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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: amxautox]
#1388009
02/16/13 12:28 AM
02/16/13 12:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030
Wisconsin
Aero426
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030
Wisconsin
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Quote:
I presume the VR means it's a 'Valvoline Racing' oil? No it doesn't have VR-1 on the bottle. It also doesn't have SM or SN on the bottles. It's been a couple years since I bought this case. I'll be needing some more sorta soon.
Yes, the VR-1 in the silver bottle is badged as "Racing Oil". It is a conventional oil with a street detergent package. The black bottle of VR-1 racing oil is a synthetic. There is another black bottle of VR-1 which is badged as "Not street Legal" This one does not have the street detergent package. It is made for users who are going to change oil frequently, like after a race weekend.
If you were to go to the store and buy the regular Valvoline oil that you have in your two year old case, it will now be the newer SM or SN formula that you do not want.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: amxautox]
#1388012
02/16/13 12:47 AM
02/16/13 12:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030
Wisconsin
Aero426
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030
Wisconsin
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I presume the VR means it's a 'Valvoline Racing' oil? No it doesn't have VR-1 on the bottle. It also doesn't have SM or SN on the bottles. It's been a couple years since I bought this case. I'll be needing some more sorta soon.
Yes, the VR-1 in the silver bottle is badged as "Racing Oil". It is a conventional oil with a street detergent package. The black bottle of VR-1 racing oil is synthetic and does not have the same detergent package. The black bottle is intended for users who are going to change oil more frequently, like after a race weekend. I would think it's fine for our low mileage cars that we change once a year.
If you were to go to the store and buy the regular Valvoline oil that you have in your two year old case, it will be the newer formula that you do not want.
I'd heard that even the synthetic isn't that good anymore. Which is why I bought the diesl oil. I've used both the Valvoline I mentioned above and the Shell Rotella diesl oil for the past couple/few years. Thanks for the info.
I guess it depends on which oil. With the ratings changing every year or so, it has become something of a moving target. With the Brad Penn and Z-Alt oils you are safe.
Another one that is a good suitable oil but not cheap is Mobil 1 Racing 4T which is marketed as a bike oil. This product is the exact same Mobil 1 that was their NASCAR oil back in the 90's. It's good stuff. The regular Mobil 1 car oil you buy now is the watered down ZDDP package which you don't want.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 340wedge]
#1388014
02/16/13 12:57 AM
02/16/13 12:57 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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I've thought about Amsoil. There's a dealer not too far from me. I've gotten brake lines from him for the AMX and van, and talked to him a little about the oil. Just more to worry about which would be the best.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: moparfan53]
#1388017
02/16/13 01:44 AM
02/16/13 01:44 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
I presume the VR means it's a 'Valvoline Racing' oil? No it doesn't have VR-1 on the bottle. It also doesn't have SM or SN on the bottles. It's been a couple years since I bought this case. I'll be needing some more sorta soon.
Info here on the 3 different VR-1/Racing Oils available;
http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/
On their specs sheet they state that VR1 has between 1300-1400 ppm. 1300 ppm is within the uncertainty of our measurements, so Valvoline seems to be telling the truth. They're on of the few manufacturers that will give ZDDP concentrations.
For what its worth, Rotella T seems to be the best bag-for-buck. Of course there is more to oil than just ZDDP concentrations...
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: moparfan53]
#1388019
02/16/13 02:45 AM
02/16/13 02:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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I'm by no means any authoritative source on motor oils or tribological science (in fact, I just threw in the word "tribological" to sound a little more credible), but I do have a good understanding of the science behind our results and I will guarantee that they're among the most accurate (if not the most accurate) out there. The oil companies, themselves, probably don't know the ZDDP content of their oils as accurately as these NAA results. I ran a flat tappet 383 that I bought with high-mileage on it for years in the early 2000s on nothing but the cheapest oil money could buy with no problems. On the other hand, I know, personally, of many people who have had flat tappet motors go bad, with the failure attributed to low ZDDP levels. Since I built my last 440-based motor, I used Valvoline VR1. It was only on the last oil change that I tried Brad Penn. Some claim to notice that using Brad Penn results in less cam noise, but I haven't really noticed any remarkable difference. 
