Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: BradH]
#2319844
06/12/17 01:10 PM
06/12/17 01:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Wow....... Bringing back an oldie
The cheapest price I currently see for these heads is just over $800/pr, bare.
Depending on what you did for guide replacement and what brand of valves you bought.......
The heads, replacing the guides, valves, valve job.......you'd be within $100-200 of just buying the real Victors......... But then the Victors really could stand to have a couple hundred $$$ put into them after purchase, so the real difference in cost is really about $400, for both heads "prepped" with decent parts, but no porting.
For someone looking for what I like to refer to as "low effort" porting(stage 1 type), you'd likely end up with slightly better numbers from the same amount of effort by using the Pro Comps, since the chambers are farther away from the valves and the bowls are a little bigger "as cast".
With all the current offerings for bb mopar heads available right now...... I think either real or copycat Victors are a bit of a tough sell for the "budget oriented" build.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: BradH]
#2319905
06/12/17 02:29 PM
06/12/17 02:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I don't go to the track that much anymore, but I've never seen a set of these on a motor there.
It would be interesting to know just how many sets have actually been sold.
I was on the T&D site the other day and noticed they offer rockers for them, and it's a different part number than for the Victors.
IMO, in a mildly reworked std port configuration the offset rocker buys you almost nothing. It these heads could use std rockers, I think they'd sell more of them.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: krautrock]
#2320441
06/13/17 10:26 AM
06/13/17 10:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 274 Granbury TX
Prochargedmopar
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,The promaxx/sidewinder heads have better guides. I thought I saw that speedmaster had recently stepped up and started installing better guides too. Not sure though.
How can I check hardness in the one Ive got?
"Old" member Registered: Sep 2001 Lost my credentials, I'm Back!! LOL 71 Ply Satellite Procharged 73 Dodge Dart Swinger 73 Ford F-100 390/Sniper efi/back to carb 01 Town and Country Limited 08 Dodge 2500 6.7 5" Deleted 02 Mercedes C230K 19 Camry
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: BradH]
#2320500
06/13/17 12:22 PM
06/13/17 12:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Lap the valves after guide replacement? Good luck with that. Heat the head and press them in. Then get a hone to fit each valve to chosen guide. Let me know how those guides work out for you in just about any of the Chinese heads. (Ill give you a clue....... You won't need to heat the head to put them in) I don't know why I have a couple thousand dollars invested in equipment for properly sizing valve guides....... When all I needed was a simple flex hone for $14.99. Oh wait....... I do have some of those flex hones.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: Prochargedmopar]
#2320506
06/13/17 12:30 PM
06/13/17 12:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544 Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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It doesnt really work like that....lol..and the Pro Comps use an odd valve guide OD, not the same as the ones you posted.A flex hone is a finishing hone, not a sizing hone. It follows the exisiting bore and parent material so to speak. The guides distort slightly when installed, typically needing a quick reamer, or at least a rigid hone first to straighten them and size them properly.You will get pretty tired using a flex hone to size a valve guide, and then, you will have a really really weird concave/convex and unusual guide ID.....most likely oversized and all wallowed out.
Last edited by CompWedgeEngines; 06/13/17 12:30 PM.
RIP Monte Smith
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#2322641
06/17/17 02:45 PM
06/17/17 02:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 274 Granbury TX
Prochargedmopar
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Mad scientist project? Couldnt a person get a set of these? https://www.ebay.com/itm/222383269919 Heat the head and press them in. Then get a hone to fit each valve to chosen guide. https://www.ebay.com/itm/352079560164 There is also a 120 grit version https://www.ebay.com/itm/352079560117 I see the o.d. of these is about .558" or 14.18mm Checking all 8 with a small bore gauge they "feel" exactly the same from top to bottom when I pull it through the hole. Measure out to be .3420 or 8.69mm I figured I could get the proper guides. (not sure where yet) Press these out and some new ones in. (air hammer and guide installer/removal tool) Use a $30 HSS reamer from ebay that is .001 under size or dead nuts depending on the valve stem diameter that I get. Then use the bottle brush hone to bring them within 1/2 thou (.0005) so the valves fit perfectly. Guess not. No matter which way I slice it it seems I must shell out $1200 to $2000 for a set of heads BB or otherwise. I'm determined to build a BB on a budget after this SB is done. Then lap the valves. It doesnt really work like that....lol..and the Pro Comps use an odd valve guide OD, not the same as the ones you posted.A flex hone is a finishing hone, not a sizing hone. It follows the exisiting bore and parent material so to speak. The guides distort slightly when installed, typically needing a quick reamer, or at least a rigid hone first to straighten them and size them properly.You will get pretty tired using a flex hone to size a valve guide, and then, you will have a really really weird concave/convex and unusual guide ID.....most likely oversized and all wallowed out. I see the o.d. of these is about .558" or 14.18mm Checking all 8 with a small bore gauge they "feel" exactly the same from top to bottom when I pull it through the hole. Measure out to be .3420 or 8.69mm I figured I could get the proper guides. (not sure where yet) Press these out and some new ones in. (air hammer and guide installer/removal tool) Use a $30 HSS reamer from ebay that is .001 under size or dead nuts depending on the valve stem diameter that I get. Then use the bottle brush hone to bring them within 1/2 thou (.0005) so the valves fit perfectly. Guess not. No matter which way I slice it it seems I must shell out $1200 to $2000 for a set of heads BB or otherwise. I'm determined to build a BB on a budget after this SB is done.
