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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter's Project?
[Re: tywebb2]
#862843
11/25/10 01:13 AM
11/25/10 01:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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Milling the heads .050" to get me to 74cc and then using the standard .039" head gasket would put me at 10.54:1 by my numbers. This would in effect be very close to .040" off the heads with a .027" head gasket...just a lot cheaper....right?
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: tywebb2]
#862846
11/25/10 12:52 PM
11/25/10 12:52 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
deaks
master
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master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
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My old 440 block had trw 6 pack pistons, i ran RPM heads milled to 76cc and copper coated steel shim head gaskets. My cam was R280, 280/280 AT .050, .670/670 lift and that cleared fine.
I used shims to get the comp as high as possible because the cam was too big.
Mick
69 Dart GTS 440 mopar .590 cam, Edelbrock heads, 3200#
best et 6.45, 106.78, 10.14, 132.88 mph, 1.47 60ft
best 60ft 1.36
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440) This Winter's Project ?
[Re: deaks]
#862847
11/25/10 01:07 PM
11/25/10 01:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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I think I am going to definately pull the heads, have them milled, have the guy I know do a little port work on them and then see what happens. Is it safe to reuse the cometic MLS gaskets? I will probably just mill a little more off the heads and go with the standard .039" Felpros but had to ask. I am just looking for a couple more tenths to get me into the 11.5's or a little deeper so I can race on an 11.5 index next year. That is my limit because I don't want to cage the car. This sounds like the ticket and budget friendly 
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter's Project?
[Re: tywebb2]
#862849
11/25/10 05:31 PM
11/25/10 05:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
Milling the heads .050" to get me to 74cc and then using the standard .039" head gasket would put me at 10.54:1 by my numbers. This would in effect be very close to .040" off the heads with a .027" head gasket...just a lot cheaper....right?
Yes it would have the same compression but you would be losing a .012 of Quench.
Quench is your friend to help resist detonation when you raise the comp closer to the threshold. Wicth is what your doing.
Id keep the .047 quench , shave the heads .050 and reuse the Cometics. Its been done several times here by members of this board.
Further on quench, its been once tested by a associate of Vizard. On a 350 ,450 hp motor each .010 tighter quench = a 7hp increase. With the Same comp.
Your 440 could see more then 7 HP per .010 or not. So why throw that posibilty away and increase your detonation risks at the same time.
The www.kb-silvolite.com , calc that I like to use over the Wallace calc gives 11.07 comp with 74cc .03 gasket and 4cc reliefs.
I know, I know, they are 7cc and your cometic is .027 thick. The above will need recalculated, but its ball park.
If you click on the above link, look for Calculaters. mike
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter's Project?
[Re: Sport440]
#862850
11/25/10 05:40 PM
11/25/10 05:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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Wouldn't the quench effect be virtually the same either way? The piston is still down in the hole .0205". The only difference is you are taking more off of the head which is made up by the thicker head gasket. So the combustion chamber of the head would still be the same distance away from the piston. Am I missing something here?
What is the ideal quench height? I am curious how far off I would be at .047"?
Can anyone confirm that they have reused Cometic MLS head gaskets without any problems? I am a little scared to do that.
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter's Project?
[Re: tywebb2]
#862851
11/25/10 05:59 PM
11/25/10 05:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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No with a .020 deck + .027 is .047 quench,
.020 deck + .039 is .059 quench.
These arent my rules but KB,s After .060 quench, the benifits drop off fast. KB uses the word forfeited after .060
So .060 would be the max .050 would be better and .040 better yet. After that things get way to close for the average home builder. Every piston deck height to head clearence should be checked.
Like Cab eluded to earlier, stock deck heights are not consistant from front to back and side to side. Im sure yours arent either, so that .020 deck may be .027 in some cyl,s. Because of that some builders would suggest you go no tighter then .045 to .050. I havent heard of any 440 block going tighter then .033 without contact Aluminum rods need greater clearences. mike
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter's Project?
[Re: Sport440]
#862852
11/25/10 06:23 PM
11/25/10 06:23 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
deaks
master
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master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
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I measured my pistons at .018 down, that's why i used shims to get a good quench.
