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Comp Cams additive: 9500-9600 ppm
Brad Penn: 1600-1700 ppm
Valvoline VR1: 1200-1300 ppm
Rotella T: 1200-1300 ppm
Red Line: 1100-1200 ppm
Royal Purple: 800-900 ppm
Lucas: 800-900 ppm
Valvoline: 700-800 ppm
SuperTech (Walmart): 600-700 ppm

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I had heard that the new Rotella T has a lower content ZDDP. Those numbers look like what the older stuff had. Do you know how recently the Rotella was purchased?

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I had heard that the new Rotella T has a lower content ZDDP. Those numbers look like what the older stuff had. Do you know how recently the Rotella was purchased?

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The older Rotella is CI. The later with the reduced ZDDP is CJ.

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exceeds
API SERVICES CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4 CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF/SM.

So, just what is what? It has both ci and cj, not to mention ch, cg, cf and cf/sm. What does all that mean?

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exceeds
API SERVICES CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4 CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF/SM.

So, just what is what? It has both ci and cj, not to mention ch, cg, cf and cf/sm. What does all that mean?

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If it has CJ or "low emissions" on the bottle, it is the new emissions friendly diesel oil, which means it has the reduced additive package. Diesel oils typically had boosted Zinc levels, but they also have a high detergent package that in essence tries to clean off the anti-wear coating. I would consider a CJ oil to be borderline. I'm not using them.

For passenger car rated oils, avoid anything with SM or SN rating UNLESS it specifically calls out protection like the silver bottle of VR-1 does.

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My silver bottle of full synthetic Valvoline doesn't say anything special about 'protection'.

It says on the label;

exceeds
API SERVICES SL/SJ, CF/CD, ILSAC GF-3

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It would be interesting to know the API SERVICE classification of the actual oil you tested for each brand, that's pretty important to compare it would seem?

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My silver bottle of full synthetic Valvoline doesn't say anything special about 'protection'.

It says on the label;

exceeds
API SERVICES SL/SJ, CF/CD, ILSAC GF-3

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Your bottle is not VR-1. It is regular Valvoline synthetic. The SL rated oil is the last API rated oil before they went to SM which dramatically reduced the ZDDP levels. This reduction has been occuring over time. Your SL oil is ok for a street engine. If you bought the same bottle today, it would likely be SM or SN rated which would not be OK.

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I presume the VR means it's a 'Valvoline Racing' oil? No it doesn't have VR-1 on the bottle. It also doesn't have SM or SN on the bottles. It's been a couple years since I bought this case. I'll be needing some more sorta soon.

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I presume the VR means it's a 'Valvoline Racing' oil? No it doesn't have VR-1 on the bottle. It also doesn't have SM or SN on the bottles. It's been a couple years since I bought this case. I'll be needing some more sorta soon.

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Yes, the VR-1 in the silver bottle is badged as "Racing Oil". It is a conventional oil with a street detergent package. The black bottle of VR-1 racing oil is synthetic and does not have the same detergent package. The black bottle is intended for users who are going to change oil more frequently, like after a race weekend. I would think it's fine for our low mileage cars that we change once a year.

If you were to go to the store and buy the regular Valvoline oil that you have in your two year old case, it will be the newer formula that you do not want.

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I presume the VR means it's a 'Valvoline Racing' oil? No it doesn't have VR-1 on the bottle. It also doesn't have SM or SN on the bottles. It's been a couple years since I bought this case. I'll be needing some more sorta soon.

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Yes, the VR-1 in the silver bottle is badged as "Racing Oil". It is a conventional oil with a street detergent package. The black bottle of VR-1 racing oil is synthetic and does not have the same detergent package. The black bottle is intended for users who are going to change oil more frequently, like after a race weekend. I would think it's fine for our low mileage cars that we change once a year.

If you were to go to the store and buy the regular Valvoline oil that you have in your two year old case, it will be the newer formula that you do not want.

