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#1077394 - 09/18/11 04:29 PM Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * -UPDATE 11/5
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Recently, my car starts when I release the key when it's cranking, not when it's in the run position. If I don't release the key car will just keep cranking.

This happen to anyone else? What is the cause of this?

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#1077395 - 09/18/11 04:33 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
Alaskan_TA Online   content
Fluffy Balladeer

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 27728
Loc: Moredoor, PA
It could be a bad ballast resistor.

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#1077396 - 09/18/11 04:34 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 19625
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Your ignition power feed isn't sending juice to the coil during cranking, only in the run position. Could be a bulkhead connector issue.

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#1077397 - 09/18/11 04:35 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: Alaskan_TA]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 19625
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Quote:

It could be a bad ballast resistor.




Actually no, his problem is the reverse of that. Bad ballast would start while cranking, then die when key is released.

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#1077398 - 09/18/11 04:36 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
mikemee1331 Offline
master

Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 4154
Loc: bethlehem pa
are you saying the key gets stuck in the start position and you have to move it to the run position?

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#1077399 - 09/18/11 04:38 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 19625
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Quote:

Recently, my car starts when I release the key when it's cranking, not when it's in the run position. If I don't release the key car will just keep cranking.

This happen to anyone else? What is the cause of this?




Did you mean to say "not when it's in the START position"?

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#1077400 - 09/18/11 07:19 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: mikemee1331]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

are you saying the key gets stuck in the start position and you have to move it to the run position?




No it does not get stuck it will release.

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#1077401 - 09/18/11 07:22 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Quote:

Recently, my car starts when I release the key when it's cranking, not when it's in the run position. If I don't release the key car will just keep cranking.

This happen to anyone else? What is the cause of this?




Did you mean to say "not when it's in the START position"?




Right, it won't start when I am holding the key in the start position and the car is cranking.
Once I let go and it goes to the run position, the car starts.

I think I got my different positions right...

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#1077402 - 09/18/11 07:24 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Your ignition power feed isn't sending juice to the coil during cranking, only in the run position. Could be a bulkhead connector issue.




So if this was the case, I could test this my checking for juice at the coil when cranking, correct?

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#1077403 - 09/18/11 07:32 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
6PakBee Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5739
Loc: North Dakota
My '72 W200 does the same thing. On mine, if I turn it just until the starter cranks, it'll start. If you crank the switch hard against the 'start' position, it'll crank all day without starting. I tried to run it down once and the best I came up with was that the lock mechanism had worn so much that when you turn to 'start' hard, it allows the ignition switch to turn past the 'run' position.
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#1077404 - 09/18/11 09:48 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: 6PakBee]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
You have a dual side resistor and the start side is open. Pull the spade connectors off the resistor and put the two wires that are on the top on the bottom and vice versa.
Now if your car starts while the key is in the start position and shuts down in the run position.....you have found the problem.

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#1077405 - 09/19/11 04:19 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: mopar_man]
TooMany62s Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 1623
Loc: Greer, SC
I just went through the same thing with one of my cars. In my case it was the ignition switch.

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#1077406 - 09/19/11 08:38 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: mopar_man]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

You have a dual side resistor and the start side is open. Pull the spade connectors off the resistor and put the two wires that are on the top on the bottom and vice versa.
Now if your car starts while the key is in the start position and shuts down in the run position.....you have found the problem.





Not sure where ( what part) you are talking to pull spade connectors from, can you please explain further, thanks.

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#1077407 - 09/19/11 08:39 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: TooMany62s]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

I just went through the same thing with one of my cars. In my case it was the ignition switch.




I just changed the ignition switch ( I was having this issue before I changed it though ).

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#1077408 - 09/19/11 09:04 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
More info ... what year is the car , electronic or points ?? before I can make an ASSumption of the problem .

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#1077409 - 09/19/11 09:42 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
6PakBee Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5739
Loc: North Dakota
Quote:

Quote:

I just went through the same thing with one of my cars. In my case it was the ignition switch.




I just changed the ignition switch ( I was having this issue before I changed it though ).




