Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
#862823
11/24/10 09:14 PM
11/24/10 09:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221 Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
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super gas
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OP
super gas
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Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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One of the things that has bugged me since I built the current engine in my car is that the piston deck height is bad (.0205" in the hole) and the compression is low for aluminum heads (9.9:1).
Right now I have a 440 bored .030" over with TRW six pak pistons, stock rods, stock forged crank, MP 509 hydraulic cam, and 84cc out of the box Eddy heads.
The limiting factor in doing anything more has been my piston to valve clearance because the valve reliefs in the pistons are for stock size valves. Right now I have .120" clearance on the intake and .174" on the exhaust with a .027" cometic head gasket.
My winter project idea is to pull the engine and then pull the pistons to have the valve reliefs enlarged. Then make sure everything is still balanced. Once that is done I can have the heads milled to get my compression up to around 11:1 which would still be ok on pump premium...right? While the heads are off I would also have a guy I know gasket match them and do a little minor porting.
The question is do you think all of this would be a waste of time or would I see some noticeable gains in ET by bumping up the compression and a little head work?
'72 440 Cuda 11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: tywebb2]
#862824
11/24/10 09:23 PM
11/24/10 09:23 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080 organ
maximum entropy
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master
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organ
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are your pistons .0205, or .205 in the hole?
for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: Sport440]
#862827
11/24/10 10:46 PM
11/24/10 10:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221 Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
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super gas
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OP
super gas
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Jarrettsville, MD
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I am using a .027" cometic head gasket currently.
How much of a difference do you think I will see?
How high can I go with the compression and still run on pump gas? Maybe switching to domed pistons would be an option?
How much can you safely mill the Eddy heads? By my calculations 74cc heads will get me to 10.84:1 and 72cc will get me to 11.06:1.
'72 440 Cuda 11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: 602heavy]
#862829
11/24/10 11:34 PM
11/24/10 11:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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master
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Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
As you pointed out , CR wants to be around 10.5;1 & above with alu heads , anything much less will soot & can be a PITA to tune , more power will be had increasing CR from 9.9 to 10.5 than from 10.5 to 11.1 all being relative........cutting the heads .040" should net around 78cc bringing SCR up to around 10.5/1 , piston to valve should be around .080" , may not need to cut those pistons.
The simplest thing to do would be to shave the heads .040 or so. The cc,s of the head with that shave can end up anywhere between 76 and 78 cc,s That will put you around 10.5+ comp.
With my old 906,s every .040 shave = a solid .2 tenth gain in ET. Did it 3 times
With a .040 shave coming from 9.9 you should see about the same. I had the same 509 cam too.
If I were you I wouldnt go any higher then 11.1 with pump gas. You could though, but you have to be Much more carefull with timing/tune and fuel.
If you do have your pistons flycut a .050 shave with a .030 gasket should net you around 11.1 comp.
There will be No need to rebalance with just fly cutting the pistons. You would probably only be removing about a gram or so, if that, in a favorable direction. mike
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: Sport440]
#862831
11/24/10 11:41 PM
11/24/10 11:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542 BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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FWIW, my eddy heads have been cut .100"
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: 602heavy]
#862832
11/25/10 12:02 AM
11/25/10 12:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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master
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Quote:
Mike , the OP is using an ,027" gasket , those pistons have around 6cc reliefs?
Adam, thanks , my comp estimates were with 4cc reliefs. My comp numbers are approximate within .1 or so or maybe looser . mike
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: tywebb2]
#862833
11/25/10 12:02 AM
11/25/10 12:02 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,259 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
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Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
They are .0205" down in the hole.
If I was you I would disassemble the short block and have the deck cut .010 to .015, depending on how much piston to cylinder wall clearnances you have now If your running .003 or more piston to wall clearnaces cut the deck .010 and reuse the head gaskets, do the math on that with your current head CC and see what that gets you for a compression ratio, check both KB pistons sight and Wallaces, they do not come up the same using the same specs on both sites If you have less than .003 piston to cylinder wall shoot for .000(zero) down in the hole, BTW, make sure you check every piston in every cylinder for its piston deck hieght, especially if you haven't already stock Mopar forged rods are not that close to each other on the lengths a lot of the time My message is to set the deck hieght of the block based on the highest pistons on each side, not just the (only) one you checked on one side of the block
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: WILD BILL]
#862834
11/25/10 12:04 AM
11/25/10 12:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221 Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
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super gas
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super gas
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Jarrettsville, MD
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TRW actually says the reliefs are 7cc.
Hmmmm...I wonder if I could get away with cutting the heads and still have enough clearance. Guess I could always cut them and bolt them up without gasket to see what the p-to-v clearance is and then figure out what to do then.
Would cutting the heads .040 mean my ptv clearances would become .080" intake (.120"-.040") and .134" exhaust (.174"-.040")?
'72 440 Cuda 11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: tywebb2]
#862835
11/25/10 12:10 AM
11/25/10 12:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221 Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
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super gas
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super gas
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My #1 regret is that I didn't zero deck the block when I did the original build. I was hoping I could avoid tearing it completely apart. If I can mill .040" and not have to worry about fly cutting the pistons....that may be the way to go.
'72 440 Cuda 11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: WILD BILL]
#862836
11/25/10 12:11 AM
11/25/10 12:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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Quote:
FWIW, my eddy heads have been cut .100"
Thats illegal, Eddy recommends a Max cut of .060
Your heads are going to break in half the first time down the track.
Mines .080
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: Sport440]
#862837
11/25/10 12:15 AM
11/25/10 12:15 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542 BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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Quote:
Your heads are going to break in half the first time down the track.
It wont break till run # 5
BTW..............
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: tywebb2]
#862840
11/25/10 12:22 AM
11/25/10 12:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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master
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Canton, Ohio
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Yes cutting your heads by .040 will reduce the current clearence from .120 to .080 safe enough. But, there is more then just the Depth to worry about. Theres the Radial diameter clearence to consider too. I do not know what diameter the 6 pac pistons are cut for, Stock, 2.14 The depth clearence at .080 would be fine IMO But you also need to check for radial clearence at the edge of the valve. I had that problem on my stock fly cut pistons. I had to reclearence the radial clearence after noticing valve contact kiss marks. I know these things because I am a Keyboard Racer. As I havent raced at the track in 4 years. mike
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: Sport440]
#862841
11/25/10 12:26 AM
11/25/10 12:26 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200 UK
602heavy
pro stock
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pro stock
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UK
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Quote:
I know these things because I am a Keyboard Racer. As I havent raced at the track in 4 years. mike
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Re: Should I Make Engine (440)This Winter?
[Re: 602heavy]
#862842
11/25/10 12:54 AM
11/25/10 12:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221 Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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The valve reliefs in the TRW pistons are for stock size valves. With the Eddy valves being larger the reliefs really aren't doing anything and the valves are contacting the flat part of the piston when I am checking clearance. At least that is how I remember it when I checked with clay a few years ago when I put the eddys on.
Would it make sense for me to take a little more off to allow for a standard Felpro head gasket? They are a heck of a lot cheaper than the Cometic MLS and it is only a mild 440 build we are talking about. Actually, I think I have a set of the Felpros left over from a rebuild kit out in the garage so they would cost me $0.00....which would be nice.
'72 440 Cuda 11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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