Lessons learned building engines.

Posted By: 47hudson

Lessons learned building engines. - 01/11/10 09:50 PM

We have had a lot of posts lately about stroker kits and lots of info and opinions were offered but also a lot of politics and some conflicts of interest. A lot of guys would love to learn more about what it takes to build an engine for there car but get overloaded and have a hard time sifting through all the BS to find good info. Lets have the novice engine builders offer up some of there personal experiences good or bad to help others out who want to try and build their own engines. No politics no second hand opinions just honest experience.

I'll start.
I have a 493" rb based engine and have been running it since 05. I have an Indy 440-1 head/topend kit. 1050 dom. carb. and run around 12-1 comp.

Heads: I was shocked at the OTB condition of the heads you could actually see a ridge exactly where the CNC machine stopped! I was prepared for this by reading posts here on Moparts so I had a friend clean them up and ck the valve job. Next shocker was after installation and engine breakin I found out my push rods were hitting the heads. Even though this was a package deal I still should have checked final fitment better fortunately I avoided any real damage.

Bottom end: My kit came unballance from 440source I took it to my machinist to have ballanced and checked out everything was ok and I installed the bottom end using narrow bearings and I used a stud girdle from Hughes. A lot of people don't beleave in girdles but I know I have less cap walk with this engine than with the previous 440.

Etc. The oil pickup was originally internal but I later switched to external and feel better about it but never had any real reason for the change. I found out after my favorite machinist retired that sometimes Mopar cam bearings are too tight and you either line bore the block or fit you cam bearings. I think a good machinist who knows Mopars is rare and probably worth a couple extra bucks.

Overall: Once all the bugs were worked out I have been very happy with my engine 9.96 so far in a heavy car.
I know there is a lot more guys out there with good info to share so lets have it!

Please!! personal stories/info only not politics no BS lets help some brothers out!!

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Posted By: torkrules

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/11/10 11:07 PM

Quote:

We have had a lot of posts lately about stroker kits and lots of info and opinions were offered but also a lot of politics and some conflicts of interest. A lot of guys would love to learn more about what it takes to build an engine for there car but get overloaded and have a hard time sifting through all the BS to find good info. Lets have the novice engine builders offer up some of there personal experiences good or bad to help others out who want to try and build their own engines. No politics no second hand opinions just honest experience.

I'll start.
I have a 493" rb based engine and have been running it since 05. I have an Indy 440-1 head/topend kit. 1050 dom. carb. and run around 12-1 comp.

Heads: I was shocked at the OTB condition of the heads you could actually see a ridge exactly where the CNC machine stopped! I was prepared for this by reading posts here on Moparts so I had a friend clean them up and ck the valve job. Next shocker was after installation and engine breakin I found out my push rods were hitting the heads. Even though this was a package deal I still should have checked final fitment better fortunately I avoided any real damage.

Bottom end: My kit came unballance from 440source I took it to my machinist to have ballanced and checked out everything was ok and I installed the bottom end using narrow bearings and I used a stud girdle from Hughes. A lot of people don't beleave in girdles but I know I have less cap walk with this engine than with the previous 440.

Etc. The oil pickup was originally internal but I later switched to external and feel better about it but never had any real reason for the change. I found out after my favorite machinist retired that sometimes Mopar cam bearings are too tight and you either line bore the block or fit you cam bearings. I think a good machinist who knows Mopars is rare and probably worth a couple extra bucks.

Overall: Once all the bugs were worked out I have been very happy with my engine 9.96 so far in a heavy car.
I know there is a lot more guys out there with good info to share so lets have it!

Please!! personal stories/info only not politics no BS lets help some brothers out!!

The mechanics of putting building the engine is pretty straight forward. What sinks a lot of people is attention to detail and keeping everything clean.

I don't care who does the machine work, supplies the parts, etc. Check everything yourself. Mock everything up first. It might mean putting it together and taking it apart a few times, but believe me you'll be surprise how many "gotchas" you might find during the mock up. Do your piston to valve checks and cam degreeing before final assembly. Once the mock up is done, clean EVERYTHING.

Measure all your bearing clearances. Put the cam you are going to use and make sure it turns freely. If it binds, fix it. Take your time.

I know it's overkill but get some special tools. Dial bore gauges, tapered ring compressors all help to make things more fool proof.

