Moparts

Procomp BB head flow test ==> LAST UPDATE

Posted By: BradH

Procomp BB head flow test ==> LAST UPDATE - 09/26/13 11:35 PM

Long story short, I recently picked up a Procomp BB head to use for what I'm referring to as my "crash test dummy" porting R&D head. I tried to locate a single 75 cc Victor like my last set to do the same thing, but Jesse Robinson (RAMM) and I swapped some PMs and he confirmed that I could use a Procomp "clone" for the same purpose.

Before I purchased the head directly from Procomp in SoCal, I contacted Brian (ou812) at IMM about doing a good valve job on the head before I bothered to mess with it. Since his shop is only about an hour's drive from Procomp, I had them ship it directly to IMM, and he sent it to me once the work was done, along w/ a couple of Edelbrock valves as used w/ Victor heads.

To be blunt, other than the valve job, the Procomp head has enough fairly "ugly" things about it that I skipped even bothering to do a "before" flow test and grabbed the Makita. However, after having some questions re: the results, I picked the best looking (minimal casting flash, best short turn, etc.) of the clone's remaining three unported intake runners and picked the #3/6 for an “out-of-the-box plus a good valve job” test. That's shown in column A. This is the best I can do at this point to provide a “before” test.

Column B is the results from the first round of what I referred to as “basic prep” on #5/4 based on what looked to need work. This consisted of trimming down some big “humps” in the as-cast walls, cleaning up (but not reprofiling) the SSR, blending the valve job into the bowl, narrowing the guide, working the transition from the seat insert into the SSR, blending the CNC'd port opening, and touching up the chamber where the valve job had a stepped transition into it.

Column C is the results from doing some additional work to #5/4, such as widening the short turn, opening the wall near the plug more, and opening the bowl deeper on the exhaust-side of the port. Also, until now everything was primarily a cuttered finish, but I hit the reworked SSR w/ a 60-grit flapper and cleaned up the bowl w/ a 60-grit roll. No actual runner enlargement over the original design size was ever done.

Column D is the improvement between A and C, FWIW.

Lift ------ A ----- B ------ C ----- D
.050 --- 33.8 --- 31.6 --- 32.0 --- (1.8 )
.100 --- 67.6 --- 65.9 --- 66.7 --- (.9)
.200 -- 136.7-- 139.7 -- 141.6 --- 4.9
.300 -- 192.6 -- 202.4 -- 206.6 -- 14.0
.400 -- 245.2 -- 259.5 -- 264.3 -- 19.1
.450 -- 265.8 -- 281.8 -- 287.1 -- 21.3
.500 -- 287.1 -- 302.2 -- 303.9 -- 16.8
.550 -- 293.8 -- 317.0 -- 318.7 -- 24.9
.600 -- 304.5 -- 325.8 -- 325.8 -- 21.3
.650 -- 313.4 -- 333.1 -- 331.2 -- 17.8
.700 -- 315.2 -- 338.8 -- 337.0 -- 21.8

Something in the latest changes have begun to trade off .300-.500" improvements for small decreases above .600".

Despite having a 2.20" intake valve, the intake opening is only about 2.25" x 1.20" (standard BBM, not Max Wedge) which is more in line with a common small-block Chevy runner opening.

BTW, I have no intention of running Procomp heads and this purchase was strictly to give me a casting I could try and prototype some Edelbrock Victor standard-size ports of my own.

Posted By: RAMM

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 12:13 AM

Any backcut on thevalve. Jrob
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 02:29 AM

30*
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 04:45 AM

Quote:


Column D is the improvement between A and C, FWIW.
---------------------------------------------Sport
Lift ------ A ----- B ------ C ----- D -------Eddy
.050 --- 33.8 --- 31.6 --- 32.0 --- (1.8 )----NA-
.100 --- 67.6 --- 65.9 --- 66.7 --- (.9)-----71.5
.200 -- 136.7-- 139.7 -- 141.6 --- 4.9------152.8
.300 -- 192.6 -- 202.4 -- 206.6 -- 14.0-----219.4
.400 -- 245.2 -- 259.5 -- 264.3 -- 19.1-----270.7
.450 -- 265.8 -- 281.8 -- 287.1 -- 21.3-----288.4
.500 -- 287.1 -- 302.2 -- 303.9 -- 16.8-----298.0
.550 -- 293.8 -- 317.0 -- 318.7 -- 24.9-----306.3
.600 -- 304.5 -- 325.8 -- 325.8 -- 21.3-----311.7
.650 -- 313.4 -- 333.1 -- 331.2 -- 17.8-----311.7
.700 -- 315.2 -- 338.8 -- 337.0 -- 21.8-----309.9

Something in the latest changes have begun to trade off .300-.500" improvements for small decreases above .600".

Despite having a 2.20" intake valve, the intake opening is only about 2.25" x 1.20" (standard



Thanks for your posting on this, I dont know if using the Procomp head is a valid comparison or not to a actual Victor head.

For comparison purposes, I added my ported Eddy RPM heads flow numbers with a 2.14 valve, the intake opening is 2.50" x 1.24"

IMO, that ProComp head has some room for improvement, between .100-.450 lift.

