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Lessons learned building engines. #579721 01/11/10 05:50 PM 01/11/10 05:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 370 Northeast Georgia 47hudson OP enthusiast
47hudson OP enthusiast Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 370 Northeast Georgia	We have had a lot of posts lately about stroker kits and lots of info and opinions were offered but also a lot of politics and some conflicts of interest. A lot of guys would love to learn more about what it takes to build an engine for there car but get overloaded and have a hard time sifting through all the BS to find good info. Lets have the novice engine builders offer up some of there personal experiences good or bad to help others out who want to try and build their own engines. No politics no second hand opinions just honest experience. I'll start. I have a 493" rb based engine and have been running it since 05. I have an Indy 440-1 head/topend kit. 1050 dom. carb. and run around 12-1 comp. Heads: I was shocked at the OTB condition of the heads you could actually see a ridge exactly where the CNC machine stopped! I was prepared for this by reading posts here on Moparts so I had a friend clean them up and ck the valve job. Next shocker was after installation and engine breakin I found out my push rods were hitting the heads. Even though this was a package deal I still should have checked final fitment better fortunately I avoided any real damage. Bottom end: My kit came unballance from 440source I took it to my machinist to have ballanced and checked out everything was ok and I installed the bottom end using narrow bearings and I used a stud girdle from Hughes. A lot of people don't beleave in girdles but I know I have less cap walk with this engine than with the previous 440. Etc. The oil pickup was originally internal but I later switched to external and feel better about it but never had any real reason for the change. I found out after my favorite machinist retired that sometimes Mopar cam bearings are too tight and you either line bore the block or fit you cam bearings. I think a good machinist who knows Mopars is rare and probably worth a couple extra bucks. Overall: Once all the bugs were worked out I have been very happy with my engine 9.96 so far in a heavy car. I know there is a lot more guys out there with good info to share so lets have it! Please!! personal stories/info only not politics no BS lets help some brothers out!! 5728235-090725_134455.jpg (92 downloads)

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: 47hudson] #579722 01/11/10 07:07 PM 01/11/10 07:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer! torkrules I'm neurotic
torkrules I'm neurotic Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,715 closer to Canadian beer!	Quote: We have had a lot of posts lately about stroker kits and lots of info and opinions were offered but also a lot of politics and some conflicts of interest. A lot of guys would love to learn more about what it takes to build an engine for there car but get overloaded and have a hard time sifting through all the BS to find good info. Lets have the novice engine builders offer up some of there personal experiences good or bad to help others out who want to try and build their own engines. No politics no second hand opinions just honest experience. I'll start. I have a 493" rb based engine and have been running it since 05. I have an Indy 440-1 head/topend kit. 1050 dom. carb. and run around 12-1 comp. Heads: I was shocked at the OTB condition of the heads you could actually see a ridge exactly where the CNC machine stopped! I was prepared for this by reading posts here on Moparts so I had a friend clean them up and ck the valve job. Next shocker was after installation and engine breakin I found out my push rods were hitting the heads. Even though this was a package deal I still should have checked final fitment better fortunately I avoided any real damage. Bottom end: My kit came unballance from 440source I took it to my machinist to have ballanced and checked out everything was ok and I installed the bottom end using narrow bearings and I used a stud girdle from Hughes. A lot of people don't beleave in girdles but I know I have less cap walk with this engine than with the previous 440. Etc. The oil pickup was originally internal but I later switched to external and feel better about it but never had any real reason for the change. I found out after my favorite machinist retired that sometimes Mopar cam bearings are too tight and you either line bore the block or fit you cam bearings. I think a good machinist who knows Mopars is rare and probably worth a couple extra bucks. Overall: Once all the bugs were worked out I have been very happy with my engine 9.96 so far in a heavy car. I know there is a lot more guys out there with good info to share so lets have it! Please!! personal stories/info only not politics no BS lets help some brothers out!! The mechanics of putting building the engine is pretty straight forward. What sinks a lot of people is attention to detail and keeping everything clean. I don't care who does the machine work, supplies the parts, etc. Check everything yourself. Mock everything up first. It might mean putting it together and taking it apart a few times, but believe me you'll be surprise how many "gotchas" you might find during the mock up. Do your piston to valve checks and cam degreeing before final assembly. Once the mock up is done, clean EVERYTHING. Measure all your bearing clearances. Put the cam you are going to use and make sure it turns freely. If it binds, fix it. Take your time. I know it's overkill but get some special tools. Dial bore gauges, tapered ring compressors all help to make things more fool proof. Use the right stuff/Hylomar blue for sealing the oil, timing cover, intake, etc. Use a good break in oil.

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: torkrules] #579723 01/11/10 09:56 PM 01/11/10 09:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 3,354 ohio H HEMIDARTS master
HEMIDARTS master H Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 3,354 ohio	Ill play this game. When we were building one of the race motors, we snapped a couple different piston rings. The ring compressor was not on properly. Lesson learned is dont be afraid to start over, dont force it. We had been told about this great oil. It is Joe Gibbs oil. Well it is really nice oil, but they forgot to tell me to heat it. We found out later that you have to run a pan heater. They want there oil hot when you start the motor. They also want the bearing clearances super tight. Well i did not have either one of those,and i fried the motor in the break in process. It had oil pressure but we checked the bearings,and they were fried. We had to tear whole motor apart and fix everything. Lesson learned is that the latest and greatest may not be the best thing for your application.