Use the right stuff/Hylomar blue for sealing the oil, timing cover, intake, etc.

Use a good break in oil.

Posted By: HEMIDARTS

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 01:56 AM

Ill play this game.

When we were building one of the race motors,
we snapped a couple different piston rings.
The ring compressor was not on properly.
Lesson learned is dont be afraid to start over, dont force it.

We had been told about this great oil.
It is Joe Gibbs oil.
Well it is really nice oil, but they forgot to tell me to heat it.
We found out later that you have to run a pan heater.
They want there oil hot when you start the motor.
They also want the bearing clearances super tight.
Well i did not have either one of those,and i fried the motor in the break in process.
It had oil pressure but we checked the bearings,and they were fried.
We had to tear whole motor apart and fix everything.
Lesson learned is that the latest and greatest may not be the best thing for your application.

Posted By: emarine01

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 02:38 AM

I have been building diesels for many years and race engines for just a few and all the race were for my sons and I, I found that honing to the proper finish challenging, too many years of diesels with pre honed liners, In my opinion cyl wall finish can make or brake a race engine

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 02:45 AM

Quote:

We found out later that you have to run a pan heater.
They want there oil hot when you start the motor.
They also want the bearing clearances super tight.

OK
Today's lessons...

Dont purchase that oil, and dont listen to the people who want "super tight bearing clearances"...LOL
This is NOT a Joke

class dismissed LOL

Posted By: Stroker Scamp

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 03:12 AM

i have one for ya, in highschool i rebuilt my 340, i had no clue what i was doing, so i figured take out the old parts and put in new, so i did new rings and bearings, didnt check anything clearance wise, ps i didnt have anyone helping me, so i put the new parts in and......well it was hard starting and shook alot drove it about 30 miles and then it finally siezed, so that being said from then on i read alot and ask many questions before starting a project,,,,,,,,i still cant believe the thing even ran

Posted By: HEMIDARTS

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 03:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

We found out later that you have to run a pan heater.
They want there oil hot when you start the motor.
They also want the bearing clearances super tight.

OK
Today's lessons...

Dont purchase that oil, and dont listen to the people who want "super tight bearing clearances"...LOL
This is NOT a Joke

class dismissed LOL

i think the oil is great, when used in the proper application.
I still use the break in oil and some other stuff to coat my bearings.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 04:57 AM

On my currant R3 W-9 I had all sorts of problems, first
it was a new block... I had a shop line bore the mains
and the cam tunnel (cam uses 50mm bearings). Well the
block sat for a couple of months while I waited for
more cash and parts... when I finally started the build
(after a good scrubbing of the block and parts) I
put the main bearings in and set the crank in...
well the crank wouldnt turn... pulled it out and
started measuring, found out that the machine shop
DIDNT line bore the mains(which I payed for). During
the couple of months that the block sat, the machine
shop moved... this is when I started dealing with
Best Machine... took the block to Chuck and had the
mains bored.... put the crank in and now it crashed
on the main webs... ground the clearance needed...
ok the crank turns fine... the main clearance was
fine at .003 every thing on the crank checked out
great,this is a 3.79 billet crank with chevy rod
journals... I weighed the rods, pistons and all that
was correct(I did all that stuff before I took it
to Chuck for a balance job)... Ok, now the rings
are all filed to fit... pistons, rods, rings are all
in.. spins like a dream(I use a torque wrench to
check the effort during building)... now the roller
cam... I had already put the 50mm bearings in the
block... go to slide the cam in... it wont fit in
the bearings... I guess the .0015 press fit was too
much.. I took the cam into work and had a buddy
grind the cam bearing journals .002( I made a plug
on my lathe to get the proper fit then mic'd the
plug)... after that it pretty much was a easy
go....
needless to say I had the engine torn down a good
6-8 times during the build.... FUN
Its one thing to build a engine that was at least
run before but this was the first NEW block I had
done.... now I have a NEW mega block B1 M/C that will
get put together pretty soon
I must commend Best Machine for their great quality work
I beat this little engine big time... has been as
high as 9600 rpm but normal is 8200 every pass

Sorry for the novel

Posted By: dodgeboy11

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 05:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

We found out later that you have to run a pan heater.
They want there oil hot when you start the motor.
They also want the bearing clearances super tight.

OK
Today's lessons...