And my heads could use some improvement from .450 on , as Eddy RPM,s can flow 320 or so @ .600+

Brad, had to get something going for you. You have some heavy hitters involved on this one. Yourself, Brian , and Jessie
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 06:54 AM

I've found improvements in the .500 lift range and up by widening the bowl/roof area. You might try blending the bottom cuts one at a time.
Posted By: RAMM

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 12:00 PM

The Pro-Comps are identical to the Eddy's in every single aspect with the exception of appearance-right down the water jackets and how much material there is. I tried a CNC machined venturi shape below the seat into the bowl as that has really worked in the past. It did not work all that well on these, I think I missed the angle of attack. There is a ton of material in the bowls-do not be afraid to make them any shape you want. The S.S. is narrow in width and to short-it is critical to get right for low lift numbers to be decent.The valve job has very little impact on these heads for some reason. I have tried every combo of angles and with a 50* seat the numbers don't really change. I will tell you that raising the port and filling the floor does work for these heads--I cannot figure out why they wouldn't cast them this way? Valve position relative to the bore is the biggest problem with Mopar's B engines as we all know. Heavy angle milling on these is your friend. I have taken as much as .300" - 0", this moves valves 2.25 *--it works extremely well. I'm about to get serious with a set and move guides to where they need to be and see what happens. This is all I can share for now. J.Rob
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 04:01 PM

Quote:

You have some heavy hitters involved on this one. Yourself,...



The only thing "heavy" about me is that I've gained 45#s since getting married 15 years ago and having 3 kids. This is just a hobby for me, while Jesse & Brian do this stuff for a living.

Regardless, what I'm showing here are the "C" results from above vs. the average of all 8 #s from my Hughes CNC Victors. One of my questions in this effort is how close I can come to those sort of results w/o having to increase the volume significantly.

Lift ---- C ------ H -
.050 --- 32.0 --- 33.3
.100 --- 66.7 --- 71.1
.200 -- 141.6 -- 153.6
.300 -- 206.6 -- 221.6
.400 -- 264.3 -- 273.1
.450 -- 287.1 -- 294.1
.500 -- 303.9 -- 310.2
.550 -- 318.7 -- 322.7
.600 -- 325.8 -- 336.3
.650 -- 331.2 -- 343.0
.700 -- 337.0 -- 346.1

Given Hughes opens up the port entry to 2.40" x 1.30" and, according to their specs, increases the runner volume by 30+ ccs over the advertised OOB Victor head, I'm not sure how much of an apples-to-apples comparison it is.

I am considering a couple of larger-than-standard entry sizes, too, but nothing as large as a Max Wedge.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 04:27 PM

Brad I don't want to tell you what to do as you are doing fine by yourself BUT at this stage if you want to step up your porting program get yourself some method of measuring air-speed. Bruce on the flowbench website has a great tool for both the intakes and exhaust.
Posted By: RAMM

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 04:41 PM

Increasing intake width is very important with these. Stock narrow port window cause very abrupt width increase at short side leading to turbulence and stalling at the .650" and up. These things need to go Max Wedge-. All of this still won't fix the poor low/midlift numbers though. J.Rob
Posted By: d7cook

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 06:12 PM

Quote:

Increasing intake width is very important with these............. All of this still won't fix the poor low/midlift numbers though. J.Rob



Did someone say width?



And yes the low/mid lift numbers aren't much to talk about but they do get to 366 cfm by .600 lift.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 08:14 PM

Quote:

Brad I don't want to tell you what to do as you are doing fine by yourself BUT at this stage if you want to step up your porting program get yourself some method of measuring air-speed. Bruce on the flowbench website has a great tool for both the intakes and exhaust.


I actually do have a stand-alone manometer and J-tipped probe... but simply haven't used them much over the years. The intake probe that Bruce offers is much more compact than mine and may be something I pick up to help.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 08:17 PM

Quote:

Did someone say width?


Is that MCH's Max Wedge program on a "real" Victor?
Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 08:29 PM

"Valve position relative to the bore is the biggest problem with Mopar's B engines as we all know."
Are they positioned to close to the bores edge and not centered enough? What is the valve angle of the BB Mopar? Isn't it 15 degrees?
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 08:34 PM

Quote:

"Valve position relative to the bore is the biggest problem with Mopar's B engines as we all know."
Are they positioned to close to the bores edge and not centered enough? What is the valve angle of the BB Mopar? Isn't it 15 degrees?



It's the location more than being close to the bore...but yes they are too close to the bore as well.
Posted By: d7cook

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 09:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Did someone say width?


Is that MCH's Max Wedge program on a "real" Victor?



Yes. I've posted the pic a while back and still haven't used them but plan on doing a 500" motor soon.

I admire the people like you who still do there own thing with cylinder heads but I don't have the time anymore. It's hard enough for me just to build the short block and transmissions and keep up maintenance to get a car to the track. I buy heads during Summits 10 or 15% off sale in winter and ship them off for CNC porting. I port match up an intake and I'm done with the top half.
Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/27/13 09:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"Valve position relative to the bore is the biggest problem with Mopar's B engines as we all know."
Are they positioned to close to the bores edge and not centered enough? What is the valve angle of the BB Mopar? Isn't it 15 degrees?



It's the location more than being close to the bore...but yes they are too close to the bore as well.



What's wrong with the position, are there any heads that correct it?
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/28/13 12:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

"Valve position relative to the bore is the biggest problem with Mopar's B engines as we all know."
Are they positioned to close to the bores edge and not centered enough? What is the valve angle of the BB Mopar? Isn't it 15 degrees?



It's the location more than being close to the bore...but yes they are too close to the bore as well.