Last edited by prochargedmopar; 06/17/17 02:46 PM.
"Old" member Registered: Sep 2001 Lost my credentials, I'm Back!! LOL 71 Ply Satellite Procharged 73 Dodge Dart Swinger 73 Ford F-100 390/Sniper efi/back to carb 01 Town and Country Limited 08 Dodge 2500 6.7 5" Deleted 02 Mercedes C230K 19 Camry
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: BradH]
#2322645
06/17/17 02:53 PM
06/17/17 02:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Don't let us tell you what will or won't work....... You've got a plan...... Go for it!!
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: BradH]
#2322686
06/17/17 05:32 PM
06/17/17 05:32 PM
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crabman173
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crabman173
Unregistered
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FWIW I worked at a shop that sold lots of Pro Comp heads mostly Chevy and Fords but---The guides are yellow and look like bronze but are the worst nightmare of a material I have ever seen--folks would send heads back that were run for one week and the guides were just Stupid loose worn out to just crazy sloppy--this happened again and again--Like Compwedge points out they are a very odd diameter --so very hard to find some to replace with --and by then you are out of the "good deal" part--right?? They are junk compared to the Sidewinders etc--the material of the aluminum is "frosty" and brittle you have to just face the facts they are so poor they are almost not Real heads--they look like heads but......even the helicoils they use in the BBC heads are a stupid size and you can't replace them with SAE USA helicoils to fix now..I use my fair share of China parts--many are great but anything with Procomp ( guess that is now Speedmaster to throw you off the scent) is total junk not worth the UPS as far as what I have had in my hands and what I have observed and yes...I was wrong about the Callies forgings last week --oh well
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: ]
#2322708
06/17/17 06:28 PM
06/17/17 06:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
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FWIW I worked at a shop that sold lots of Pro Comp heads mostly Chevy and Fords but---The guides are yellow and look like bronze but are the worst nightmare of a material I have ever seen--folks would send heads back that were run for one week and the guides were just Stupid loose worn out to just crazy sloppy--this happened again and again--Like Compwedge points out they are a very odd diameter --so very hard to find some to replace with --and by then you are out of the "good deal" part--right?? They are junk compared to the Sidewinders etc--the material of the aluminum is "frosty" and brittle you have to just face the facts they are so poor they are almost not Real heads--they look like heads but......even the helicoils they use in the BBC heads are a stupid size and you can't replace them with SAE USA helicoils to fix now..I use my fair share of China parts--many are great but anything with Procomp ( guess that is now Speedmaster to throw you off the scent) is total junk not worth the UPS as far as what I have had in my hands and what I have observed and yes...I was wrong about the Callies forgings last week --oh well Love this..............Some want cheap? Well, you got cheap............
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: BradH]
#2322721
06/17/17 07:03 PM
06/17/17 07:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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In reality....... The china stuff does keep getting better. I'm sure if someone in charge of the pro comp head deal decided they needed better guides installed when the heads were built...... It would get done, and the heads would probably only go up $10-20.
Their SBC Dart 200 copy is really pretty popular, and from what I understand..... Don't have many problems. That head is sold under a lot if different labels.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: BradH]
#2322949
06/18/17 10:13 AM
06/18/17 10:13 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 5,183
Porter67
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Can someone post pics of the guide issues of the small block pro comp head that they have seen first hand or worked on?
I just worked on a new set of sidewinder castings new in the box, but bought off ebay, the customer paid 1k I think, they were in the same thin china cardboard type box just like the pro comps and the guides are exactly the same as used in the pro comps small block mopar heads.
Side by side there is next to no difference in the small block sidewinder vs a pro comp as both being from the box.
In 12 sets of castings of the small block heads ive not found one casting flaw.