69 Dart GTS 440 mopar .590 cam, Edelbrock heads, 3200#
best et 6.45, 106.78, 10.14, 132.88 mph, 1.47 60ft
best 60ft 1.36
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter's Project?
[Re: AAR-B4]
#862855
11/25/10 11:27 PM
11/25/10 11:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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Thanks for the recommendation but I am determined to get my car to an 11.5 or better with the MP 509 cam.
I am wondering....how much do you think I can gain by just having the heads milled vs. milling the heads and some light port work? The guy I know said he would just do a gasket match and clean up the bowls under the intake valves. He has a flow bench and said he would give me numbers before and after the work. I remember reading a long time ago that these heads are very good out of the box. I am just wondering if the porting would be a waste of time and to just worry about bumping up the compression?
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter's Project?
[Re: Sport440]
#862857
11/26/10 08:50 PM
11/26/10 08:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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What is the tightest p-to-v clearance I can get away with on the intake valve and still be safe?
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#862858
11/27/10 12:31 PM
11/27/10 12:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,152
SO. CAL.
70blackfish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,152
SO. CAL.
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Quote:
Quote:
They are .0205" down in the hole.
If I was you I would disassemble the short block and have the deck cut .010 to .015, depending on how much piston to cylinder wall clearnances you have now If your running .003 or more piston to wall clearnaces cut the deck .010 and reuse the head gaskets, do the math on that with your current head CC and see what that gets you for a compression ratio, check both KB pistons sight and Wallaces, they do not come up the same using the same specs on both sites    If you have less than .003 piston to cylinder wall shoot for .000(zero) down in the hole, BTW, make sure you check every piston in every cylinder for its piston deck hieght, especially if you haven't already  stock Mopar forged rods are not that close to each other on the lengths a lot of the time My message is to set the deck hieght of the block based on the highest pistons on each side, not just the (only) one you checked on one side of the block
I agree 100% 
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: 70blackfish]
#862859
11/27/10 02:03 PM
11/27/10 02:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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I really didn't feel like going into it that far. I just want to mill the heads to bump the compression up a bit. Looking in the old Mopar Engine book it says .090" of clearance is safe for an auto trans. Based on that I could take .030" off and pick up a half a point in compression. Like I said...all I need is another tenth or two in ET to have a solid 11.5 which is my limit because the car isn't caged.
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: Sport440]
#862861
12/11/10 11:29 AM
12/11/10 11:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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I called Jim Dowell at Racer Brown yesterday just to ask him where the compression "sweet spot" was for the 509 cam. After talking with him he said I would see very minimal gain bumping the compression up a half point. I think he worked it out to about 9hp which he said could potentially get me a tenth. He said my biggest gain would be in a converter change. He said the 10" I am running now is no good. He suggested switching to an 8". I have an ATI that I used to have in the Cuda but pulled out because I didn't like it on the street. He said I could pick up as much as a few tenths switching to the 8". I am going to call ATI next week to see if tightening it up a little would help make it more street friendly while still helping me out at the track. The other option would be a 9.5". I talked to Shawn at Dynamic and he said putting one of their 9.5" verts in would pick up 2-3 tenths over the 10". He also said the vert change should get me 1.5 60' times. So it looks like the head milling project may be on hold depending on what ATI tells me. Or I could do both 
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: tywebb2]
#862862
12/11/10 11:42 AM
12/11/10 11:42 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,395
Pa
Hot 340
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,395
Pa
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Quote:
I called Jim Dowell at Racer Brown yesterday just to ask him where the compression "sweet spot" was for the 509 cam. After talking with him he said I would see very minimal gain bumping the compression up a half point. I think he worked it out to about 9hp which he said could potentially get me a tenth.
He said my biggest gain would be in a converter change. He said the 10" I am running now is no good. He suggested switching to an 8". I have an ATI that I used to have in the Cuda but pulled out because I didn't like it on the street. He said I could pick up as much as a few tenths switching to the 8". I am going to call ATI next week to see if tightening it up a little would help make it more street friendly while still helping me out at the track.
The other option would be a 9.5". I talked to Shawn at Dynamic and he said putting one of their 9.5" verts in would pick up 2-3 tenths over the 10". He also said the vert change should get me 1.5 60' times.
So it looks like the head milling project may be on hold depending on what ATI tells me. Or I could do both
So I guess racer brown advice discredits all the above?
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