Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
#2634132
03/18/19 06:03 PM
03/18/19 06:03 PM
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I had never rebuilt a transmission before but I bought a book and there wasn’t that much stuff in there- it all reminded me of a harley shovelhead and evo clutch packs. I just got done breaking in a fresh motor after a timy bit of valvetrain carnage and after tuning the idle I tried putting it in gear. Well I’ve idled and revved in every gear, let it sit in N while I checked and added fluid, made sure the axles were free to spin in N (truck is on jackstands for break in), there just is no jolt into any gear and the jacked up rear tires haven’t even threatened to spin in either direction. Now I’m doing some reading online and I must have skipped the last chapter of that 727 book because I didn’t know to put it in N or gear so the pump can run to fill the converter and keep everything happy. “Why slam the gears at 2700 rpm” I thought. I never had a hotrod with an auto trans, I’ve just put used ones in and swapped converters before. Everything had a nice swab of grease on it but the converter was dry. Funny because I know better- I always threw a quart in there before installing one. I just didn’t feel like making a mess and figured it’d fill up after a minute of running. I have a deep pan and pickup and a tf2 kit installed on the trans, a cheap just above entry level 2500 stall B&M converter, and the cable shifter & lokar throttle pressure (kickdown) were properly installed. The pan had six or seven quarts in it and I put one more in after tuning my idle. It looks like I’m going to be pulling the trans or maybe the whole driveline. What should I expect to find in there? I couldn’t have smoked the clutches because apparently there was never any line pressure ![frown frown](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/frown.gif) The fluid on the dipstick still looks new. Maybe the converter, pump, and any seals that could be smoked from not getting oil? Any good parts sources? Or am I jumping the gun and these symptoms could be from a mistake assembling the valve body? Good thing I got a sense of humor! And it’s also good this is a toy I enjoy working on not my daily or business truck. I just wish I wasn’t learning so many lessons the hard way!
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634140
03/18/19 06:20 PM
03/18/19 06:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
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CMcAllister
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If it was all fresh and new, it's gonna take more than 6 or 7 quarts with a deep pan.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634157
03/18/19 07:18 PM
03/18/19 07:18 PM
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HemiRick
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How much fluid have you put in it? Still sounds to me like not enough.....
Take care, Rick 68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: HemiRick]
#2634165
03/18/19 07:37 PM
03/18/19 07:37 PM
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Around 7 quarts I think? but if the pump isn’t circulating the fluid it would still read full right? Because the torque converter, cooler, etc would all stil be empty?
I only know how to put a funnel into the dipstick tube I don’t know how to prime anything or make the pump create pressure if it isn’t...
Last edited by radar; 03/18/19 07:38 PM.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634198
03/18/19 08:43 PM
03/18/19 08:43 PM
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polyspheric
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Unlss the ATF level was below the pick-up the converter will fill by itself, but (of course) that will lower the level.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634202
03/18/19 08:52 PM
03/18/19 08:52 PM
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Ok so I’m going back through my Tom Hand book and looking at TF2 specs and it says the TF2 fills the converter in park.
Maybe I just need to go through the gears slowly a bunch and add more fluid?
What about the cooler line not getting pressure? Am I fubar’d?
Thanks fellas I really appreciate the experienced advice- Like I said I never built a 727 before!
I did make sure the converter was fully seated before I mated the trans to the flexplate & motor.
Last edited by radar; 03/18/19 08:55 PM.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634204
03/18/19 08:57 PM
03/18/19 08:57 PM
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A39Coronet
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.
Last edited by A39Coronet; 06/02/19 09:20 PM.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: A39Coronet]
#2634217
03/18/19 09:43 PM
03/18/19 09:43 PM
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Forward drum piston in backwards I my guess...all fluid bypasses piston seal and clutches won't apply, no fluid anywhere else. Ask me how I know, cost me the sale of my car this winter unfortunately after a fresh rebuild. Oof sorry to hear that! Do you mean the one under the lever forward of the accumulator? I didn’t take a ton of pix while rebuilding my 727 but here’s one where you can see the piston installed- does it look ok?
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634233
03/18/19 10:18 PM
03/18/19 10:18 PM
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CMcAllister
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If it's not moving oil through the cooler, either there's not enough oil in it or something is not together right in the front of the trans. I don't know what kind of dipstick you have, but have you checked the length of the thing? If it's long for the tube, it won't read right. If you only have 7 quarts in it, I would put another quart or two in it and see what happens, regardless what the stick says,
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: Twin Turbo Mower]
#2634252
03/18/19 11:37 PM
03/18/19 11:37 PM
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If it is a stock oil pump the tangs/tabs on the pump gear might have broken off when installing the converter. And was the converter seated into the pump?