Same here. I changed the switch out thinking it was the switch. No change in how it responded and continues to respond.
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#1077410 - 09/19/11 11:27 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: JohnRR]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

More info ... what year is the car , electronic or points ?? before I can make an ASSumption of the problem .




70 E body - electronic ignition.

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#1077411 - 09/19/11 12:42 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
Sixgun Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 1606
Loc: Western Washington
Funny this should come up, saves me a post. My buddies 73 chall factory electronic is doing the same thing.I did replace the ign switch last year and IIRC could not connect ALL the wires properly thru the banana column connectors as some well meaning "edisons" had added a FORD starter solenoid, God knows why, and done a few things outside the harness.Cranks normally, but no spark in the "cranking" position.(Makes ZERO ignition noises).I just noticed it only starts when you letta go the key.He, being a newbie, cannot remeber if it always did this or if it's a new thing. He did install a ne ballast a couple weeks ago.


Edited by Sixgun (09/19/11 01:13 PM)

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#1077412 - 09/19/11 12:47 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: Sixgun]
MoparforLife Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 25199
Loc: Upper Midwest
Cheat - install a push button switch to the 2 terminals on the starter relay and mount on the lip of the dash. Yeah I know it is not right but it works and is a semi theft deterrent. Turn key and push button to start.

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#1077413 - 09/19/11 02:10 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:

Quote:

More info ... what year is the car , electronic or points ?? before I can make an ASSumption of the problem .




70 E body - electronic ignition.




Does it have a 2 prong Ballast or a 4 prong ?

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#1077414 - 09/19/11 04:32 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MoparforLife]
roe Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/05
Posts: 3336
Loc: Central TX
Quote:

Cheat - install a push button switch to the 2 terminals on the starter relay and mount on the lip of the dash. Yeah I know it is not right but it works and is a semi theft deterrent. Turn key and push button to start.




Thats how I have mine right now because of ignition issues. Mine has and intermittent "no start" symptom from the key. Sometimes it will fire right up from the key, and sometimes I turn the key and it doesn't even crank. When it acts up I just turn the key to run and hit my push button. I do want to get it straightened out though. I dont like not knowing why its acting up. I cant figure out what the problem is, any tips?
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#1077415 - 09/19/11 06:12 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: roe]
Golden-Arm Offline


Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 10544
Loc: omotive Engineer.
when my RC did that, it ended up being a bad fusible link. i bypassed it with a switch under the dash.
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#1077416 - 09/19/11 06:29 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: Golden-Arm]
RodStRace Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 09/21/05
Posts: 12393
Loc: Chino Valley
Go to yer wirin' diagrams, ya swabbies!
Ya cen see that therrrs a diff circuit be supplying the coil in run 'n start. Iffn you ain't got spark in start, that circuit be caddywumpus...

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#1077417 - 09/19/11 06:44 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: JohnRR]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

More info ... what year is the car , electronic or points ?? before I can make an ASSumption of the problem .




70 E body - electronic ignition.




Does it have a 2 prong Ballast or a 4 prong ?




2

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#1077418 - 09/19/11 06:48 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: RodStRace]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Go to yer wirin' diagrams, ya swabbies!
Ya cen see that therrrs a diff circuit be supplying the coil in run 'n start. Iffn you ain't got spark in start, that circuit be caddywumpus...




So Rod, you with Pacnorthcuda that it's the circuit to the coil?
I don't speak Pirate-ese.

Do you agree with my test to check when cranking at the coil?

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#1077419 - 09/19/11 08:07 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 19625
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Quote:

Quote:

Go to yer wirin' diagrams, ya swabbies!
Ya cen see that therrrs a diff circuit be supplying the coil in run 'n start. Iffn you ain't got spark in start, that circuit be caddywumpus...




So Rod, you with Pacnorthcuda that it's the circuit to the coil?
I don't speak Pirate-ese.

Do you agree with my test to check when cranking at the coil?




I would start earlier in the circuit. Hook up a test light to the drivers side of the ballast resister, position it so you can see it through the windshield. Crank. Light? if Yes, check the other terminal on the same side (I am assuming at this point you have a 4 prong resister), crank Light? No? Thats a Problem!!! Then do the same thing on the interior side of the bulkhead connector (trace the dead wire--its green I think) does it light? Yes? clean/repair the bulkhead male/female spade connections. No? damn!!! Might me an ignition switch problem.

