.. I had to pull it, $50. Lol. Now lets see how much horsepower that stock block can handle.

Ok seriously though, after working 20 years with big blocks, this will be my first serious N/A small block build.

please excuse the noob questions..

This is a run of the mill 74 360, no windage tray, etc. Is there enough meat on the block for a 4-bolt main conversion (if even available)? Or would it make that area weaker on a stock block?
Is a stock mains and stud kit plenty for say 6500-6700 rpm (will be a 4" stroke crank)?

I'm sure I'll have more questions later on, thanks.



And got this for 10 bucks, cause nothing short of a dominator will do but that's way down the road.

I wouldn't do a four bolt main, weakens block. I ran stock 340 blocks harder then that with arp studs. I would also do a short fill to give it a little more stability.

There are guys who put 4 bolt caps on Pcar blocks but it is a waste of time and WILL make the block weaker.

BTW with that stroke and those mains, I would have no less that .0036-.0038 main clearance. The block will flex and eat up the clearance.

Not sure how fast you are lookin to go but I beat the snot out of a stock stroke iron headed truck 360 w/a clean up and GOOD valve job from Pettis, a solid Isky flat tappet cam and it went 11.80`s at L.A.C.R`s altitude track and was my daily driver............not stellar but fun..........

Not only the mains, mine was flexing enough the cam bearings had grooves in them.

sheesh! we went from R blocks and Ritter blocks to this??? at least we know you are sane now!! We had a nice 340 block build that went a best of 9.8's. Only had a roll bar so my dad was shifting at like 5800 with a 4.3 gear. Bumped it up to 6800 it really got with it... I'm betting more gear and some tuning we would have been able to get some 9.6's out of it.... unfortunately it met a leaky W5 untimely death. If those heads would have been worth a krap I'm betting we'd still be wheeling that mill.

4" stroke, 2 bolt main, 13.5 to 1 compression, Indy intake with 4500 adapter.




life was so much simpler then.....

Looks it a fun build. Im in the process of building one myself for my sister... Eagle rods K1 crank SRP Pistons 4in stroke. Solid flat tappet and Edelbrock heads. I ran a 408 built on a 1999 block with 360-1 . It was a 2 bolt Main...man put a ton of passes on thing.good luck

@ Thumperdart - looking for high 9's @ 3100#. Going tomorrow to buy a used 1050 Dominator, will be sending it to you when I'm ready

@ 1967dartgt & madscientest - roger that, no 4-bolt mains. ARP mains studs on stock or aftermarket caps?

@ J-Body R's are out there, but suddenly the prices went Sky High, guess cause now when they are no longer being produced. Talked with a few people about the Ritter block,
machine costs alone would be quadruple to a very well machined/prepped stock block. So had to go with plan 'c'.. the 50 dollar engine lol.

Indy 360-1's are still the plan.

Now the short fill question. Necessary for a street driven engine that'll only see the track twice a year @ the ET i'm gunning for?
I'm not fond of filled blocks, however if it makes it more stable, I guess I'll have to be open to the idea.

@ whitedart good to know the 2-bolt mains held up, thanks.

Studs and a short fill. Good to go.

Looks like it has 587 heads. You have block and heads to run high 9s at 3100lbs. Even if they are 596 head castings they are fine. Sonic test block. Reject it and find another if major thrust will be less than .187 and .160 minor after boring. No fill needed, just makes the block a heavy pig. Restrictor tubes and oil pathway mods a good idea. A QMD port job and good guide and valve job and of course good valves and hardware. Program 2 bolt caps on middle 3. A steel 4" or 4.125" crank, a set of 6.25 rods and flat top pistons about .08 above deck, like a factory 340, just taller. A racer Brown STX22 solid flat tappet cam. Victor intake. Basically a copy of engine in my Demon. Passed 2100 runs this weekend at Beacon Dragway. Pistons never removed from the block and no valve job since original assembly . Went 6.22 at 108.50 Saturday night, and made a near perfect run first round today with no time run. .0000 on the tree and 6.2410 on 6.24 dial. Best engine I ever had! And in the 1980s everybody told me 360s were junk, don't waste your time and money on them. Runs best with 28* timing, crank trigger.