Dont purchase that oil, and dont listen to the people who want "super tight bearing clearances"...LOL
This is NOT a Joke

class dismissed LOL

i think the oil is great, when used in the proper application.
I still use the break in oil and some other stuff to coat my bearings.

You know, they sell a 5w30 break in oil now. A bit on the thin side. I prefer the 30wt. I've broke in 10+ engines on their stuff running regular bearing clearances (.001" per inch of journal size).
Anyway, sorry if I got off topic.

Posted By: dvw

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 12:46 PM

I always fit the cam 1st on any build. That way if you have the fit the bearings you can do it dry. A lot easier to re clean the block. My R-3 block did not clear my Stock 72 340 crank. The main webs needed clearancing. The one thing I missed during the build was the upper timing cover holes. They were present but in the wrong location. By this time the whole short block was assembled.
Doug

Posted By: aarcuda

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 12:58 PM

dont use a bathroom towel to clean the inside of your block. first off, the wife will be pissed. second of all, the lint from the towel will coat the inside of the block and will eventually get stuck on the oil pump pickup screen causing low oil pressure about 10 minutes into the break in. btw, if there is a coating of oil on the block, you wont even see the lint. trust me, use LINT FREE CLOTHS to clean your stuff

Posted By: atoetly

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 01:42 PM

Don't forget to use a torque wrench on the three cam bolts! Especially if your running a cloyes hex adjust timing set. You will end up with variable cam timing and eventually a worn out timing cover

Posted By: 47hudson

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 02:02 PM

Another one. We have a flat bottom tap to run through the crank and torque conv. to clean the loctite out of the threads during reassembly. We also use 12 point bolts for the crank and converter on the flex plate. Clean the threads, use loctite and no more loose converter bolts.

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Posted By: gsmopar

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 05:37 PM

Quote:

Another one. We have a flat bottom tap to run through the crank and torque conv. to clean the loctite out of the threads during reassembly. We also use 12 point bolts for the crank and converter on the flex plate. Clean the threads, use loctite and no more loose converter bolts.

Yes! I'm not the only one that has experienced loose converter bolts!!!

Posted By: Dartin

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/12/10 11:48 PM

Make sure to pay attention to detail. The one you overlook will bite your behind every time. That includes making sure the cam end play is correct. Ask me how I know.....

Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 12:14 AM

mock up, mock up, mock up. clean, clean, clean. the final assembly is about 1% of the total equation. it's the reward for weeks and weeks of mock up, mock up...

Posted By: 602heavy

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 12:22 AM

Top & bottom main bearings fitted the right way round would be a good start.

Posted By: RawnDart

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 12:28 AM

Never forget about the oil galley plugs in the block.

That was a hard lesson learned when I missed one on the lower RH side of the block.

Posted By: draginmopars

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 04:25 AM

Quote:

Top & bottom main bearings fitted the right way round would be a good start.

some

Rod bearings also have a upper and lower (one side is chamfered/beveled to help clear the radius on the crank)

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Posted By: 64physhy

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 04:59 AM

Come up with a plan and decide on the combo before you start buying parts. I don't know how much I wasted buying parts impulsively that I ended up not using, then selling for way less than they cost. Also, don't waste the money on a gasket kit (unless it's a stock or mild rebuild). Of the whole kit I bought, I only used a few out of it, the rest (head gaskets, intake gaskets, header gaskets, etc) were better than the ones in the standard kit.

Posted By: draginmopars

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 05:34 AM

Quote:

mock up, mock up, mock up. clean, clean, clean. the final assembly is about 1% of the total equation. it's the reward for weeks and weeks of mock up, mock up...

reminds me of the time I worked for a engine rebuilding company as a warrenty inspector.
went to a shop that the engine was knocking
(2 wks. run-time) all the bearings were trashed..
When asked where they installed the engine at????

They said right here. We blew the floor off and backed her in>>to the BODY shop

(prep side full of sanding dust)
Claim denied

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 06:02 AM

I don't have a bunch of experience, but Im in the middle of a build right now. Im mid-way through my first build in about 25 yars, and I am learning lessons every day. I think I'm doing fairly well though, and I'll offer the following:

PLAN! I am very happy that researched and wrote out a plan for what I wanted, with a spreadsheet budget. You guys here at moparts were a huge help for me, in understanding what I wanted, and didn't want. I didn't start buying any parts until I had researched everything that was going to go into the motor, figuring that changing one part might effect something else. Having this plan and sticking to it has made things a lot easier than I think it would have been had I not gone through this.