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: HEMIDARTS] #579724 01/11/10 10:38 PM 01/11/10 10:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,695 nc E emarine01 master
emarine01 master E Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,695 nc	I have been building diesels for many years and race engines for just a few and all the race were for my sons and I, I found that honing to the proper finish challenging, too many years of diesels with pre honed liners, In my opinion cyl wall finish can make or brake a race engine

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: HEMIDARTS] #579725 01/11/10 10:45 PM 01/11/10 10:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 6,293 Rock Springs Bob_Coomer master
Bob_Coomer master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 6,293 Rock Springs	Quote: We found out later that you have to run a pan heater. They want there oil hot when you start the motor. They also want the bearing clearances super tight. OK Today's lessons... Dont purchase that oil, and dont listen to the people who want "super tight bearing clearances"...LOL This is NOT a Joke class dismissed LOL [color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color] [color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: Bob_Coomer] #579726 01/11/10 11:12 PM 01/11/10 11:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,517 pacific northwest S Stroker Scamp master
Stroker Scamp master S Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,517 pacific northwest	i have one for ya, in highschool i rebuilt my 340, i had no clue what i was doing, so i figured take out the old parts and put in new, so i did new rings and bearings, didnt check anything clearance wise, ps i didnt have anyone helping me, so i put the new parts in and......well it was hard starting and shook alot drove it about 30 miles and then it finally siezed, so that being said from then on i read alot and ask many questions before starting a project,,,,,,,,i still cant believe the thing even ran footbrake N/A SB 408 Scamp 10.10 @ 132 street/strip 73 Duster 340 street strip 12.79 @ 105

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: Bob_Coomer] #579727 01/11/10 11:13 PM 01/11/10 11:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 3,354 ohio H HEMIDARTS master
HEMIDARTS master H Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 3,354 ohio	Quote: Quote: We found out later that you have to run a pan heater. They want there oil hot when you start the motor. They also want the bearing clearances super tight. OK Today's lessons... Dont purchase that oil, and dont listen to the people who want "super tight bearing clearances"...LOL This is NOT a Joke class dismissed LOL i think the oil is great, when used in the proper application. I still use the break in oil and some other stuff to coat my bearings.

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: HEMIDARTS] #579728 01/12/10 12:57 AM 01/12/10 12:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	On my currant R3 W-9 I had all sorts of problems, first it was a new block... I had a shop line bore the mains and the cam tunnel (cam uses 50mm bearings). Well the block sat for a couple of months while I waited for more cash and parts... when I finally started the build (after a good scrubbing of the block and parts) I put the main bearings in and set the crank in... well the crank wouldnt turn... pulled it out and started measuring, found out that the machine shop DIDNT line bore the mains(which I payed for). During the couple of months that the block sat, the machine shop moved... this is when I started dealing with Best Machine... took the block to Chuck and had the mains bored.... put the crank in and now it crashed on the main webs... ground the clearance needed... ok the crank turns fine... the main clearance was fine at .003 every thing on the crank checked out great,this is a 3.79 billet crank with chevy rod journals... I weighed the rods, pistons and all that was correct(I did all that stuff before I took it to Chuck for a balance job)... Ok, now the rings are all filed to fit... pistons, rods, rings are all in.. spins like a dream(I use a torque wrench to check the effort during building)... now the roller cam... I had already put the 50mm bearings in the block... go to slide the cam in... it wont fit in the bearings... I guess the .0015 press fit was too much.. I took the cam into work and had a buddy grind the cam bearing journals .002( I made a plug on my lathe to get the proper fit then mic'd the plug)... after that it pretty much was a easy go.... needless to say I had the engine torn down a good 6-8 times during the build.... FUN Its one thing to build a engine that was at least run before but this was the first NEW block I had done.... now I have a NEW mega block B1 M/C that will get put together pretty soon I must commend Best Machine for their great quality work I beat this little engine big time... has been as high as 9600 rpm but normal is 8200 every pass Sorry for the novel

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: HEMIDARTS] #579729 01/12/10 01:50 AM 01/12/10 01:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,025 Las Vegas, NV dodgeboy11 super stock
dodgeboy11 super stock Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,025 Las Vegas, NV	Quote: Quote: Quote: We found out later that you have to run a pan heater. They want there oil hot when you start the motor. They also want the bearing clearances super tight. OK Today's lessons... Dont purchase that oil, and dont listen to the people who want "super tight bearing clearances"...LOL This is NOT a Joke class dismissed LOL i think the oil is great, when used in the proper application. I still use the break in oil and some other stuff to coat my bearings. You know, they sell a 5w30 break in oil now. A bit on the thin side. I prefer the 30wt. I've broke in 10+ engines on their stuff running regular bearing clearances (.001" per inch of journal size). Anyway, sorry if I got off topic.