Oh, more smallblocks whoopin on big blocks...........I get it.......... I`ve got blocks, boosters and bowls lookin for a good home............

Can you tell me the specs on the STX22.. I
couldnt find them on line.... I'm looking to
change cams... thanks

its on this list.
http://www.4secondsflat.com/RB%20Cam%20Specs.htm

STX-21M 306 272@.050 .560 .597

Thanks..... what LSA are the STX22 ground on.. and I assume
its a solid FT cam

SSH -Super Street Hydraulic
STH Super Tork Hydraulic
SS Super Street Mechanical
ST- Super Tork Mechanical
STX and STR Roller cam grinds
EH Mild Hydraulic and economy grinds

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Racer_Brown_Cam_Specs.html

Thanks... I'll look for something else

STX-22 310 276 .590
It's on this page:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/RB%20Cam%20Specs.htm

Jim will pretty much grind his lobes on the LSA you want. He also has lobes not on that web site. You just have to call him.

I'm using a lobe not on Dons site.

@ qwkmopardan ~ thanks for the info. Didn't think those "smogger" heads had enough flow for a 9 second pass. Nice combo BTW.

@ thumperdart you bet buddy :thumb: & duly noted expect a package later on

Solid rollers question: I know they are spendy, but PITA to install & clearance or pretty straight forward? Thanks.

Also I've seen a lot of things in my life, but never, NEVER had I ever had all the exhaust manifold bolts come out without a hitch! Guess VC leaks were a good thing in my engines case. To quote Spock.. "Fascinating".

Pretty straight forward on SRL install.

I question the head deal myself. But, and this is a big butt, to go 9's in a 3100 pound car takes about 595 HP and in the correct combo any Pcar head can do that.

If you buy the right lifters there shouldn't be any grinding.

I've seen Dan's stuff run, there is no bs there, it runs hard.

I am going to lurk in the background on this thread because last Monday I bought a 360 in pieces from a guy on Craigslist. It was a 1990 roller cam engine, the block was standard bore and had been hot tanked but not bored, the heads had been rebuilt and came with a Delta Cam regrind (new). The crank seems to be standard, but I also have a fresh .010/.010 stock stroke crank. It also had a truck pan and factory windage tray. He gave me a new mini-starter with it and some other scrap iron, intake & exhaust manifolds. So I think it was worth the $150.00 I paid for it. It will go in the DD when it is done.

Well that's good to know the Pcar heads can get up and boogie! What kind of compression are you guys getting away with on an iron headed with 92oct E10 swill?

I've still got the roller lifters from our 340 based mill... dropped right in, no grinding or oil hole uncovering issues. Think I still have the camshaft too...

11.08:1 on pump gas.

I have comp 828-16s in a 76 model 360 block. They are close but no grinding was needed. I did need to tube the block though because they were uncovering the oil holes.

All righty I like the idea of 11:1 on pump gas with iron heads. Nothing like smoking aluminum headed BBC's with an iron headed engine.

I haven't got it in the car yet. It's on the run in stand now and runs, just dealing with a pissy carb right now.

Was going to dyno it but I'm just burning out in the deal and it may go straight to the car.

Roller cam? What kind of timing are you running with the iron heads?

With my 416 and W-2 iron heads I am running 10.6 compression
and 36* of timing.. its a decent size roller cam 260/270 on
a 105 LSA installed on 105.. that with .640/.640 lift... on
the street I run 87 octane.. I will run 93 at the track... I
get on it pretty good on the street with the 87 and no issues

SFT with 255 @ .050 with .620 lift gross 105 LSA installed on a 105 ICL and I'm locked out at 35* total.