READ! If you're a novice, understand and come to grips with the fact that you don't even know what you don't know! I bought books, and read through every step of building a motor from a few different publications. I don't even want to know how much time Ive spent here at Moparts digging through tech archives and reading threads. Even though I'm squarely a novice, the time I've spent reading has paid off so far.

TEAR ONE DOWN! I learned a lot of things about motors years ago working as a tear-down kid at a machine shop. When I decided to build my first BB Mopar, and decided on a 451, I purposefully found a 400 long block, and tore it down to get hands on familiar with a low-deck wedge motor. I then actually sold that motor, when I found a 230-casting bare block & caps locally.

We'll see how this thing turns out, many more lessons to go on this one, I'm sure. Thanks to so many here at Moparts!

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 06:39 AM

Quote:

We had been told about this great oil.
It is Joe Gibbs oil.
Well it is really nice oil, but they forgot to tell me to heat it.
We found out later that you have to run a pan heater.
They want there oil hot when you start the motor.
They also want the bearing clearances super tight.
Well i did not have either one of those,and i fried the motor in the break in process.
It had oil pressure but we checked the bearings,and they were fried.
We had to tear whole motor apart and fix everything.
Lesson learned is that the latest and greatest may not be the best thing for your application.

Gotta be honest... when I read this, I don't think I'd be satisfied with just thinking its bad oil. Something else was wrong here. This is good oil, and if bearings were fried in 20 minutes..... just not gonna believe its the oils fault. It is possible to have pressure at the guage, and not at the bearings...... I think the lesson here is still yet to be discovered.

Posted By: bonefish

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 02:43 PM

the main thing ive learned is that some one who knows what they are doing is WORHTH THE MONEY,i have ,how ever learned quite a bit and can do pretty much most assem. my self on the street strip type builds,but an all out race mill gets a pro built short block at least.OH,one more thing,dont forget to put your torque conv. in before you install the tranny.

Posted By: 602heavy

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 08:32 PM

Quote:

OH,one more thing,dont forget to put your torque conv. in before you install the tranny.

Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 08:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

OH,one more thing,dont forget to put your torque conv. in before you install the tranny.

but without it, it revs REALLY FAST. it's hard to start, though.

Posted By: draginmopars

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 10:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

OH,one more thing,dont forget to put your torque conv. in before you install the tranny.

but without it, it revs REALLY FAST. it's hard to start, though.

I call that "mockin" up the trans/test fittin the bolts
have been known to forget the flex plate, but remember when TC bolts in hand

Posted By: bonefish

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 10:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

OH,one more thing,dont forget to put your torque conv. in before you install the tranny.

but without it, it revs REALLY FAST. it's hard to start, though.

I call that "mockin" up the trans/test fittin the bolts
have been known to forget the flex plate, but remember when TC bolts in hand

YEH,YEH,thats it thats what i was doin ,mokin up the trans

Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 10:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

OH,one more thing,dont forget to put your torque conv. in before you install the tranny.

but without it, it revs REALLY FAST. it's hard to start, though.

I call that "mockin" up the trans/test fittin the bolts
have been known to forget the flex plate, but remember when TC bolts in hand

YEH,YEH,thats it thats what i was doin ,mokin up the trans

checking case alignment. how many of you guys actually do that?

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 10:43 PM

checking case alignment. how many of you guys actually do that?

I do if its the first time for either the trans case
or a new engine

Posted By: draginmopars

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/13/10 10:53 PM

I do that by standin the block "nose down", on wood blocks
crank only in block already.

lots easier to dial-in

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/14/10 06:16 AM

What I learned? Ask alot of questions, and get help from the experts. Plan, use the right tools, and double check everything.

The tight cam bearing issue got me too. I had the rotating assembly installed when I went to install the cam

I have checked the trans case alignment. Finding offset dowl pins was the hard part.

Make sure the bolts do not bottom out before tightening the part (ARP oil pump bolt kit comes to mind.)

Mock up the engine without piston rings and crank seals installed, and make sure the engine spins easy and all the clearances are good (piston to head, piston to valve, retainer to guide, pushrods to head, stroker cranks to block, rods clear block and cylinders, cam endplay, flat tappet cam lifter rotation, etc.)