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I'd heard that even the synthetic isn't that good anymore. Which is why I bought the diesl oil. I've used both the Valvoline I mentioned above and the Shell Rotella diesl oil for the past couple/few years. Thanks for the info.

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I presume the VR means it's a 'Valvoline Racing' oil? No it doesn't have VR-1 on the bottle. It also doesn't have SM or SN on the bottles. It's been a couple years since I bought this case. I'll be needing some more sorta soon.

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I presume the VR means it's a 'Valvoline Racing' oil? No it doesn't have VR-1 on the bottle. It also doesn't have SM or SN on the bottles. It's been a couple years since I bought this case. I'll be needing some more sorta soon.

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Info here on the 3 different VR-1/Racing Oils available;

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/

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I presume the VR means it's a 'Valvoline Racing' oil? No it doesn't have VR-1 on the bottle. It also doesn't have SM or SN on the bottles. It's been a couple years since I bought this case. I'll be needing some more sorta soon.

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Info here on the 3 different VR-1/Racing Oils available;

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/

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I like the Valvoline VR1 oil. No problems here.
I wonder if anyone has heard about the Lucas zinc break-in/ oil additive?

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Has anyone read a clear and understandable explanation of why ZDDP is favored in oils for high contact pressures, but MoS2 is favored in greases?

Sample quotes

MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1–100 µm is a common dry lubricant. Few alternatives exist that can confer the high lubricity and stability up to 350 °C in oxidizing environments. Sliding friction tests of MoS2 using a pin on disc tester at low loads (0.1–2 N) give friction coefficient values of <0.1.
Molybdenum disulfide is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss, thus finding a use in critical applications such as aircraft engines.

Examples of some diverse applications of MoS2-based lubricants include two-stroke engines (e.g., motorcycle engines), automotive CV and universal joints, ski waxes,[10] and even some bullets.
.....

The main use of ZDDP is in anti-wear additives to lubricants such as greases, gear oils, and motor oils, which often contain less than 1% of this additive. It has been reported that zinc and phosphorus emissions may damage catalytic converters and standard formulations of lubricating oils for gasoline engines now have reduced amounts of the additive, though diesel engine oils remain at higher levels. Crankcase oils with reduced ZDDP have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car flat tappet camshafts and lifters which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces, and in other regions such as big-end/main bearings, and piston rings and pins. Roller camshafts are more commonly used to reduce camshaft lobe friction in modern engines.

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide#Petroleum_refining

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate

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Thanks for posting this!

I use the Comp additive with 10w30 Valvoline. I suppose you would divide those numbers by the number of quarts to compare to the others?

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I'm wondering too.

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Does anybody use this:

http://www.zddplus.com/

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I've used this stuff for a few years now on my engines with the high spring rates and agressive lobes...So far so good.. .I guess if nothing flies apart it's working... ..Seriously though I use it in addition to a high zinc oil so mabe it's overkill mabe not...I wait until it's on sale and snag a bunch of them...

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This is some really good information. I noticed you did not test the Joe Gibbs brand oil. I would really have been interested in that as I am currently using the HR series in my modified 440.

A couple of years ago, I was fortunate enough to attend a presentation put on by one of the reps from Joe Gibbs oil, Lake Speed Jr. It was a very good presentation highlighting the evolution of the car oil industry. The one comment I recall is the modern oils have too much detergent in them today for our older muscle cars. Even with the addition of the ZDDP product, there is nothing you can do to remove the high level of detergent. I, like most of you was looking into adding the ZDDP into my old cars but after this, I will only use something with the right combination of additives. For now, it happens to be Joe Gibbs oil. I have way too much invested in the modified motor to risk the oil side, even if it costs more.

Garth

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Does anybody use this:

http://www.zddplus.com/

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I've used this stuff for a few years now on my engines with the high spring rates and agressive lobes...So far so good.. .I guess if nothing flies apart it's working... ..Seriously though I use it in addition to a high zinc oil so mabe it's overkill mabe not...I wait until it's on sale and snag a bunch of them...