What's wrong with the position, are there any heads that correct it?



Yes, B1's!
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/29/13 05:01 PM

Quote:

... raising the port and filling the floor does work for these heads--I cannot figure out why they wouldn't cast them this way?


I'm sure once Edelbrock decides to make that sort of change that Procomp will shortly after.
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/30/13 04:34 PM

Brad what's the current throat I.D.?
What does the roof width measure by the guide boss?
What width is the short turn now?

Std. port opening is just too small for serious flow....
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 09/30/13 07:24 PM

Measured the throat (~90% of valve), but don't have #s for all of the other areas you asked about.

Measured the port opening and IIRC it was slightly smaller than I expected... maybe 2.25" x 1.98"? Makes more sense why Hughes went "semi-Max Wedge" at 2.40" x 1.30" with their "standard 440" CNC version, but not a full 2.65" x 1.35" MW.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/03/13 10:02 PM

Quote:

Increasing intake width is very important with these. Stock narrow port window cause very abrupt width increase at short side leading to turbulence and stalling at the .650" and up. These things need to go Max Wedge-. All of this still won't fix the poor low/midlift numbers though. J.Rob


I probably shouldn't admit this here , but I've been looking at a bunch of SBC LS7 head stuff (Hmmm... possibly comparable port volume, same size 2.20" intake valve, good flow #s w/ standard CNC job and shows improvements w/ additional work ), and reading old stuff on SpeedTalk posted by some people like Darin Morgan, and it's given me some ideas.

1. Darin Morgain stated "Some mistakenly believe that if turbulence occurs after peak valve lift that its of no consequence. Nothing could be further from the truth! I have taken heads that went turbulent or flat out went backwards (which is the case for the LS3 and LS7 heads) after .650 lift and decreased low lift flow in order to make it keep going smoothly up to 1". The end result was more power every time and no loss in low end TQ. The head must be smooth all the way up past peak lift."

Well, those CNC'd heads I have definitely flatten out above .650-.700"; when Dwayne had 'em on his bench they actually started to back up above .650". On the other hand, I haven't bothered to test my "clone" head above .700", but so far the modified port seems to be pretty smooth all the way up the curve, except for some odd manometer fluctuation down at .200" or .300" (I don't recall exactly where right now). Guess it's time to screw the valve down another .100" and see what's up.

2. Both Jesse & Brian commented on the standard BBM port opening size being an issue, either as an outright flow restriction or acting as a choke point that causes the air to do "bad things" when it squeezes past that point and then has to slow down again over the SSR.

I'm not interested in hacking the opening to a full MW size simply because of the lack of an intake I believe is suitable for my combination that is that big. However, I'm looking into what the high x wide constraints are for something that starts out as a standard-port intake and considering going "a bit" wider and "a bit more" taller at the entrance and raising the roof a correspoding amount until it gets to the guide boss, tapering it down into the bowl.

Hughes' 2.40" x 1.30" "standard 440" port may be about the limit, but I'm curious if 2.35" x 1.35" would be better considering it was the extra height that required welding my RB M1 4150 intake's roof on the bank w/ the most core shift. That would still require a lot of to go that big on a standard-port intake... been there & done that w/ the Frankenstein M1.

I know some heads seem to respond really well going from standard to MW (Indy SR & EZ come to mind) and am curious how the Victor "clone" responds to a change in that direction. Funny that Edelbrock doesn't show any difference between their advertised flow #s for their standard Victor and MW Victor to give me an idea of what might happen, though.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/03/13 10:18 PM

1. Darin Morgain stated "Some mistakenly believe that if turbulence occurs after peak valve lift that its of no consequence. Nothing could be further from the truth! I have taken heads that went turbulent or flat out went backwards (which is the case for the LS3 and LS7 heads) after .650 lift and decreased low lift flow in order to make it keep going smoothly up to 1". The end result was more power every time and no loss in low end TQ. The head must be smooth all the way up past peak lift."





And that my Friend is why I went digital on my flowbench. I can pick up turbulence way before you can with fluid manometers. my son can be 36 feet away and working on his car and hear a head going bad. This is also why lots of guys are testing heads at 40 inches of depression or more at times.
Posted By: MattW

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/04/13 12:13 AM


I probably shouldn't admit this here , but I've been looking at a bunch of SBC LS7 head stuff (Hmmm... possibly comparable port volume, same size 2.20" intake valve, good flow #s w/ standard CNC job and shows improvements w/ additional work ), and reading old stuff on SpeedTalk posted by some people like Darin Morgan, and it's given me some ideas.

This I believe is how we learn stuff. I personally dont care about make or model. If it works apply it if you can and move on.

Great post. Matt
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/04/13 07:30 AM

How exactly did you widen the short turn? Pics along with these posts would be EXCELLENT!
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/04/13 01:26 PM

Quote:

How exactly did you widen the short turn? Pics along with these posts would be EXCELLENT!


My work on the short turn was trying to make the transition from the corners into the bowl more gradual and "broader", if that makes any sense. I didn't touch the center of the SSR out of concern about lowering it, since I figured it could use all the height possible at this point.

My photographic skills are even more rudimentary than my porting skills , but I'll see if I can take some any that actually show what I'm working on.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/04/13 11:54 PM

Good news: I went back into the port, opened up the runner from 2.25 x 1.98 to 2.35 x 1.25; widened the short turn corners, laid back the SSR slightly, opened up the channel between the cylinder wall-side of the guide and blended that area more into the bowl.

