Think I fried a fresh 727 on break in

I had never rebuilt a transmission before but I bought a book and there wasn’t that much stuff in there- it all reminded me of a harley shovelhead and evo clutch packs. I just got done breaking in a fresh motor after a timy bit of valvetrain carnage and after tuning the idle I tried putting it in gear. Well I’ve idled and revved in every gear, let it sit in N while I checked and added fluid, made sure the axles were free to spin in N (truck is on jackstands for break in), there just is no jolt into any gear and the jacked up rear tires haven’t even threatened to spin in either direction.

Now I’m doing some reading online and I must have skipped the last chapter of that 727 book because I didn’t know to put it in N or gear so the pump can run to fill the converter and keep everything happy. “Why slam the gears at 2700 rpm” I thought. I never had a hotrod with an auto trans, I’ve just put used ones in and swapped converters before.

Everything had a nice swab of grease on it but the converter was dry. Funny because I know better- I always threw a quart in there before installing one. I just didn’t feel like making a mess and figured it’d fill up after a minute of running.

I have a deep pan and pickup and a tf2 kit installed on the trans, a cheap just above entry level 2500 stall B&M converter, and the cable shifter & lokar throttle pressure (kickdown) were properly installed. The pan had six or seven quarts in it and I put one more in after tuning my idle.

It looks like I’m going to be pulling the trans or maybe the whole driveline. What should I expect to find in there? I couldn’t have smoked the clutches because apparently there was never any line pressure The fluid on the dipstick still looks new. Maybe the converter, pump, and any seals that could be smoked from not getting oil? Any good parts sources?

Or am I jumping the gun and these symptoms could be from a mistake assembling the valve body?

Good thing I got a sense of humor! And it’s also good this is a toy I enjoy working on not my daily or business truck. I just wish I wasn’t learning so many lessons the hard way!

If you have a production dipstick and tube you should run it and add fluid until it shows maybe a pint low. Add the fluid in neutral, or park.

With a dry converter, cooler and trans you will need more fluid.


If it still doesn’t turn the wheels on the stands - unless you have gauges, the quick way to see if you have fluid flow is to remive the rear cooler line (engine off) and have someone aim that’s line in to a clean pail or drain pan. Start the engine and see if you have flow - if not you have internal issues.

If it was all fresh and new, it's gonna take more than 6 or 7 quarts with a deep pan.

Wow a response from “Transman” almost right away- you must be the guy to ask! Thanks for the response.

It’s got a lokar dipstick or maybe a knockoff? It’s a braided deal with a steel rope dipstick. It’s reading full in N idling and both trans cooler lines are dead cold. I’ll go pull the feed at the rad support and see if fluid even comes out.

Are you saying I might have bad info and 2500+ rpm for 25 mins in Park with a dry converter wouldn’t necessarily fry stuff? Total auto trans noob here

Ok so I pulled a cooler line (the one from the rear of the trans) started the motor in N, and got no atf- just a couple drips. It should be a firehose of atf right?

Ugh. What are my options? Did I toast it doing motor break-in shifted to Park? Or more likely an assembly issue with the valve body? Should I expect to pull it and replace the converter and pump? Who sells that stuff that’s a go to guy here or board sponsor?

I’d love to just add atf and get hot rodding but Im guessing its not that kind of party at this point. Honestly if I could get a good trans and converter for less than $1000-1500 I’d be happy to just cut my losses and throw that in there but that’s frustration talking. I really want to find out what I did wrong and fix it, even though swapping transmissions under the car sucks and pulling the whole front clip to get the motor/trans together is a chore too.

It would be a good excuse to really finish my firewall and tunnel which was fabricated with the driveline in place.

How much fluid have you put in it? Still sounds to me like not enough.....

Around 7 quarts I think? but if the pump isn’t circulating the fluid it would still read full right? Because the torque converter, cooler, etc would all stil be empty?

I only know how to put a funnel into the dipstick tube I don’t know how to prime anything or make the pump create pressure if it isn’t...

Unlss the ATF level was below the pick-up the converter will fill by itself, but (of course) that will lower the level.