Mr P.. given her on the street 10.6 & 87 oct? Are those W2 chambers that good?

Thanks for the info mad!

They arent bad.. but I also have a .039 quench which
is a help... I also touch up the chambers so there isnt
any hot spots.. that was real quick with a tootsie roll

OK.... maybe I'm "elevation handicapped", but I'd stick to the plan of the Indy top end. I'm thinking you'll find it easier to meet your ET goal.

I'm hearing ya. I was sure w/iron heads that there would have to be a quench dome.

You can mill the iron heads to have quench and a small chamber, combined with a piston like the wiseco +8 domed is a good combo but limits lift to .660 or so.

No doubt. Just fascinated that P-car Iron heads can go that fast.

This pic is from RJ and these are far from ideal imo as well your fast iron heads are not going to look near oem except from a visual standpoint.

Look back at the days of mastic, who needs a 3d printer to make things with that stuff.

Why they would do this with oem valve use in mind...hmmm... not ideal.

THose have got to be thin somewhere. They milled the chambers out. Scary !

You can get around that with a mopar crank, std. length rods and a off the shelf chevy piston, you can nail .035 above deck.

Haha just PM'd you about the rods.

Do tell...

Std length Mopar rod?
What Chevy piston??

Most importnat: What head gasket for an acceptable piston to head clearance???

Why would I want to be .035 above the deck?

I'm running mine .054 out of the deck. Would have been more but I'm on pump gas.

You sure didnt want any quench did ya
EDIT
I run a flat top piston with a 22cc dish with a .039
gasket to give me 10.6 compression(iron heads W-2s)

Building with stock based parts is a odd duck and very different from even eddie headed entry level stuff thats more or less setup for a quench type build.

If you figure just say a .040 head head gasket and your heads pad is .060 deep your fighting a .100 span so like posted above if hes .055 out hes at .045 quench....maybe?

Im my case with milled heads I only needed to be .035 above deck to use the oem pad to get a decent quench number.


Edit... these are not very pump gas friendly.

Mine is running great on the street with 87 octane with
a fair amount of beating on it..I will race on 93...
and it dynoed at 590 hp 525 tq

Everyone has a different agenda, your out thrashing and having fun with your car, my fun involves my car and another brand running iron heads where alomst anything goes and its limited miles. But im trying to win.

For myself I never understood the pump gas concept, mainly because if your so deep into a car and cant blend a bit of fuel, maybe I should be running a mopar... but thats me, others have there reason.

Mr P if you were 3 point higher on compression, how much do you think you would gain?

No clue.. I played the race fuel game.. then changed to
E-85.. this is a street rod for DW so no more race fuel
for me

It should be noted that I'm running a 3.313 stroke. So the math works out a bit different.

OK.... just found it interesting that it was into 2 pages and nobody brought that up. "IF" it were that easy, there would be lots of people doing it... he77 I was ecstatic with our iron head, flat tappet, KB piston 360 running 10.8's in Vegas with the way wrong gear and a converter that was dragging it down mercifully

Jason Pettis has seen 20+ hp per point..........

Really? Thats a lot. Personally seen a BBC that went from 10:1 to 13:1 with nothing else changed and it gain only 40hp. Now he has to run race gas. Maybe there's more gain going from 8:1 to 11:1 (same 3pt increase)?

Not sure on that..............I`ll ask him..........

You normally see a bigger increase in power from lower compression
vs the higher starting point when you jump up 3 points

Good to know. I'm gonna forgo on the Indy route and take a new direction: W2's. Operation coyote trap. Haha.

My W2 stuff is out there under the bench, waiting for my fat self to do guides and valve job and then the port work.

I'm getting old and slow.

Well hopefully I'll get a PM about some W2's

I have nothing personally to back this up but from what I have read it seems the gains diminish as the compression gets higher. Much more to be gained from going from 8:1 to 10:1 than there is from 12:1 to 14:1.

