and Super-Six air cleaner housing
Max Torque : 140.414lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 93.337hp
Avg Torque : 131.983lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 88.101hp
K&N air filter and Super-Six air cleaner housing
Max Torque : 142.708lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 95.763hp
Avg Torque : 135.147lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 90.406hp
Baseplate only
Max Torque : 150.937lb-ft
Max Horsepower: 103.493hp
Avg Torque : 143.384lb-ft
Avg Horsepower: 96.418hp
Let me find the 4bbl data on the same slant.
Chris
2011 & 2012 Beaver Springs Dragway Outlaw Street Champion
2012 BSD Friday Street Racer Driver of the Year
3-time Jr. Stock Eliminator
2-time Mean Street Eliminator
'69 340 Dart 1.500 60ft, 11.359et, 117.08mph
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Re: Air filters on race cars??
[Re: dodge340dart]
#1715244
01/08/15 12:05 AM
01/08/15 12:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
dodge340dart
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Montgomery, PA
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The slant six with a 390 Holley 4-bbl. 14"x2" open element filter/housing (WIX) Max Torque : 155.596lb-ft Max Horsepower: 113.730hp Avg Torque : 150.006lb-ft Avg Horsepower: 103.531hp 14"x3" open element filter/housing (WIX) Max Torque : 156.068lb-ft Max Horsepower: 113.584hp Avg Torque : 150.271lb-ft Avg Horsepower: 103.686hp 14"x3" open element filter/housing (K&N) Max Torque : 154.269lb-ft Max Horsepower: 112.463hp Avg Torque : 148.416lb-ft Avg Horsepower: 102.434hp 14" baseplate only Max Torque : 158.393lb-ft Max Horsepower: 115.839hp Avg Torque : 152.777lb-ft Avg Horsepower: 105.826hp A run from the above test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlkXawoGFLoChris
2011 & 2012 Beaver Springs Dragway Outlaw Street Champion
2012 BSD Friday Street Racer Driver of the Year
3-time Jr. Stock Eliminator
2-time Mean Street Eliminator
'69 340 Dart 1.500 60ft, 11.359et, 117.08mph
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, 
, 
and trust me, it helps a LOT in the aggression dept. after 4 hours of bashin although we play a few ballads...... 