Bad news: For all the work I did, the improvements were basically a wash... picked up a couple CFM at lower mid lifts, lost a couple of CFM at high lifts, and I confirmed the port starts to back up between .700" and .750"

Good news: I took a bunch of pictures.

Bad news: None of them are downloaded, and I'm sure a large % of them aren't going to be very good once I can review what I took.

Good news: I finally did some probing w/ the J-tipped velocity probe.

Bad news: I wasn't able to get very good readings and / or anything that looked "right".

Overall: A waste of my time.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/11/13 03:42 AM

this info wont be directly applicable to the std port heads, but i think it will give a good idea of what the differences are in flow between the new version heads vs the original ones that had the chamber farther away from the valves.

i had someone send me a MW Victor head they just got so i could flow it, and compare to some tests i have of the earlier version.
unfortunately, even this comparison isnt really "apples to apples".
the previous test was done in '09 on the version that comes with the valves, and the seats already cut.
that head i just flowed as it came right out of the box with the Edelbrock supplied valves.
this recent test was on a head that was bought as a "bare head", meaning unfinished guides, no valves, and uncut seats.
i honed the guides just enough to get the valves in, then cut the seats how i would normally do for these heads, but that isnt the same type of valve job as how they come when the seats are done at Edelbrock.
also, i used some Manley valves that are for an Indy head, so the exact shape of the valve is slightly different.
nonetheless, the difference in flow between the two heads, especially in the lower-mid lifts, is more than what i would expect to see by just changing the valves and tweeking the valve seat.
the new chambers are tucked in pretty tight around the valves, and there just isnt as much room for the air to exit the port......until you get the valve way off the seat.

so, my reason for posting this is, if the Procomp head is patterned after the original Victor head, then if you got some of the current Victor heads, you are probably not going to see low and mid-lift flow numbers like what you got out of the Procomp head without further reworking of the chamber to unshroud the valves.

anyway.....here is how the two chambers affect the MW heads

A- original Victor MW head, Edelbrock valves and valve job
B- latest Victor MW head, Manley valves, PRH valve job, very minor blending in bowl under seat

valve sizes for both tests are 2.25" intake/ 1.81" exhaust.
no chamber mods to either head.

intake:

lift-----A/B
.100--67.4/62.8
.200-141.3/118.3
.300-212.5/174.9
.400-259.2/228.1
.500-289.9/283.1
.550-306.0/308.5
.600-318.7/331.7
.650-328.3/329.1
.700-336.0/330.9
.750-347.5/338.4
.800-348.3/338.4

exhaust:

lift----A/B
.100--52.7/54.1
.200-109.2/99.2
.300-156.7/147.5
.400-191.8/183.5
.500-209.4/207.0
.550-214.5/214.5
.600-218.4/218.2
.650-222.3/220.7
.700-223.1/223.1
.750-224.3/224.3
.800-224.3/224.3

one other thing....and Brian can probably answer this, since i have done very little with Victor heads.....this new head seemed like the intake short turn was shaped differently than how i remembered the original Victor heads as being.
this new head had what i would describe as a more "normal" final approach from the floor to the seat.
i had recalled the earlier Victors as having the floor start to fall away pretty far away from the seat.
it reminded me more of a stage 6 head floor, whereas this head didnt remind of a stage 6 at all.

EDIT:
i saw the pics on the other post, and that Procomp head definitely has the early style chamber.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/11/13 04:18 AM

Quote:

... my reason for posting this is, if the Procomp head is patterned after the original Victor head, then if you got some of the current Victor heads, you are probably not going to see low and mid-lift flow numbers like what you got out of the Procomp head without further reworking of the chamber to unshroud the valves.


Well, the spare set of Victors I have were the last set of the old style a parts warehouse priced at a "blowout" deal on RacingJunk a couple of years ago.

Also, thanks for all the info above.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/11/13 04:27 AM

Quote:

i had recalled the earlier Victors as having the floor start to fall away pretty far away from the seat.
it reminded me more of a stage 6 head floor, whereas this head didnt remind of a stage 6 at all.


Funny you should say that... when I saw the air speed increase so much at the short turn on the Procomp (like I mentioned in the other post), my first thought was maybe I needed to drop the approach to the bowl like I seem to recall you'd do w/ a Stage VI.

FWIW, here's a cutaway view of the early Victor's intake runner.


Attached picture 7883574-EarlyVictorintakecutawayview.png
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/11/13 01:32 PM

For anyone who wasn't aware I started a related post that also has some crappy pictures I took, look HERE.

Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/24/13 07:58 PM

Figured I'd post one last update before putting the Procomp head aside for a while. This has been a side project simply because I wanted to know what I could come up with myself for future reference, especially with my having a completely untouched set of the original Victors on hand.

So....
- A, B & C were what I'd posted previously above

- D is the result from what I mentioned on 10.4.2013 as “I went back into the port, opened up the runner from 2.25 x 1.198 to 2.35 x 1.25; widened the short turn corners, laid back the SSR slightly, opened up the channel between the cylinder wall-side of the guide and blended that area more into the bowl.”

- E is what I did in response to some feedback here, especially after seeing the high-lift #s start to go the wrong way between B & C and C & D. This work can be summed up as widening and laying back the SSR more, opening up the long-wall side of the entry to 1.30”, cleaning up some “stuff” in the chamber and doing what I expect is the final blending & polishing on this particular runner.