The only downside to W2s in my opinion is that they are Iron. My Dad and I built a W2 headed 416 for drag week. We had to lower the compression some to know we would be safe on pump gas and its HEAVY. It took three full turns on the torsion bars to support the R1 W2 headed 416 over my aluminum headed 360.

Rockers Rockers Rockers

Try a 440 in a 73 Dart.

I have no idea if this is a good deal or not, but here is a CL listing in Western Washington for Aluminum W2 heads

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/pts/5595446824.html

They are not mine, I don't need them, you can have them.

Good luck.

Corrected I first thought they were iron.

W2 heads??? hey now you're entering cast crank power territory!

Sayin can't run 9's with an W2 Iron heads & cast crank?

They will run in the 9s.. the thing about
W-2s you need to watch for.. they made them
in 2 different installed heights..1.88 which
is the standard lenght valve and then they made
a 2.00 installed height which use a long valve..
I have a set of each.. on my Rampage I am running
the long valve W-2s which I ported and they flow
310 at .650 with a 2.08 valve.. they could go a
little more but core shift might be a issue.. mine
have some core shift and I busted through 1 intake
runner when I was clearancing the push rods.. I had
to tube it... I run 9.56 with them.. thats with the
same cam I have in the 416 right now(.640 lift)...
they are a very good head but heavy.. alum heads will
knock off 40# for the pair... this 416 dynoed at 590hp
with a 950 carb
EDIT
Also when I ran that 9.56 it was with a 395ci

I've got an E58 standard bore block under the bench. If cam is small enough you can use Crane rockers also. Have some of those in the drawer. Then they start to get expensive.

That's some solid info. Thank you very much Mr P Body.

Mr. P... whats the length on the long valves your using?

Probably 5.28" Stem Length.

5.40".... 5.29" is the stock length for the standard
length head(W-2 and W-5)
EDIT
Dont bother trying to use long valves in a short
valve head... it doesnt work... the pedestals are
in a different location.. unless you mill the stands
off and relocate them and the different height

Do lots of research before buying W2 heads to avoid some issues and to make sure you get the set-up you want or need. I bought a set of Econo W2 heads and picked up some Crane and MP W2 rockers. I did some port work and with the stock 2.02 valves they were flowing slightly over 300 cfm. I ported the W2 intake and threw it in my Duster. After cam break-in I started it a few times in the shop and noticed a small puddle of water on the passenger side. Sure enough the heads cracked on the outside lower row of bolts by the W2 cast into the head. I ground the crack out and used Splash-zone epoxy to fix it and headed to the track. My Duster ran high 9 with that combo but about 3 months later the drivers-side head cracked in the same spot and even after a quick repair the crack continued to grow. After some reading I found out that some of these casting were known to have that issue so they are both leaning again my shop wall in the SCRAP zone. I'm just glad I didn't go to the work and expense of installing bigger valves.

Other than what I said before I did forget to say..
that the W-2s can be bought in a race or econo version
which is simple to spot.. the race ones dont have the pedestals
for the rocker shafts.. the econo ones have the pedestals..
both sets of mine are the econo versions.. one set is the
short valves the other is the long valve... I have never
had the short valve ones on a engine yet.. I ported them
and there they set.. I didnt get carried away with the
port work on them so they didnt need any tubes added..
I think I have valves for them but I dont know... I might
look to see what I can run for max lift on them just in
case I want to put them on something... they should still
flow right at 300 which is pretty simple on the W-2s

Do you want to sell those W2's. PM me if you do.

Same. Or any body else.. Mr P?

Have you guys tried that electric motor paint? I tried some of it.. for a base coat on the timing cover, pretty slick. Water pump was rattle canned.

LOL.

Original timing chain, no broken teeth. Valved move freely.. yet somehow both the Intake and exhaust valves clipped the piston (#8). Also the exhaust valve clipped
piston #2. Over rev much?