Ok so I’m going back through my Tom Hand book and looking at TF2 specs and it says the TF2 fills the converter in park.

Maybe I just need to go through the gears slowly a bunch and add more fluid?

What about the cooler line not getting pressure? Am I fubar’d?

Thanks fellas I really appreciate the experienced advice- Like I said I never built a 727 before!

I did make sure the converter was fully seated before I mated the trans to the flexplate & motor.

.

Oof sorry to hear that! Do you mean the one under the lever forward of the accumulator? I didn’t take a ton of pix while rebuilding my 727 but here’s one where you can see the piston installed- does it look ok?

At this point any problem that could be fixed without trans removal/dissassembly would be a godsend but it just is what it is!

If it's not moving oil through the cooler, either there's not enough oil in it or something is not together right in the front of the trans. I don't know what kind of dipstick you have, but have you checked the length of the thing? If it's long for the tube, it won't read right. If you only have 7 quarts in it, I would put another quart or two in it and see what happens, regardless what the stick says,

If it is a stock oil pump the tangs/tabs on the pump gear might have broken off when installing the converter.

And was the converter seated into the pump?

why is the apply piston so high on the kickdown lever? can't see it being up that high unless the spring was left out....

Yes I think so. I remember the night I married the trans to the motor it took forever to drop all the way in and I didn’t force anything when it bolted to the block and flexplate

Thinking back it’s likely I took that pic before seeing my mistake and changing that kickdown situation so it didn’t stick up all crazy. I remember having to do that part twice

The book is wrong and somehow I made a typo. My earlier post should say “ ,not park”.

You have to be in neutral to get any substantial flow out of the cooler line.

You will be there forever trying to fill the converter in park.

Run the engine with the trans in neutral while filling the trans. Sounds like you are low at this point.

When the deep pan was installed did u put a filter extension on it because if u didn't like said already u will need more fluid

Are the 4 converter bolts in that couple it to the trans

I did install an extension on the pickup in the deep pan if I remember right it was a triangular chunk of aluminum sandwiched by gaskets. It is supposed to be a +2 quart pan.

I fired her up this am and added two more quarts of fluid which surprisingly didn’t just over fill up into the dipstick tube. Now it has 9 quarts of trick shift in it. I sat for 5 mins or so slowly shifting from reverse to 1 and back. Nothin. Tires didn’t move at all, no feeling of going into any gear, pan and cooler lines are cold

Yes. I remember being amazed at how small the bolts were compared to the bolts holding the flex plate to the crankshaft.

as stated front band servo piston is installed wrong, also looks like band adjustment is backed all the way out?
gary

If dumping more oil in it didn't result in any improvement, then you can assume it has to come back out. So many small (or large) details could be incorrect, at some point you'll have to have someone look at it. I wouldn't take it apart and then take it somewhere else in pieces.

Me thinks you knock the two drive lugs off the front pump while installing the converter, I did that the first time I installed a converter in my 1962 Plymouth Fury with the 727 I had not understood how hard it is to get the dang converter to install correctly on all the 727 Mine dropped down once, it needs to drop down three times usually
I stand the tranny up so I can drop the converter in and twist and rotate it so it drops down all the way, sometimes it goes good and other times it does not
I do start off by aligning the drive lugs in the pump so they are both at zero and 180 degrees on the front shafts and align the slot in the converter the same way
I found out that by using a straight flat edge like a carpenter square on the front of the tranny bell housing flange that with the converter lugs need to be around .750, 3/4 inch from the converter side of the flat edge
if it won't pump fluid in neutral it is probably the front pump drive teeth broken
Let us know what you find

Here's my trick. Go into the pump with a pick type tool and align the pump ears to 12 and 6 o'clock. Spin the converter in your hands to get the notches to 12 and 6 also, and slide it straight in. Usually it takes a bit of gentle in and out without spinning the converter very far from that position to get it to drop. If it's contrary, you might have to start over a few times. Easiest way I've found.

Ok so it could be a few obvious things but she’s coming back out. I think that pic is from when I had the kickdown piston installed upside down and took pics to compare to my books. I didn’t take a lot of pics doing the trans since I was usually covered in sticky blue grease. I’ll report back once I have the trans dropped...