I dont know if people are going off pro comps past or generalization of the brand or china.
They are clearly a budget head, I ask these questions because when the mopar small block heads first came out, all the internet buzz was they didnt even have a single helicoil in them and that was never the case.
My street racer ran a 6.04 1/8 last fall at the track with a simple fogger with a near .700 lift solid, small diameter spring and pro comp castings.
I dont know how they would work with a big roller, springs, ect...Im sure they could pushed to failure, not to detract from things but look at the sprinkler mopar heads that used to leak from cnc machine or from the box or after 3-4 runs that couldnt be welded, many still use and support them.
Everything has there limit, the small block mopar procomps are not marketed as a serious race type/heavy hitter type head, because they are clearly not. People just want them to be, but on the cheap, and most know, cheap and race dont blend well together.
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: Porter67]
#2323003
06/18/17 12:14 PM
06/18/17 12:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 274 Granbury TX
Prochargedmopar
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Granbury TX
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Can someone post pics of the guide issues of the small block pro comp head that they have seen first hand or worked on?
I just worked on a new set of sidewinder castings new in the box, but bought off ebay, the customer paid 1k I think, they were in the same thin china cardboard type box just like the pro comps and the guides are exactly the same as used in the pro comps small block mopar heads.
Side by side there is next to no difference in the small block sidewinder vs a pro comp as both being from the box.
In 12 sets of castings of the small block heads ive not found one casting flaw.
I dont know if people are going off pro comps past or generalization of the brand or china.
They are clearly a budget head, I ask these questions because when the mopar small block heads first came out, all the internet buzz was they didnt even have a single helicoil in them and that was never the case.
My street racer ran a 6.04 1/8 last fall at the track with a simple fogger with a near .700 lift solid, small diameter spring and pro comp castings.
I dont know how they would work with a big roller, springs, ect...Im sure they could pushed to failure, not to detract from things but look at the sprinkler mopar heads that used to leak from cnc machine or from the box or after 3-4 runs that couldnt be welded, many still use and support them.
Everything has there limit, the small block mopar procomps are not marketed as a serious race type/heavy hitter type head, because they are clearly not. People just want them to be, but on the cheap, and most know, cheap and race dont blend well together.
I keep wondering how ATC sells 50 or 150 heads (shows items sold on ebay) and still has 99.7% positive ratings and no complaints on heads in reviews. Only thing I could do is try a set and see. I don't think a .515 lift cam is gonna put much stress on guides or spring seat area. Exhaust heat from turbo on the other hand just may stress it a little. :-) Most likely I'll cut this one up and then buy BB sidewinders when the time arrives.
Last edited by prochargedmopar; 06/18/17 02:01 PM.
"Old" member Registered: Sep 2001 Lost my credentials, I'm Back!! LOL 71 Ply Satellite Procharged 73 Dodge Dart Swinger 73 Ford F-100 390/Sniper efi/back to carb 01 Town and Country Limited 08 Dodge 2500 6.7 5" Deleted 02 Mercedes C230K 19 Camry
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: BradH]
#2323032
06/18/17 01:13 PM
06/18/17 01:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I don't feel cutting one up really tells you much about how well they'll hold up in use.
For that, there is no substitution for putting them into service, and inspecting them after they have been in use a while.
The guides will either hold up, or they won't.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2323058
06/18/17 02:13 PM
06/18/17 02:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 274 Granbury TX
Prochargedmopar
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I don't feel cutting one up really tells you much about how well they'll hold up in use.
For that, there is no substitution for putting them into service, and inspecting them after they have been in use a while.
The guides will either hold up, or they won't.
Well I have no way to check metal hardness so if I cut it up it is only to view the structure of water jackets and port wall thickness while practicing my porting skills. We'll see.
"Old" member Registered: Sep 2001 Lost my credentials, I'm Back!! LOL 71 Ply Satellite Procharged 73 Dodge Dart Swinger 73 Ford F-100 390/Sniper efi/back to carb 01 Town and Country Limited 08 Dodge 2500 6.7 5" Deleted 02 Mercedes C230K 19 Camry
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Re: Procomp BB head flow test
[Re: BradH]
#2323857
06/19/17 10:23 PM
06/19/17 10:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,361 Wild West
M_D
pro stock
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pro stock
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Posts: 1,361
Wild West
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A sonic tester may be worth considering for checking the port wall thickness while saving the would be sacrificial head for potential resale. While one or two sectioned ports may give a general idea of the thickness on a particular model of a casting it's far from a guarantee all ports will be in the same ballpark. I also wouldn't have much confidence that the water jackets were an exact copy between brands, even if the exterior appeared to be.
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