Maybe it was cammed at one time???

Dunno. I'll have to check the cam in it. The head gaskets were done (composite, black in colour). Intake rails & face had a bejesus amount
of silicon on em. Note; silicon blocking 1/2 the water ports aren't a good thing. That stock 2bbl intake weighs A LOT. Yikes lol.

Scored 3 more 360 blocks. 1973,74, & 76. Picking them up this weekend.
Life is grand..

Sweet! I traded 2 Slants for 3 360's a few weeks ago. They're everywhere!

Nice!
Anyways I was bored so I decided to open the 587 ports @ the pinch. Half hour of grinding later, gone(ish).
Gave it the old hit it with a brass drift to see if it'll bust through, didn't. Then again that was just
one port. What's it worth CFM wise outta curiosity?

[quote=slantzilla]Sweet! I traded 2 Slants for 3 360's a few weeks ago. They're everywhere! [/


A slant is worth more than a 360. As it should be.

I know I'm only one unique example but my 1990 block and stock 360 cast crank have amazed me with what abuse it's taken.

1/2 fill, girdle, low timing , 6500 rpm max... but I'm sure it makes in the 800hp range with the boost turned up around 18-19psi.

I wish they started out with a bigger bore and
would take more boring than they do.. thats why I
still run 340 blocks.. but they are getting hard to
find.. I only have 2 left that are stand by.. plus
I have the one in the Rampage and 1 on the stand that
was the back up for the race car

That 1990 block should have the extra reinforcement in the pan area like a magnum block, with sufficent meat left in the walls it should take a lot of crap

@ dizuster; thats some crazy horsepower for a 2-bolt main cast crank engine. Try that with a SBC: BOOM. New low earth orbit Satellite.

@ Mr P; your a 340 guy, I like the 360. (stock) 1550 gram bob weight

@ HotRodDave; they say the same about early 400's.. the strength added is negligible.

The simple reason that I like the 340s.. the
bigger bore helps unshroud the valve and the
small main journals and will turn more RPM

1.02" is maxed out without a tube. To get 1.02 you will have to spend another 1/2 hour+ on the common wall.

Another 1/2 hour & 1.02"(+/-).

I'm really digging porting these heads. More satisfying the porting BB's. What kind of CFM gain is there removing the pinch?

Everyone wants to attach the pinch but the big dividends are on the shortside turn.

Short side radius I'm not worried about. Blend + bowl work & pinch removal will shine.

You need to get rid of guide fat, lots of it. The intake pair without the long bolt will need a plug and an extra long bolt. Order an ARP W2 head bolt get and you get the 2 extra-long bolts. You will be cutting the pair of ports with the long bolt the same it just won't break through.
The ones I port flow close to 280 cfm. Heads on Demon flowed 273. My engine in the Demon runs on 110 octane race fuel, 13 to 1 CR. I have ran 60% 110 and 40% 93 a few times when I couldn't get any 110 out of town racing. My 300 engine, 11.8 to 1 CR 442 c.i. small block, I mix 60% 93 and 40% 110. On Dragweek I cut it to about 80/20 for the drives and added enough 110 when I got to the track to get it back to 60/40.

442c.i. sm block--587 production heads--4150lbs--11.35 at 117 1/4 mile--7.22 at 97 1/8th mile--1.56 60 ft.
There is more in it. I just got it back from body shop and will give it a tune up. Factory air cleaner a suspect problem

Roger that on the heads. I'll do just the one intake port, flow it, if I get 260+ I'll continue on, otherwise I'll get the iron W2's.

Race gas however that's a big negative. Gotta be 100% pump. Cid will be in the 408 range. I don't have the big bore block.

Love that 300 setup. People walk by it without a second thought about the engine. Exactly what I want.