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C 71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield) 71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas) 71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: 70AARcuda]
#2634260
03/19/19 12:12 AM
03/19/19 12:12 AM
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If it is a stock oil pump the tangs/tabs on the pump gear might have broken off when installing the converter. And was the converter seated into the pump? Yes I think so. I remember the night I married the trans to the motor it took forever to drop all the way in and I didn’t force anything when it bolted to the block and flexplate Thinking back it’s likely I took that pic before seeing my mistake and changing that kickdown situation so it didn’t stick up all crazy. I remember having to do that part twice
Last edited by radar; 03/19/19 01:17 AM.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634274
03/19/19 02:58 AM
03/19/19 02:58 AM
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A727Tflite
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The book is wrong and somehow I made a typo. My earlier post should say “ ,not park”.
You have to be in neutral to get any substantial flow out of the cooler line.
You will be there forever trying to fill the converter in park.
Run the engine with the trans in neutral while filling the trans. Sounds like you are low at this point.
Last edited by Transman; 03/19/19 03:09 AM.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: 540challenger]
#2634382
03/19/19 11:52 AM
03/19/19 11:52 AM
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When the deep pan was installed did u put a filter extension on it because if u didn't like said already u will need more fluid I did install an extension on the pickup in the deep pan if I remember right it was a triangular chunk of aluminum sandwiched by gaskets. It is supposed to be a +2 quart pan. I fired her up this am and added two more quarts of fluid which surprisingly didn’t just over fill up into the dipstick tube. Now it has 9 quarts of trick shift in it. I sat for 5 mins or so slowly shifting from reverse to 1 and back. Nothin. Tires didn’t move at all, no feeling of going into any gear, pan and cooler lines are cold
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634395
03/19/19 12:32 PM
03/19/19 12:32 PM
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440lebaron
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as stated front band servo piston is installed wrong, also looks like band adjustment is backed all the way out? gary
all parts are sold as is, all parts are considered used no warranties or returns paypal/check/money order, shipping is from zip 02891, buyer pays paypal fees 24% IRS 1099A plus 3% of part price, check/money order preferred site is not monitored 24/7 there might be a delay in response
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: 440lebaron]
#2634415
03/19/19 01:12 PM
03/19/19 01:12 PM
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CMcAllister
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If dumping more oil in it didn't result in any improvement, then you can assume it has to come back out. So many small (or large) details could be incorrect, at some point you'll have to have someone look at it. I wouldn't take it apart and then take it somewhere else in pieces.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2634441
03/19/19 02:09 PM
03/19/19 02:09 PM
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CMcAllister
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Here's my trick. Go into the pump with a pick type tool and align the pump ears to 12 and 6 o'clock. Spin the converter in your hands to get the notches to 12 and 6 also, and slide it straight in. Usually it takes a bit of gentle in and out without spinning the converter very far from that position to get it to drop. If it's contrary, you might have to start over a few times. Easiest way I've found.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634475
03/19/19 03:54 PM
03/19/19 03:54 PM
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CMcAllister
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Burnt = fluid discolored and smells like death. Parts broken or torn up = jewelry store in the pan. Neither of these = parts missing or installed wrong or something broken clean.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634495
03/19/19 05:02 PM
03/19/19 05:02 PM
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A727Tflite
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Read my PM about diagnosing your issue further.
You can’t burn the converter up doing what you have done so far. If broken drive lugs - you may have scored up the pump rotor pocket but you won’t know either until you get it apart.
Last edited by Transman; 03/19/19 05:06 PM.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2634532
03/19/19 07:06 PM
03/19/19 07:06 PM
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John_Kunkel
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The book is wrong and somehow I made a typo. My earlier post should say “ ,not park”.
You have to be in neutral to get any substantial flow out of the cooler line.
You will be there forever trying to fill the converter in park. The manual valve supplied in the TF-2 kit allows converter fill in Park. Symptoms point to failed pump drive lugs.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634783
03/20/19 11:54 AM
03/20/19 11:54 AM
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see tech archive on moparts for air checking servos and drums with valve body down gary
all parts are sold as is, all parts are considered used no warranties or returns paypal/check/money order, shipping is from zip 02891, buyer pays paypal fees 24% IRS 1099A plus 3% of part price, check/money order preferred site is not monitored 24/7 there might be a delay in response
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634784
03/20/19 11:57 AM
03/20/19 11:57 AM
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A727Tflite
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Go through the valve body, if all good - a better test for the pump is reinstall the valve body and pan then add all the fluid in to the trans.
Note how high the fluid is on the dipstick before starting the engine.
Start the engine and run it for a few minutes and check again. If the fluid level is lower then the pump is working. When you pull the valve body the converter will lose some of it’s fluid. Upon startup you will fill the converter which will lower the fluid - if the pump is working.
Once you get the valve body apart take a pic and post it of the end of the regulator valve - the end that sticks out once installed in the valve body.