Lift ------ A ------ B ------ C ------ D ------ E
.050 --- 33.8 --- 31.6 --- 32.0 --- 31.6 --- 31.6
.100 --- 67.6 --- 65.9 --- 66.7 --- 66.3 --- 67.1
.200 -- 136.7 -- 139.7 -- 141.6 -- 142.6 -- 143.6
.300 -- 192.6 -- 202.4 -- 206.6 -- 208.0 -- 209.4
.400 -- 245.2 -- 259.5 -- 264.3 -- 264.3 -- 267.4
.450 -- 265.8 -- 281.8 -- 287.1 -- 287.1 -- 287.1
.500 -- 287.1 -- 302.2 -- 303.9 -- 306.3 -- 309.8
.550 -- 293.8 -- 317.0 -- 318.7 -- 318.7 -- 322.3
.600 -- 304.5 -- 325.8 -- 325.8 -- 327.4 -- 329.4
.650 -- 313.4 -- 333.1 -- 331.2 -- 331.2 -- 335.0
.700 -- 315.2 -- 338.8 -- 337.0 -- 335.0 -- 340.7
.750 ------------------------------------- 331.2 -- 336.9

Looks like I have managed to find “something” in the higher lifts that responded to the additional short-turn work that people on here suggested.

Here are the "E" results from above vs. the average of all 8 #s from my Hughes CNC Victors. My work still comes up short in places, but I've found some decent results for the effort.

Lift ---- C ------ H
.050 --- 32.4 --- 33.3
.100 --- 67.1 --- 71.1
.200 -- 143.6 -- 153.6
.300 -- 209.4 -- 221.6
.400 -- 267.4 -- 273.1
.450 -- 287.1 -- 294.1
.500 -- 309.8 -- 310.2
.550 -- 322.3 -- 322.7
.600 -- 329.4 -- 336.3
.650 -- 335.0 -- 343.0
.700 -- 340.7 -- 346.1

I'm OK bagging this for a bit until I have time to come back in the future to see what I can find starting w/ another runner. Any car-related time I have in the immediate future will be spent working on The MoPig, since everything around here is starting to shut down as the colder weather moves in.

TTFN on this topic.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/24/13 08:57 PM

Quote:

“I went back into the port, opened up the runner from 2.25 x 1.98 to 2.35 x 1.25;



Is that a typo or did you NARROW the port window ?
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/24/13 09:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

“I went back into the port, opened up the runner from 2.25 x 1.98 to 2.35 x 1.25;



Is that a typo or did you NARROW the port window ?


Typo; correction made in previous post (but not the original from which I copied that).
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/25/13 12:22 AM

Not wanting to Hijack Brad post about these heads, but how can I tell tell on the Eddy Victor M.H which casting I have?
Posted By: BradH

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/25/13 07:43 PM

Quote:

Not wanting to Hijack Brad post about these heads, but how can I tell tell on the Eddy Victor M.H which casting I have?


FWIW, here are the links I sent Cab via IM, if anyone else has the same question:

75 cc: - http://www.hughesengines.com/Tools/Popups/fullImage.php?file=/HPCDataDir/Images/hug4656.jpg

72 cc: - https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/7119691-CCpics005.JPG
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 10/26/13 04:49 AM

I've been thinking about porting the std. port Victor's I have here from the magazine article...I would like to do a cnc deal, but honestly I think the MW head would be the best to do a cnc program for.
If I ever get around to porting these I'll post some pics and info.

I'd really like to sell them too. I have TD rockers for them as well.
Sorry for pimp'n my shtuff...
Posted By: Prochargedmopar

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/12/17 01:43 AM

After reading this post it seems you can buy these heads for
$520 a set bare and ootb almost be equal to the ported sb heads that will cost ya triple that.

Hmmmmmm
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/12/17 03:33 PM

I'm going to make a " generic" post to all this, as well as kind of piggy back to Dwaynes other ProComp post. I dont have time to do much more.sorry.

I have an actual dead nuts comparison, on a car of a ProComp " Victor", vs a Eddy Victor ( hughes CNC) head, on a car, with no other changes. The car is a 68 GTX, 3570# bracket car. Last Fall, the car would run ( 511CI) 9.50-9.60s with the STD port Pro Comps, .650 cam. Same car, year before, same combo, with CNC Victors, same ET's, but with 1-2MPH more, maybe a bit more in killer cold weather. The guy never rejets the car, just runs it as it wants, and dials from there. He is a VERY good bracket racer,former National Summit Champion, so he knows how to get a car downt he track. 511CI, M1 intake, 1050-8896, nothing special at all, 1.5 TD rockers. ( the rocker fitment SUCKS on the ProComps).I know you would all like way more info, but thats what I can provide, just too busy to be pulling all sorts of data out, and have to rely on whats stuck in my little brain for now.