I’m still curious to know what to look for in the converter- if the snout is ok where it turns the pump how do I know if I smoked the guts of it? It is a holeshot which was like $400- a cheap converter but still ouch

Burnt = fluid discolored and smells like death. Parts broken or torn up = jewelry store in the pan. Neither of these = parts missing or installed wrong or something broken clean.

Ok so I have a chance of saving the converter if the pump drive isn’t sheared or something. I didn’t know if it could be fried from spinning dry
Thanks!

I’m 80% sure I got the converter to drop in- tipping the trans down, spinning it, and trying it clocked a bunch of ways took a couple hours but I remember pulling it slightly back out to touch the flexplate when I bolted it up. And of course I forgot to mark the offset hole so it took a few tries spinning the motor around before all 4 bolts went in...

Assuming the pump drive is engaged- Is there a good chance the problem could be either in the valve body or accessable once the valve body was dropped? I’d hate to pull the trans to find out it was something that could be fixed just dropping the pan. Plus I sprung for a pan with a drain and a nice one piece rubber gasket so dropping the valve body is pretty easy and I can get a brand new oil pan to catch the atf and reuse it- dipstick reads super clean not burnt

Read my PM about diagnosing your issue further.

You can’t burn the converter up doing what you have done so far.
If broken drive lugs - you may have scored up the pump rotor pocket but you won’t know either until you get it apart.

The manual valve supplied in the TF-2 kit allows converter fill in Park. Symptoms point to failed pump drive lugs.

Once I pull the valve body is it possible to cover the pump suction port with my hand while cranking with the ignition off to see if it is pulling? That way I would know for sure if it’s the pump or something else.

see tech archive on moparts for air checking servos and drums with valve body down
gary

Go through the valve body, if all good - a better test for the pump is reinstall the valve body and pan then add all the fluid in to the trans.

Note how high the fluid is on the dipstick before starting the engine.

Start the engine and run it for a few minutes and check again. If the fluid level is lower then the pump is working.
When you pull the valve body the converter will lose some of it’s fluid. Upon startup you will fill the converter which will lower the fluid - if the pump is working.

Once you get the valve body apart take a pic and post it of the end of the regulator valve - the end that sticks out once installed in the valve body.

Only 7 qts thats not near enough to fill am trans and converter takes more like 12......I's add more fluids before pulling anything apart

Do you have a stock valve body or a core trans to get a valve body to swap it with? As you said you have a drain plug and reusable gasket. If you did something wrong when you did the valve body you probably won't know what it is by looking at it. Ten bolts when the pan is off, air test the case ports and try the stock one. All your out is a little time and oily hands.

Warning: staggering stupidity below. File under “who sold this guy tools?!”

Welp after figuring out that I had to roll the rear wheels with my foot to free the parking pawl I got the valve body on the bench. Guess what? I found something RIGHT AWAY. Oh man this is so dumb I’m embarrassed. My filter extension was on backward.

I remember fiddling with them and I know exactly how I managed to not pay attention to such a simple step- there are three holes in the filter and extension block for the deep pan and one is offset. I think I assembled the filter to the extension block with the gaskets and long screws and spun it around until all 3 screws found threaded holes to start into by hand. I stupidly assumed that the offset bolts would make it only install one way- the shape of the block makes kind of an optical illusion that the middle screw is closer to one of the others.

Well apparently it is possible to install backwards. Not being familiar with the auto I didn’t look thru the extension block to be sure it lined up with something.

I’m not going to beat myself up too bad I’m just happy that a pint fell out of the trans with the VB removed. Maybe it sucked enough fluid to lube things a tiny bit even if it had no pressure. There was a tiny drip when I pulled a cooler line. The fluid is clear and there is nothing burnt or shaved into the pan.

What’s even funnier is that if I had went ahead and filled it until the VB was fully submerged it probably would have started working until it made and ate enough dirt to clog something from filterless running.

Oh man this is the cheapest fix ever. I guess the lesson is don’t take anything for granted and double check everything even dumb stuff that barely requires instruction.

Welcome to the club on how to become a expert on fixing Mopars

Thanks Cab!