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 1968RR]
#1388020
02/16/13 02:59 AM
02/16/13 02:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 610
White Creek, NY
408cuda
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 610
White Creek, NY
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Have you ever done any testing on Cen-pe-co? http://www.cen-pe-co.com/ Big in the diesel truck and tractor pulling world. They tell me it's high in zinc, just started using it in a few engines in the shop. Parraffin base sweet crude supposed to be clingy, heavy zddp, refined in US! Been running VR1 in my 408 since the start. Wont know how good it really is until down the road I reckon.
Stuff I own
Self promotion
Things someone else said I claim as my own
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 408cuda]
#1388021
02/16/13 07:59 AM
02/16/13 07:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,028
The Grand State of Confusion-O...
SKR8PN
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,028
The Grand State of Confusion-O...
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A few other small items some of you are forgetting.......
First of all, if the engine is already "broken-in" as in has a few thousand miles(or lots more) on it, The ZDDP requirements are a lot less than when you are breaking in a brand new engine. Also some other things to take into consideration, is, cylinder wall to piston clearances,ring tension/end gaps, bore concentricity, camshaft lift/duration and valve spring pressures on a flat tappet type of cam, not to mention the material all these items are made from. ALL of these play a large part in how much ZDDP you do or do not need to keep the engine alive.
Just tossing that out there as food for thought.
Karma has no menu. You get served what you deserve.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: kdcarman]
#1388023
02/16/13 04:07 PM
02/16/13 04:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
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I've also read that zddp is more critical when running high lift cams. The higher the lift the higher the spring rate causing more force on the lifter to cam lobe...pressure. So by that I gather a stock 318ci 2 bbl engine doesn't need near as much zddp than that of a highly modified 440 with a high lift cam. Something else I've studied is that 1000 to 1200 zddp is plenty for a stockish engine. Personally I run 15w40 Shell Rotella T or Dello400 LE with a half bottle of Red Line lead additive. Dello400 LE has 1300 zddp. With the half bottle of Red Line it's up to approximately 1500 zddp. BTW, 2 years ago I broke in a high lift cam of 0.518" lobe lift with 15w40 Shell Rotella T and a bottle of STP in the RED bottle. No problems. They don't make the STP in the red bottle any more.  It is/was high in zddp.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 1968RR]
#1388025
02/17/13 08:36 AM
02/17/13 08:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
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Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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Has anyone read a clear and understandable explanation of why ZDDP is favored in oils for high contact pressures, but MoS2 is favored in greases? Sample quotes MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1–100 µm is a common dry lubricant. Few alternatives exist that can confer the high lubricity and stability up to 350 °C in oxidizing environments. Sliding friction tests of MoS2 using a pin on disc tester at low loads (0.1–2 N) give friction coefficient values of <0.1. Molybdenum disulfide is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss, thus finding a use in critical applications such as aircraft engines. Examples of some diverse applications of MoS2-based lubricants include two-stroke engines (e.g., motorcycle engines), automotive CV and universal joints, ski waxes,[10] and even some bullets. ..... The main use of ZDDP is in anti-wear additives to lubricants such as greases, gear oils, and motor oils, which often contain less than 1% of this additive. It has been reported that zinc and phosphorus emissions may damage catalytic converters and standard formulations of lubricating oils for gasoline engines now have reduced amounts of the additive, though diesel engine oils remain at higher levels. Crankcase oils with reduced ZDDP have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car flat tappet camshafts and lifters which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces, and in other regions such as big-end/main bearings, and piston rings and pins. Roller camshafts are more commonly used to reduce camshaft lobe friction in modern engines. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide#Petroleum_refininghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate
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