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This is some really good information. I noticed you did not test the Joe Gibbs brand oil. I would really have been interested in that as I am currently using the HR series in my modified 440.

A couple of years ago, I was fortunate enough to attend a presentation put on by one of the reps from Joe Gibbs oil, Lake Speed Jr. It was a very good presentation highlighting the evolution of the car oil industry. The one comment I recall is the modern oils have too much detergent in them today for our older muscle cars. Even with the addition of the ZDDP product, there is nothing you can do to remove the high level of detergent. I, like most of you was looking into adding the ZDDP into my old cars but after this, I will only use something with the right combination of additives. For now, it happens to be Joe Gibbs oil. I have way too much invested in the modified motor to risk the oil side, even if it costs more.

Garth

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What does "too much detergent" do to an old engine? I can see where adding a high detergent oil to a crusty, carboned-up old engine might be bad, but I wouldn't think most enthusiasts are running highly sludged old engines. Most will have been rebuilt sometime in the last 20 years, and are well maintained.

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This is some really good information. I noticed you did not test the Joe Gibbs brand oil. I would really have been interested in that as I am currently using the HR series in my modified 440.

A couple of years ago, I was fortunate enough to attend a presentation put on by one of the reps from Joe Gibbs oil, Lake Speed Jr. It was a very good presentation highlighting the evolution of the car oil industry. The one comment I recall is the modern oils have too much detergent in them today for our older muscle cars. Even with the addition of the ZDDP product, there is nothing you can do to remove the high level of detergent. I, like most of you was looking into adding the ZDDP into my old cars but after this, I will only use something with the right combination of additives. For now, it happens to be Joe Gibbs oil. I have way too much invested in the modified motor to risk the oil side, even if it costs more.

Garth

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What does "too much detergent" do to an old engine? I can see where adding a high detergent oil to a crusty, carboned-up old engine might be bad, but I wouldn't think most enthusiasts are running highly sludged old engines. Most will have been rebuilt sometime in the last 20 years, and are well maintained.

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Which Rotella T? Synthetic or Dino oil?

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Oops. I just checked and my previous response was incorrect. The Rotella that was tested was the synthetic T5 oil.

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Does anyone use diesel oil in their classic?

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Does anyone use diesel oil in their classic?

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Yep. 15-40 in the Duster, and in the 79 van. I even run the 10-30 semi syn in my 93 Corolla.

10-30 should be fine for most applications. I had run the 15-40 in the others because I got a killer buy on it for the Cummins which takes 3 gallons.

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Thanks for this - when you read the ZDDPlus literature they warn against using diesel oil because of the detergents in the oil.

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Does anyone use diesel oil in their classic?

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Yep. 15-40 in the Duster, and in the 79 van. I even run the 10-30 semi syn in my 93 Corolla.

10-30 should be fine for most applications. I had run the 15-40 in the others because I got a killer buy on it for the Cummins which takes 3 gallons.

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Thanks for this - when you read the ZDDPlus literature they warn against using diesel oil because of the detergents in the oil.

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Does anyone use diesel oil in their classic?

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Does anyone use diesel oil in their classic?

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Sure do. Shell Rotella T 15w40 for years, but I've switched to Delo 400 LE 15w40 with 1350 ppm zinc. I add about a half bottle of Red Line zinc additive per oil change for good measure. Last time I had the engine open, about 2 years ago, it looked like new.

Delo 400 LE is an "all fleet motor oil". Meaning gas engines too.

PS, I also mix avgas with pump gas for the lead to lube the valves. 2.5 gals of avgas to 8 gals of pump gas. I also run "clear" premium gas when I can.

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I knew about the Brad Penn four years ago !

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Yes, but results obtained using inductively coupled plasma atomic emission spectroscopy aren't nearly as accurate as NAA.

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Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP.

R.

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Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP.

R.

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So there is the first comment I've heard about the effectiveness of the ZDDP. And indication that a high number on a chemical test may night correlate with the effectiveness (actual use).

Here's a novel thought...How about get tests on the actual Extreme Pressure (EP) wear? If you are worrying about cam lifter wear, test for that wear. Who cares what chemicals are in it, see if it works!