I’d rather feel dumb than broke any day

She runs through the gears turning tires like she should! Quick rev on the brake went to 2500 which seems right for a big motor in front of the 2400 holeshot converter. Now to get back to tuning and figuring out what she likes to make fire for a cold start. Gonna go around the block a few times then change the oil. Can’t wait to put her back on the ground to move under her own power for the first time since last summer!

Thanks everybody for your time and thoughts I greatly appreciate being part of this community

Happy but a little red in the face,
Radar

Hey Radar we have all had those moments and honestly probably will till the day we die. At least you aren't paying someone to do those mistakes for you because that happens too. Keep on moving forward with your head up and enjoy the Summer. Ohhh by the way we had a post on Moparts about some of OUR screw-ups and trust me we have ALL done some real dozies. LOL. Some guys just won't admit to it.

Like others have said at least you had the stones to try it yourself! good job don't worry about messing that up it will make you pay more attention next time you are into something technical.

Good Job! I was leaning toward broken tangs too but was an easy fix

When we Whup MR. Murphy it feels really good doesn't it.
I really wish that devil would stop testing me though

I been building transmissions for 40 years now, and I still get a funny tingle when I put it in gear the first time. 99% of the time they work, but every once in a while something wierd happens. If you are going to keep fixing transmissions buy yourself a gauge set. Harbor freight has some cheap. A gauge reading and understanding what pressure is supposed to be, will help you fix that 1% much quicker. And that lesson you just learned will be with you forever, those that never make a mistake are those that never do anything.

that's much better then going to bolt the torque converter up and there is no flexplate on the engine, don't ask :):)
gary

Yikes!
Nothing like having to take out and reinstall the trans a second time...

hey radar ! don't feel too bad. i have found out the older i get, the dumber i become. bonehead moves on my part happen frequently.
glad ya got it figgered out !

Thanks fellas. Since the trans fix cost $17 for a clean new drain pan so I could reuse the minty atf I celebrated by ordering some dynamat xtreme to dampen some of the resonance in the cab. It wouldn’t catch R yesterday- found the trans finally finished burping. Adding some atf seems to have got it shifting nicely again.

I hate adding trans fluid- once the dipstick tube is used as a filler neck the stick just always comes back wet. Tomorrow I will check it again. I’m at 10.5 quarts which seems right.

I hope you can get things moving again and enjoy your ride.

Make sure and check it in neutral with warm to hot fluids

How long did you run it before pulling the VB? I'm wondering how much damage was done to the pump running it "dry".

Hi John. It ran for 25-30 mins before I dropped the pan and removed the valve body. I always assemble oil pumps with grease so they have good suction and are not dry on start up. The blue sticky trans building grease was applied liberally and when I pulled the VB the trans lost a good pint or more of clean unburnt atf from the holes above the valve body so it did get some lube slung around, just never built any pressure.

It still isn’t a proven rebuild but I’m optimistic. It shifts well in D and had trouble hitting R a couple times before I topped it off. Still gotta try out the tf2 kit & ratchet slap shifter. Should bark out some nice upshifts if I shift manually and keep it above stall speed. It’s been raining here and my work week centers around fri/sat. So I haven’t been able to get out for testing and shakedowns. I’m itching and nervous to beat on it a little around the neighborhood to test it out and seat the rings before the post break in oil change.

Pic says it all 😎

This picture says, Beware, wild man ahead

After topping off the atf and getting the synchronization perfect on the shifter cable Reverse hasn’t acted up since. It still doesn’t pop into reverse as solidly as it does in drive though. Maybe it could use a band adjustment to be perfect. As song as it consistently goes backwards when I want to leave a parking spot I’m good. It had more of a shudder while reversing before which is mostly gone.

When I was in there I should have re-checked the band adjustment. The piston and spring looked good to my untrained eye though. I’m not in a hurry to drop the trans pan and valve body again. Gotta get some more seat time!

I just had my tranny rebuilt, had a deep pan on it, when I pulled pan to diagnose converter locking up at stop signs. Guess what, filter spacer was on 180 degrees off. It was done by a shop that should have known better. Don’t beat yourself up. Jim