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: dodgeboy11] #579730 01/12/10 08:46 AM 01/12/10 08:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,848 MI, usa dvw master
dvw master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,848 MI, usa	I always fit the cam 1st on any build. That way if you have the fit the bearings you can do it dry. A lot easier to re clean the block. My R-3 block did not clear my Stock 72 340 crank. The main webs needed clearancing. The one thing I missed during the build was the upper timing cover holes. They were present but in the wrong location. By this time the whole short block was assembled. Doug

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: dvw] #579731 01/12/10 08:58 AM 01/12/10 08:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,491 the boonies aarcuda I Live Here
aarcuda I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,491 the boonies	dont use a bathroom towel to clean the inside of your block. first off, the wife will be pissed. second of all, the lint from the towel will coat the inside of the block and will eventually get stuck on the oil pump pickup screen causing low oil pressure about 10 minutes into the break in. btw, if there is a coating of oil on the block, you wont even see the lint. trust me, use LINT FREE CLOTHS to clean your stuff It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: aarcuda] #579732 01/12/10 09:42 AM 01/12/10 09:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,226 Peoples republic of clackamas ... A atoetly pro stock
atoetly pro stock A Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,226 Peoples republic of clackamas ...	Don't forget to use a torque wrench on the three cam bolts! Especially if your running a cloyes hex adjust timing set. You will end up with variable cam timing and eventually a worn out timing cover 5729745-IMG_5582.JPG (67 downloads)

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: atoetly] #579733 01/12/10 10:02 AM 01/12/10 10:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 370 Northeast Georgia 47hudson OP enthusiast
47hudson OP enthusiast Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 370 Northeast Georgia	Another one. We have a flat bottom tap to run through the crank and torque conv. to clean the loctite out of the threads during reassembly. We also use 12 point bolts for the crank and converter on the flex plate. Clean the threads, use loctite and no more loose converter bolts. 5729776-091016_114152.jpg (50 downloads)

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: 47hudson] #579734 01/12/10 01:37 PM 01/12/10 01:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,145 Arizona, USA gsmopar super stock
gsmopar super stock Joined: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,145 Arizona, USA	Quote: Another one. We have a flat bottom tap to run through the crank and torque conv. to clean the loctite out of the threads during reassembly. We also use 12 point bolts for the crank and converter on the flex plate. Clean the threads, use loctite and no more loose converter bolts. Yes! I'm not the only one that has experienced loose converter bolts!!!

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: gsmopar] #579735 01/12/10 07:48 PM 01/12/10 07:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 998 Clinton Township, Michigan D Dartin super stock
Dartin super stock D Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 998 Clinton Township, Michigan	Make sure to pay attention to detail. The one you overlook will bite your behind every time. That includes making sure the cam end play is correct. Ask me how I know.....

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: Dartin] #579736 01/12/10 08:14 PM 01/12/10 08:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,080 organ M maximum entropy master
maximum entropy master M Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,080 organ	mock up, mock up, mock up. clean, clean, clean. the final assembly is about 1% of the total equation. it's the reward for weeks and weeks of mock up, mock up... for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: maximum entropy] #579737 01/12/10 08:22 PM 01/12/10 08:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,200 UK 6 602heavy pro stock
602heavy pro stock 6 Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,200 UK	Top & bottom main bearings fitted the right way round would be a good start. Last edited by 602heavy; 01/12/10 08:23 PM.

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: maximum entropy] #579738 01/12/10 08:28 PM 01/12/10 08:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 68 Detroit, MI R RawnDart member
RawnDart member R Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 68 Detroit, MI	Never forget about the oil galley plugs in the block. That was a hard lesson learned when I missed one on the lower RH side of the block.

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: 602heavy] #579739 01/13/10 12:25 AM 01/13/10 12:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,490 smyrna,tn D draginmopars pro stock
draginmopars pro stock D Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,490 smyrna,tn	Quote: Top & bottom main bearings fitted the right way round would be a good start. some Rod bearings also have a upper and lower (one side is chamfered/beveled to help clear the radius on the crank) 5731353-044.JPG (30 downloads) Ha-Ha Racin Havin Fun 101 Howard 68 "Cummins" Satellite 70 W-2 449 "More Door" Dart 70 340 Dart Swinger, 4spd 71 360 Dart Swinger 72 540/ 518 Dart Swinger 73 airwolf 446/a-500 Cuda 73 "Cummins" Crew cab-car hauler 84 446 Dodge Rampage (tube chassis) 92 CTD 11' flat bed 92 CTD club cab 07 Dodge Caliber

Re: Lessons learned building engines. [Re: draginmopars] #579740 01/13/10 12:59 AM 01/13/10 12:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 154 Escondido, CA 64physhy member
64physhy member Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 154 Escondido, CA	Come up with a plan and decide on the combo before you start buying parts. I don't know how much I wasted buying parts impulsively that I ended up not using, then selling for way less than they cost. Also, don't waste the money on a gasket kit (unless it's a stock or mild rebuild). Of the whole kit I bought, I only used a few out of it, the rest (head gaskets, intake gaskets, header gaskets, etc) were better than the ones in the standard kit.

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