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Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP.

R.

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So there is the first comment I've heard about the effectiveness of the ZDDP. And indication that a high number on a chemical test may night correlate with the effectiveness (actual use).

Here's a novel thought...How about get tests on the actual Extreme Pressure (EP) wear? If you are worrying about cam lifter wear, test for that wear. Who cares what chemicals are in it, see if it works!

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There have been literally thousands of tests done that have shown that ZDDP is an effective anti-wear oil additive. While there are certainly many different factors other than ZDDP-content that will effect wear, the zinc content was something that we could easily determine with ~1% uncertainties using NAA. EP tests are notorious for high uncertainties.

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Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP.

R.

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Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP.

R.

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Then why is it that so many users of diesel oils have no problems. Guys, many guys over on the race forum use 15W40 "diesel" HD engine oils and have no problems. Is it only Joe Gibbs that says this? If so, maybe to help their sales? Don't you think if this was a fact that it would be well known? But, yet it isn't. Just saying.

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Some detergents can have effects on the ability of ZDDP to act as an anti-wear agent. The problem is that the types of detergents used in specific brands is usually proprietary. Most race oils (Brad Penn, some Valvoline, others) are careful not to use high levels of detergents that will off-set the benefits of ZDDP.
ZDDP certainly isn't the only anti-wear compound in motor oils, but it is one of the few with an element with a nice NAA signature (zinc). It's hard to tell ones with hydrogen, carbon, etc. from the oil itself.

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Some detergents can have effects on the ability of ZDDP to act as an anti-wear agent. The problem is that the types of detergents used in specific brands is usually proprietary. Most race oils (Brad Penn, some Valvoline, others) are careful not to use high levels of detergents that will off-set the benefits of ZDDP.
ZDDP certainly isn't the only anti-wear compound in motor oils, but it is one of the few with an element with a nice NAA signature (zinc). It's hard to tell ones with hydrogen, carbon, etc. from the oil itself.

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So I hate to hijack this thread but has anyone here ever tested the STP oil treatment for its ZDDP content? It says on the bottle that it contains it and somebody online had emailed them about it and they simply said that "adding 16oz of the STP to 4-5qts modern oil will restore to the ZDDP content to what is was in years past" (paraphrasing).

Has anyone tested this or had any long term experience with this? I am running this as my ZDDP additive in my Charger (street car) and so far, so good. Cam still looks fine after couple hundred miles + break-in.

I would be interested if this is a viable alternative as STP is like $2 a bottle as opposed to $10-15 for the pricier stuff or $10+/qt for the already made quarts. I have no problem shelling out the money for these pricier options if they are needed for a street car. I am not winding my engine past 5000 RPM for any amount of time or really laying on it like a race motor.

Just curious...

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My have a connection with an oil compmany that may be able to blend an off road oil, let me know what specs would be best and I'll see what I can do.

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I wouldn't hold my breath on that one !!

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My have a connection with an oil compmany that may be able to blend an off road oil, let me know what specs would be best and I'll see what I can do.

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I'm kinda scratching my head here and wondering why there is still so much hand-wringing and so many people adding potions and buying the expensive Joe Gibbs and Brad Penn stuff when it has now been shown by the independent analysis (for those who didn't believe all the racers posting here or the Valvoline website) that you can just use the inexpensive, over-the-counter Valvoline VR1 and have more than enough ZDDP. As far as engine break-in, just use the Comp Cams or similar break-in oil or additive. Am I missing something?

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Just got off the phone with Chevron tech about "diesel" oils and the detergents in their diesel oil. The detergents are not like Tide or Ajax laundry soap or whatever which wash the surface of something solid. Their detergent is formulated to suspend soot so there is no build-up. The tech guy assured me that there is no harm done running diesel oil in a gas, flat tappet cam engine concerning zinc or anything else. It is formulated to run in both diesel and gas engines. All Fleet Oil

Besides, it makes no sense to me for an oil company to put out an oil with relatively high levels of zinc, then add a detergent to basically wash it away from metal surfaces, now does it. That wouldn't bode well for their product, and Chevron Oils are high quality as well as others.