What I can say about the ProComps, is the guides are the biggest issue in my opinion,( seats are fair) and they will wear out VERY quickly ( less than 50 runs even), as they are junk. Some sort of crappy phosphorous bronze. I have done RHS heads fairly recently, same issue, change to maganese bronze, problem solved. The heads work ok for what they are, certainly not anything I would " suggest", but as noted many times over, the cost to get them " right" is just too much. Changing out 16 valve guides, profiling, porting clean up, milling decks, new valve job, the average guy cant pay that bill for a cheap set of heads. Those that can do it themselves, it kind of turns into a mad scientist project, because " they can".Just sharing a real world story.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/12/17 04:06 PM

Those sound like the mw victors i bought from you last yr. What was the compression ratio of that 511?
Posted By: krautrock

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/12/17 05:09 PM

Originally Posted By CompWedgeEngines

What I can say about the ProComps, is the guides are the biggest issue in my opinion,( seats are fair) and they will wear out VERY quickly ( less than 50 runs even), as they are junk. Some sort of crappy phosphorous bronze.


this brings up a question for me, the castings a few different folks are using that are the "sidewinder" heads, are they replacing the guides or do they have better guides to begin with?
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/12/17 05:10 PM

Wow....... Bringing back an oldie

The cheapest price I currently see for these heads is just over $800/pr, bare.

Depending on what you did for guide replacement and what brand of valves you bought.......

The heads, replacing the guides, valves, valve job.......you'd be within $100-200 of just buying the real Victors......... But then the Victors really could stand to have a couple hundred $$$ put into them after purchase, so the real difference in cost is really about $400, for both heads "prepped" with decent parts, but no porting.

For someone looking for what I like to refer to as "low effort" porting(stage 1 type), you'd likely end up with slightly better numbers from the same amount of effort by using the Pro Comps, since the chambers are farther away from the valves and the bowls are a little bigger "as cast".

With all the current offerings for bb mopar heads available right now...... I think either real or copycat Victors are a bit of a tough sell for the "budget oriented" build.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/12/17 05:52 PM

I think it is weird that ProComp copied the Victor heads. Guess the Chinese aren't too smart about which design they choose to ripoff. Kind of like a cover band playing the Monkies rather than the Beatles.

If they wanted to ripoff a good head design they should've copied the Chapman Stage VI head. That was probably the best design for this type of head.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/12/17 06:29 PM

I don't go to the track that much anymore, but I've never seen a set of these on a motor there.

It would be interesting to know just how many sets have actually been sold.

I was on the T&D site the other day and noticed they offer rockers for them, and it's a different part number than for the Victors.

IMO, in a mildly reworked std port configuration the offset rocker buys you almost nothing.
It these heads could use std rockers, I think they'd sell more of them.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/12/17 09:04 PM

I agree. I'm up over 900 hp on my 514 with the non-offset rocker arm EZ heads. For me that is a really tough combo to beat. A little extra material everywhere on those heads to make them more durable is about all I could ask for. I've had to get my EZ heads welded up a couple of times.

I had a local guy who had his heart set on a set of Victor heads. But he was just building a fairly mild motor so I told him the RPM head was all he needed. Somehow he had heard about the Victor head and just assumed it was a better head since it was more expensive. Guess that is marketing 101.
Posted By: Prochargedmopar

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/13/17 02:26 PM

,The promaxx/sidewinder heads have better guides.
I thought I saw that speedmaster had recently stepped up and started installing better guides too. Not sure though.

How can I check hardness in the one Ive got?
Posted By: Prochargedmopar

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/13/17 03:07 PM

Mad scientist project?

Couldnt a person get a set of these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/222383269919

Heat the head and press them in.
Then get a hone to fit each valve to chosen guide.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352079560164

There is also a 120 grit version

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352079560117

Then lap the valves.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/13/17 04:22 PM

Lap the valves after guide replacement?

Good luck with that.

Quote:
Heat the head and press them in.
Then get a hone to fit each valve to chosen guide.


Let me know how those guides work out for you in just about any of the Chinese heads.

(Ill give you a clue....... You won't need to heat the head to put them in)

I don't know why I have a couple thousand dollars invested in equipment for properly sizing valve guides....... When all I needed was a simple flex hone for $14.99.

Oh wait....... I do have some of those flex hones.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/13/17 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By prochargedmopar
Mad scientist project?

Couldnt a person get a set of these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/222383269919

Heat the head and press them in.
Then get a hone to fit each valve to chosen guide.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352079560164

There is also a 120 grit version

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352079560117

Then lap the valves.




It doesnt really work like that....lol..and the Pro Comps use an odd valve guide OD, not the same as the ones you posted.A flex hone is a finishing hone, not a sizing hone. It follows the exisiting bore and parent material so to speak. The guides distort slightly when installed, typically needing a quick reamer, or at least a rigid hone first to straighten them and size them properly.You will get pretty tired using a flex hone to size a valve guide, and then, you will have a really really weird concave/convex and unusual guide ID.....most likely oversized and all wallowed out.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/13/17 06:44 PM

I've measure the insides of cheaper valve guides with a ball mike and seen a lot of them feel like a coke bottle, not straight or consistent when done down tsk puke
Posted By: Prochargedmopar

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/17/17 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By CompWedgeEngines
Originally Posted By prochargedmopar
Mad scientist project?

Couldnt a person get a set of these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/222383269919

Heat the head and press them in.
Then get a hone to fit each valve to chosen guide.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352079560164

There is also a 120 grit version

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352079560117

I see the o.d. of these is about .558" or 14.18mm
Checking all 8 with a small bore gauge they "feel" exactly the same from top to bottom when I pull it through the hole.
Measure out to be .3420 or 8.69mm

I figured I could get the proper guides. (not sure where yet)
Press these out and some new ones in. (air hammer and guide installer/removal tool)
Use a $30 HSS reamer from ebay that is .001 under size or dead nuts depending on the valve stem diameter that I get.
Then use the bottle brush hone to bring them within 1/2 thou (.0005) so the valves fit perfectly.