Last edited by Transman; 03/20/19 12:04 PM.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634804
03/20/19 12:23 PM
03/20/19 12:23 PM
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HemiRick
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Only 7 qts thats not near enough to fill am trans and converter takes more like 12......I's add more fluids before pulling anything apart
Take care, Rick 68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2634916
03/20/19 05:54 PM
03/20/19 05:54 PM
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Hey Radar we have all had those moments and honestly probably will till the day we die. At least you aren't paying someone to do those mistakes for you because that happens too. Keep on moving forward with your head up and enjoy the Summer. Ohhh by the way we had a post on Moparts about some of OUR screw-ups and trust me we have ALL done some real dozies. LOL. Some guys just won't admit to it.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2634941
03/20/19 07:09 PM
03/20/19 07:09 PM
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aspenrt360
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Like others have said at least you had the stones to try it yourself! good job don't worry about messing that up it will make you pay more attention next time you are into something technical.
2013 Chrysler 300 touring 1974 Dodge Charger SE. 360-727-8.75-3.23 sure grip 1972 Dodge Dart Swinger 1995 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2635028
03/20/19 11:48 PM
03/20/19 11:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
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jwb123
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She runs through the gears turning tires like she should! Quick rev on the brake went to 2500 which seems right for a big motor in front of the 2400 holeshot converter. Now to get back to tuning and figuring out what she likes to make fire for a cold start. Gonna go around the block a few times then change the oil. Can’t wait to put her back on the ground to move under her own power for the first time since last summer!
Thanks everybody for your time and thoughts I greatly appreciate being part of this community
Happy but a little red in the face, Radar I been building transmissions for 40 years now, and I still get a funny tingle when I put it in gear the first time. 99% of the time they work, but every once in a while something wierd happens. If you are going to keep fixing transmissions buy yourself a gauge set. Harbor freight has some cheap. A gauge reading and understanding what pressure is supposed to be, will help you fix that 1% much quicker. And that lesson you just learned will be with you forever, those that never make a mistake are those that never do anything.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: jwb123]
#2635166
03/21/19 11:34 AM
03/21/19 11:34 AM
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440lebaron
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that's much better then going to bolt the torque converter up and there is no flexplate on the engine, don't ask :):) gary
all parts are sold as is, all parts are considered used no warranties or returns paypal/check/money order, shipping is from zip 02891, buyer pays paypal fees 24% IRS 1099A plus 3% of part price, check/money order preferred site is not monitored 24/7 there might be a delay in response
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: moparx]
#2635575
03/22/19 01:00 PM
03/22/19 01:00 PM
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Thanks fellas. Since the trans fix cost $17 for a clean new drain pan so I could reuse the minty atf I celebrated by ordering some dynamat xtreme to dampen some of the resonance in the cab. It wouldn’t catch R yesterday- found the trans finally finished burping. Adding some atf seems to have got it shifting nicely again.
I hate adding trans fluid- once the dipstick tube is used as a filler neck the stick just always comes back wet. Tomorrow I will check it again. I’m at 10.5 quarts which seems right.
Last edited by radar; 03/22/19 01:01 PM.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2635972
03/23/19 03:46 PM
03/23/19 03:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,021 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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How long did you run it before pulling the VB? I'm wondering how much damage was done to the pump running it "dry".
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2636231
03/24/19 12:28 AM
03/24/19 12:28 AM
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Hi John. It ran for 25-30 mins before I dropped the pan and removed the valve body. I always assemble oil pumps with grease so they have good suction and are not dry on start up. The blue sticky trans building grease was applied liberally and when I pulled the VB the trans lost a good pint or more of clean unburnt atf from the holes above the valve body so it did get some lube slung around, just never built any pressure.
It still isn’t a proven rebuild but I’m optimistic. It shifts well in D and had trouble hitting R a couple times before I topped it off. Still gotta try out the tf2 kit & ratchet slap shifter. Should bark out some nice upshifts if I shift manually and keep it above stall speed. It’s been raining here and my work week centers around fri/sat. So I haven’t been able to get out for testing and shakedowns. I’m itching and nervous to beat on it a little around the neighborhood to test it out and seat the rings before the post break in oil change.
Last edited by radar; 03/24/19 01:47 AM.
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Re: Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in
[Re: radar]
#2637200
03/25/19 11:42 PM
03/25/19 11:42 PM
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BANDIT
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I just had my tranny rebuilt, had a deep pan on it, when I pulled pan to diagnose converter locking up at stop signs. Guess what, filter spacer was on 180 degrees off. It was done by a shop that should have known better. Don’t beat yourself up. Jim
64 Dodge Coronet 440. In progress 1998. Dodge Avenger. 8.35@165. 4400 DA 250” Neil and Parks Slip Joint. 7.36@183. 4600 DA 242" Mullis Dragster. 6.90@ 200mph
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