So again, show me hard data that shows diesel oil "washing" away the effectiveness of zinc in a gas engine.

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My posts were at no one in particular. Yes, and you did say "some". What my comments are pointed at are statements like this:

"It's been mentioned that the high detergent washes off the ZPPD stuff."

And this:

Detergents affect the surface tension of the oil. When the engine is shut off a high detergent oil will run off surfaces quicker than a low detergent. Picture rain water running off freshly waxed paint compared to clinging like a sheet to unwashed paint."

And this:

"Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP."

With no test data or source (web link) to back up their statements.

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My posts were at no one in particular. Yes, and you did say "some". What my comments are pointed at are statements like this:

"It's been mentioned that the high detergent washes off the ZPPD stuff."

And this:

Detergents affect the surface tension of the oil. When the engine is shut off a high detergent oil will run off surfaces quicker than a low detergent. Picture rain water running off freshly waxed paint compared to clinging like a sheet to unwashed paint."

And this:

"Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP."

With no test data or source (web link) to back up their statements.

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Junky, you raise good points, but keep in mind...DELO oils were not engineered for our flat tapped gasoline V8s. Ive spoken directly with several Chevron engineers (I've purchased over a million gallons of DELO 15w40 over the years) who tell me the zinc in their oil is for the punishment that the small end of the rod endures during the uber high compression of a diesel. The detergent is there to keep soot in suspension.

Gasoline engines have different requirements. Yes, DELO oils ARE good, but for our use, I believe there are better answers.

BTW, did you know Chevron DELO is a synthetic blend (at least technically--thank you Castrol)? It just hasn't been marketed that way. It's about to though---DELO XLE ( as opposed to LE) is just about to hit the streets.

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So I hate to hijack this thread but has anyone here ever tested the STP oil treatment for its ZDDP content? It says on the bottle that it contains it and somebody online had emailed them about it and they simply said that "adding 16oz of the STP to 4-5qts modern oil will restore to the ZDDP content to what is was in years past" (paraphrasing).

Has anyone tested this or had any long term experience with this? I am running this as my ZDDP additive in my Charger (street car) and so far, so good. Cam still looks fine after couple hundred miles + break-in.

I would be interested if this is a viable alternative as STP is like $2 a bottle as opposed to $10-15 for the pricier stuff or $10+/qt for the already made quarts. I have no problem shelling out the money for these pricier options if they are needed for a street car. I am not winding my engine past 5000 RPM for any amount of time or really laying on it like a race motor.

Just curious...

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Yes there is a Blackstone or Staveley test floating around somewhere. STP RED came in at JUST under 3000PPM (it was 29xx) and BLUE was about 2000. That means its only good for a SLIGHT bump (about 100PPM) in a crankcase. Do the math. ZDDPlus tested at 71,200ppm (keep in mind its only a 4oz bottle)
I am currently using "Rislone engine oil suppliment with zinc" which supposedly has 15,600ppm and comes in a 11 ounce bottle, available at Oreilly's for $8.50.

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Junky, follow the link to the Joe Gibbs webpage and see what you think they mean.

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/zinc-vs-detergent

R.

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Doesn't say much of anything except for a nice ad for Joe Gibbs products. Lots of broad-brushing. Never comes out and says anything specific.

Only thing they state clearly is:

"Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oils utilize the correct balance of anti-wear additives and detergents, so you don’t need to buy expensive additives to try to “fix” a low zinc (ZDDP) oil."

So, Joe Gibbs' oil is the only motor oil with the correct balance of anti-wear additives and detergents?

That can be said of any oil company's product if they so want to say it in an ad. Like my oil is better than yours.

The ad proves absolutely nothing. It's just an ad.

How people can get out of this ad that diesel oils "wash" away zinc is beyond me.

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Brad Penn: 1600-1700 ppm

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Rotella T: 1200-1300 ppm

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