Guess not.

No matter which way I slice it it seems I must shell out $1200 to $2000 for a set of heads BB or otherwise.

I'm determined to build a BB on a budget after this SB is done.
Then lap the valves.




It doesnt really work like that....lol..and the Pro Comps use an odd valve guide OD, not the same as the ones you posted.A flex hone is a finishing hone, not a sizing hone. It follows the exisiting bore and parent material so to speak. The guides distort slightly when installed, typically needing a quick reamer, or at least a rigid hone first to straighten them and size them properly.You will get pretty tired using a flex hone to size a valve guide, and then, you will have a really really weird concave/convex and unusual guide ID.....most likely oversized and all wallowed out.


I see the o.d. of these is about .558" or 14.18mm
Checking all 8 with a small bore gauge they "feel" exactly the same from top to bottom when I pull it through the hole.
Measure out to be .3420 or 8.69mm

I figured I could get the proper guides. (not sure where yet)
Press these out and some new ones in. (air hammer and guide installer/removal tool)
Use a $30 HSS reamer from ebay that is .001 under size or dead nuts depending on the valve stem diameter that I get.
Then use the bottle brush hone to bring them within 1/2 thou (.0005) so the valves fit perfectly.

Guess not.

No matter which way I slice it it seems I must shell out $1200 to $2000 for a set of heads BB or otherwise.

I'm determined to build a BB on a budget after this SB is done.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/17/17 06:53 PM

Don't let us tell you what will or won't work....... You've got a plan...... Go for it!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/17/17 09:32 PM

FWIW I worked at a shop that sold lots of Pro Comp heads mostly Chevy and Fords but---The guides are yellow and look like bronze but are the worst nightmare of a material I have ever seen--folks would send heads back that were run for one week and the guides were just Stupid loose worn out to just crazy sloppy--this happened again and again--Like Compwedge points out they are a very odd diameter --so very hard to find some to replace with --and by then you are out of the "good deal" part--right?? They are junk compared to the Sidewinders etc--the material of the aluminum is "frosty" and brittle you have to just face the facts they are so poor they are almost not Real heads--they look like heads but......even the helicoils they use in the BBC heads are a stupid size and you can't replace them with SAE USA helicoils to fix now..I use my fair share of China parts--many are great but anything with Procomp ( guess that is now Speedmaster to throw you off the scent) is total junk not worth the UPS as far as what I have had in my hands and what I have observed
and yes...I was wrong about the Callies forgings last week --oh well
Posted By: EchoSixMike

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/17/17 10:09 PM

You might try to use a K-liner with these crap guides and then do a decent valve job from there. S/F...Ken M
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/17/17 10:28 PM

Originally Posted By crabman173
FWIW I worked at a shop that sold lots of Pro Comp heads mostly Chevy and Fords but---The guides are yellow and look like bronze but are the worst nightmare of a material I have ever seen--folks would send heads back that were run for one week and the guides were just Stupid loose worn out to just crazy sloppy--this happened again and again--Like Compwedge points out they are a very odd diameter --so very hard to find some to replace with --and by then you are out of the "good deal" part--right?? They are junk compared to the Sidewinders etc--the material of the aluminum is "frosty" and brittle you have to just face the facts they are so poor they are almost not Real heads--they look like heads but......even the helicoils they use in the BBC heads are a stupid size and you can't replace them with SAE USA helicoils to fix now..I use my fair share of China parts--many are great but anything with Procomp ( guess that is now Speedmaster to throw you off the scent) is total junk not worth the UPS as far as what I have had in my hands and what I have observed
and yes...I was wrong about the Callies forgings last week --oh well


Love this..............Some want cheap? Well, you got cheap............ work
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/17/17 11:03 PM

In reality....... The china stuff does keep getting better.
I'm sure if someone in charge of the pro comp head deal decided they needed better guides installed when the heads were built...... It would get done, and the heads would probably only go up $10-20.

Their SBC Dart 200 copy is really pretty popular, and from what I understand..... Don't have many problems.
That head is sold under a lot if different labels.
Posted By: Porter67

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/18/17 02:13 PM

Can someone post pics of the guide issues of the small block pro comp head that they have seen first hand or worked on?

I just worked on a new set of sidewinder castings new in the box, but bought off ebay, the customer paid 1k I think, they were in the same thin china cardboard type box just like the pro comps and the guides are exactly the same as used in the pro comps small block mopar heads.

Side by side there is next to no difference in the small block sidewinder vs a pro comp as both being from the box.

In 12 sets of castings of the small block heads ive not found one casting flaw.

I dont know if people are going off pro comps past or generalization of the brand or china.

They are clearly a budget head, I ask these questions because when the mopar small block heads first came out, all the internet buzz was they didnt even have a single helicoil in them and that was never the case.

My street racer ran a 6.04 1/8 last fall at the track with a simple fogger with a near .700 lift solid, small diameter spring and pro comp castings.

I dont know how they would work with a big roller, springs, ect...Im sure they could pushed to failure, not to detract from things but look at the sprinkler mopar heads that used to leak from cnc machine or from the box or after 3-4 runs that couldnt be welded, many still use and support them.