On the W-2s.. you can get over 300.. on mine
the one set is 302.. the set on my 416 flow 310..
I did have to tube one intake port where I cut through
but they are on the car now... I have heard of some
W-2s going as high as 320.. but I dont know that for fact
but mine were flowed on 2 benches.. the one at Chrysler
and another local to me.. they were within 3 cfm .. but
if I were to port another set I wouldnt go that far.. the
issue is core shift

4.07 bore production 1974 block. 4.25 BPE crankshaft. Very little work to block to get it to swing full circle. A notch in the bottom of each cylinder and a little work on the pick-up tube. Pistons were supposed to be 4.06" but Wiseco made both sets I ordered at the same time 4.07", one set was for a .03 O.S. 340 block. Block was super thick so I went ahead and used the 4.07 pistons. Would of never went .06 except formula for 440 S.B. is 4.25 x 4.06

You could get 260 out of the Pcar head, and 260 out of the W2 and the W2 will KILL that Pcar head every single time.

There is more to heads than flow. Volume is just as important, and I don't care what you do, you won't get W2 volume from a Pcar head. If you have W2's or can get them, don't waste one more second on that Pcar crap.

Quick Dan, what size valve did you use to get 280cfm out of the pass car heads?

Are those heads the same as J heads?

2.055"

There all 'smogger' heads. What I noticed so far if that there is plenty
of meat to get rid of the pushrod pinch completely. Always thought that was a T/A only deal.


587 production heads

4" bore @ 28" stock port w/ 1.88" valve

Lift--------Intake cfm
0.150------91
0.200-----124
0.250-----157
0.300-----182
0.350-----199
0.400-----206
0.450-----212
0.500-----214
0.550-----211
0.600-----206

So right there you can get 400hp from bone stock heads

This is from Chrysler Power magazine:
2.02 intake, hog out ports (pinch removed) blended guides, bowl

Lift--------Intake cfm
0.150-----110
0.200-----149
0.250-----183
0.300-----210
0.350-----232
0.400-----250
0.450-----267
0.500-----281
0.550-----277
0.600-----270

potential 550-600hp heads


W2 stock port
.050------30
.100-----61
.200-----120
.300-----166
.400-----210
.500-----236
.600-----244
.700-----234

Stock 587 heads beat the stock W2 up to .350ish lift, after that game over.
Ported 587 heads smokes the stock W2. But it's alot of work.. that
could be applied to the W2 lol.

What a head flows and what you get out of them for power are to totally different things!

Roger that. Best flow with the smallest cross section. Unless it's supercharged, then turn em into sewer pipes.

So looking at these heads, it seems that the exhaust springs only have a damper spring in them, none on the intake. Is that normal? Thanks.

Did they have the rotators on them.. that makes
them heavy

Dunno. Whats it look like? That round thing under the retainer?

They are a bearing that allowed the valve to
turn easier.. usually on heavy duty truck engines
I dont have a pic of them.. but they were about a
1/4" to 5/16" thick... took the place of the retainer..
you would know if they were on there.. someone could
have puled them off.. I always trashed them

the valve on the left side of the pic has the rotator usually on the exhaust valve from my experience.

If I remember the numbers right, back in the late 90s Ritter-Webers Daytona went some 7.70s with the 360-W2s and a single four in comp. I was impressed with how fast and loud that small block car was! I bought a set of 15-33 Goodyears with two passes from them for $100 that day, nice guys

The spring on the left has a rotater. They were on exh valves on truck engines. If you were building a mild engine and wanted 340 springs you could not do it. The valves are made for a shorter spring. For what you are doing you will end up with .100 long sb chevy valves or maybe magnum valves. Don't try LS valves, I just did a set with LS valves, and what a PITA

If you have not yet, before you go buying this and that, get a plan on paper and stick to it.

You could end up thousands ahead in the end, or be like alot of us and just be sitting on alot of parts you might get 1/2 of what you paid.

Even thin pushrod walls will crack with alot of heat cycles, and with little trouble the K&S metals #8139 1/2x.014 tubes fit the pushrod tubes.