Posted By: thecarfarmer

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/14/10 07:18 AM

Some things I learned on my pickup's engine...

When you buy a new crank, don't just mic ONE spot on each journal; mic 'em at 90 degrees rotation, two or three spots each along the length of each journal. You'll take 4-6 measurements on EACH of the nine journals on a V8, but you'll spot those tapered journals before it goes together.

Also, once the crank can spin in the block, put a dial on the crank snout where the cam gear, and where the balancer go on. Check for runout.

BTW, it's best to do these things before buying bearings, in case you need to have the crank ground... especially BEFORE YOU TAKE THE KNIFE TO THE BEARINGS TO CLEARANCE 'EM FOR THE BIG CRANK RADII!

Check to make sure that your aftermarket rods that have the little hollow dowel in 'em over the rod bolts don't have any chips crammed down in there. Oh, while you're at it, you might want to file the edge where the hone raised a big burr.

Oh, and while you're checking things, check to make sure that those 1.6:1 rockers you bought aren't really 1.7:1... before the guy working on the heads calls and tells you that you've got a coil bind problem.

By the way, valve spring shims make pretty good rocker spacer shims. They don't have the big, nasty burrs that the stamped pieces you get from the California guys who sold you your stroker kit, heads, rocker shafts, timing set... No burrs, nice little grooves to hold some oil, and available in a few thicknesses.

Another good pre-assembly idea is to take the screen out of the oil pickup and pour the couple teaspoons of casting sand out of it. I hear it's low in zinc and reacts poorly with bearing material

(luckily, I cought that one before it went in the engine)

If you misplace a spirolock from your 440 Source piston, don't bother calling to ask what size to get. They'll 1) ask you how the hell you lost it (had friends help moving things out of ex's garage), and 2) tell you to measure the parts yourself. Yes, that really happened.

Oh, and if you assemble the engine with a stock-volume pump, full-groove main bearings, and Harland Sharp (or other needle-bearing type) rockers, you might not have much oil pressure at a 1200 RPM idle hot with 10/30 oil. Unless you install some restrictors to the valvetrain. DAMHIK

One last one: at least one Charlie's pan that I know of has no bulge in the side to allow a dipstick thru, but seems to have just enough room to allow one to slide by anyway. Found this out AFTER I cut holes for lexan windows in it...

None of this stuff is rocket science, and is everyday stuff to guys who build performance engines - but usually doesn't show up in your typical stock-type overhaul.

-Bill

Posted By: cheapstreetdustr

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/14/10 12:36 PM

a Huge thing i just never hear much about when engine building is being discussed...

INSPECT EVERY PART WHEN DIS-ASSEMBLING YOUR DONNOR OR SALVAGE MOTOR, ORIGINAL USED MOTOR

this may not apply to all ..but if your tearing down your old engine,or used core engine...
if you carefully inspect bearings.wear surfaces..
of the old parts...it will tell you a ton...
and give you problem spots to look out for in the new/fresh build..

if your re-using crank,rods,,heads....

even just the block...the old parts comming out will show tel tale block issues.
for instance line bore
cam bore
lifter bores mis bore..
the parts comming out of those holes may reveal errors in machining..ect.
fwiw..

cheapst

Posted By: dustergirl340

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/14/10 01:15 PM

Make sure ALL rags are accounted for. Don't ask me how I know

(as I plucked one out of the distributor hole)

Posted By: thecarfarmer

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/16/10 03:41 AM

Here's a small-block tip: If you use a short piece of hex stuck in a socket to turn the oil pump for pre-lubing, make sure it's glued into the socket.

Especially of your piece of hex stock is EXACTLY the same length as the socket in the pump shaft.

If you don't do this, then use brake cleaner to get some of the oil behind the hex key so you can fish it out with a magnet.

DAMHIK

When you're building an engine, you might check that your boss ordered the right parts. I learned that one a couple weeks back, at the same time that I learned that 230 Chev I-6 pistons will hit the crank counterweights when assembled on a 250 crank...

Oh, check for lifter rotation on flat tappet cams before shipping 'em; I got to see a few new cams suffer from that.

-Bill

Posted By: Baxter61

Re: Lessons learned building engines. - 01/16/10 06:57 AM

check the accuracy of your balancer against the piston, could prove confusing later.