Everything has there limit, the small block mopar procomps are not marketed as a serious race type/heavy hitter type head, because they are clearly not. People just want them to be, but on the cheap, and most know, cheap and race dont blend well together.
Posted By: Prochargedmopar

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/18/17 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By EV2Bird
Can someone post pics of the guide issues of the small block pro comp head that they have seen first hand or worked on?

I just worked on a new set of sidewinder castings new in the box, but bought off ebay, the customer paid 1k I think, they were in the same thin china cardboard type box just like the pro comps and the guides are exactly the same as used in the pro comps small block mopar heads.

Side by side there is next to no difference in the small block sidewinder vs a pro comp as both being from the box.

In 12 sets of castings of the small block heads ive not found one casting flaw.

I dont know if people are going off pro comps past or generalization of the brand or china.

They are clearly a budget head, I ask these questions because when the mopar small block heads first came out, all the internet buzz was they didnt even have a single helicoil in them and that was never the case.

My street racer ran a 6.04 1/8 last fall at the track with a simple fogger with a near .700 lift solid, small diameter spring and pro comp castings.

I dont know how they would work with a big roller, springs, ect...Im sure they could pushed to failure, not to detract from things but look at the sprinkler mopar heads that used to leak from cnc machine or from the box or after 3-4 runs that couldnt be welded, many still use and support them.

Everything has there limit, the small block mopar procomps are not marketed as a serious race type/heavy hitter type head, because they are clearly not. People just want them to be, but on the cheap, and most know, cheap and race dont blend well together.



I keep wondering how ATC sells 50 or 150 heads (shows items sold on ebay)
and still has 99.7% positive ratings and no complaints on heads in reviews.

Only thing I could do is try a set and see.
I don't think a .515 lift cam is gonna put much stress on guides or spring seat area.
Exhaust heat from turbo on the other hand just may stress it a little. :-)

Most likely I'll cut this one up and then buy BB sidewinders when the time arrives.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/18/17 05:13 PM

I don't feel cutting one up really tells you much about how well they'll hold up in use.

For that, there is no substitution for putting them into service, and inspecting them after they have been in use a while.

The guides will either hold up, or they won't.
Posted By: Prochargedmopar

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/18/17 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I don't feel cutting one up really tells you much about how well they'll hold up in use.

For that, there is no substitution for putting them into service, and inspecting them after they have been in use a while.

The guides will either hold up, or they won't.



Well I have no way to check metal hardness so if I cut it up it is only to view the structure of water jackets and port wall thickness while practicing my porting skills.

We'll see.
Posted By: M_D

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/20/17 02:23 AM

A sonic tester may be worth considering for checking the port wall thickness while saving the would be sacrificial head for potential resale. While one or two sectioned ports may give a general idea of the thickness on a particular model of a casting it's far from a guarantee all ports will be in the same ballpark. I also wouldn't have much confidence that the water jackets were an exact copy between brands, even if the exterior appeared to be.
Posted By: PorkyPig

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/21/17 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By prochargedmopar
Well I have no way to check metal hardness so if I cut it up it is only to view the structure of water jackets and port wall thickness while practicing my porting skills.

We'll see.


How much metal are you planning to take out? Unless you plan to redesign the head there I don't see why you want to bother cutting one into sections.
Posted By: PorkyPig

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/21/17 05:46 PM

Originally Posted By EchoSixMike
You might try to use a K-liner with these crap guides and then do a decent valve job from there. S/F...Ken M

Would that be a realistic way to salvage the guides without having to replace them outright?
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/21/17 06:53 PM

In a word...... Yes.

My only concern would be the potential for having problems reaming out the original guides by having the reamer stick, or not cut to the proper size.

The reamers are well over $100, so if it screws one up...... It would have been cheaper to just replace the guides.
Posted By: Prochargedmopar

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/22/17 05:45 AM

Thats a pretty penney.

Attached picture IMG_0995.PNG
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/22/17 05:59 AM

And that doesn't include the needed seat bushings($280) that are used with the boring tool.

And I can also tell you from experience, that the broaching tools don't do a very good job of sizing the liners when they're installed into bronze guides because the original guide material doesn't provide a rigid enough backing.

So, you usually end up needing to use a rigid hone to get them sized properly.........that's another tool that's about $500(just checked......over $700 now).

Then the seats need to be re-cut....... and that gets done on a $23,000 tool.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/22/17 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By prochargedmopar
Thats a pretty penney.



and, you need another separate one for 3/8" valves, and 5/16 valves,and you should really have a stem height gauge, another $200, and then a concentricity gauge, another $200, and maybe a split ball gauge for sizing the liners, or a valve stem comparator, about $500 on the low end to $1200 for the Sunnen and then, you need a $1,000 cutter kit, if your using the 3D type tooling, then you need the replacement cutters, that went from about $30 at Sunnen, to $90 each , and then if you want a diamond hone, thats another almost $1200 for the kit., and then you need 5/16, 11/32 and 3/8" liners, another couple hundred...and if you like touching up the machine cut seats with a stone, thats a $2500 seat grinding kit...and the list and costs, go on, and on and on....and when shops charge $200-$250 for a valve job, and people think that is " high"......just saying...lol
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Procomp BB head flow test - 06/22/17 05:06 PM

Not to mention there is usually a little learning curve that happens before you really get consistent, high quality results.
Like with many things....... It takes practice.

In the end........ If one is determined to use heads with a history of guide problems due to inferior parts installed at the factory........ It's generally better in the long run to just pay someone who has already made the investment in the tooling to swap the guides out for you, and recut the seats.
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