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#1077420 - 09/19/11 08:19 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 16324
Loc: Canada
Is it an orange box?
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#1077421 - 09/20/11 03:46 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:

Quote:

Go to yer wirin' diagrams, ya swabbies!
Ya cen see that therrrs a diff circuit be supplying the coil in run 'n start. Iffn you ain't got spark in start, that circuit be caddywumpus...




So Rod, you with Pacnorthcuda that it's the circuit to the coil?
I don't speak Pirate-ese.

Do you agree with my test to check when cranking at the coil?




Yes, if there is no voltage at the coil during cranking it will not start. New engine harness ?

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#1077422 - 09/20/11 06:10 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: JohnRR]
mccannix Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4272
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I had the same problem just Sunday in a 340 Cuda that had added Mopar electronic ignition.
It therefore had the 4 prong ballast resistor.
It had never done this before, but crank and crank and release the key it would start, otherwise not.
Checked some wiring leading to the ballast resistor and noticed one of the top terminal connectors was loose.
Crimped it tighter and 'voila' started and ran like it always did.
Hopefully it's something simple like this was.

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#1077423 - 09/20/11 10:40 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: mccannix]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Thanks for all the test checks.
Looks like rain for a couple of days, but will keep you apprised.

Hopefully it will be like McCannix stated, and a simple tightening of a connection, we'll see.

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#1077424 - 09/21/11 12:01 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
2264PLY Offline
member

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 81
Loc: ohio
Had a similar problem & wound up being an orange ignition box. Tried another one and solved the problem.

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#1077425 - 09/21/11 03:27 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: 2264PLY]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I have already replaced the following:

ignition switch
orange box
starter relay
ballast resistor
coil
cap / rotor
plugs

I will check juice to coil when cranking first.
Then start checking easiest connections ( ie ballast resistor),
then head to the bulkhead connections.

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#1077426 - 09/22/11 12:57 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: MONC]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Battery cables and grounds.
At the neutral safety relay, disconnect the spade terminal so you can test the voltage at the ignition coil without cranking the engine. You will need to have someone hold the key in the start position while you check the voltage. You should have 11+ volts. Reconnect the wire at the relay, and re-check while cranking. If it is 7 volts or less you have too much resistance (voltage drop) in the battery cables.
Also adding additional ground wires from the ECU to the battery, and from the battery to the chassis helps.

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#1077427 - 09/22/11 06:00 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: 451Mopar]
Erics5th Offline
UsedtobeSatellite6

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 3472
Loc: Lubbock, TX
Had a simular problem last year on my 5th Avenue w/318. May sound strange, but it turned out to be the distributor. The bushings where loose, causing the air gap to be almost closed at times, open enough to start others. I run an HEI, so no ballast or ECU. Worth a try.
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#1077428 - 09/22/11 10:13 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? [Re: Erics5th]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
Why not try a jumper lead from the +side of battery to pos side of coil and see if it starts every time. Then work your way backwards to the fault . It could be that the starting motor is drawing way too much power and not enough left to fire the coil. I've seen problems like this many many times.

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#1077429 - 09/24/11 02:04 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: mopar_man]
MONC Offline
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Ok, so this is what I have tested:

With a test light on positive side of coil, it lights up in the RUN and START (cranking) position.

Same result when testing DS ballast resistor ( 2 prong). Lights up in RUN and START position.

With spade disconnected from relay coil reads 7 volts in RUN and 10.3 in START ( cranking) position.

With spade CONNECTED on relay coil reads 7 volts in RUN and 8.5 in cranking. ( not sure if this is because I am losing voltage due to the number of cranking tests I've done today).

At rest battery was reading 12.1 and when running a little over 13 volts.

I also checked the ballast resistor connections, the voltage regulator connections as well as the bulk head connections.
I cleaned and applied dialectric grease to all.

Car is STILL starting in RUN and not START .

Thoughts?

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#1077430 - 09/24/11 03:50 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

Thoughts?


it "runs" so the pickup/coil/ecu (hard components) are good and the ECU is grounded. Check the wiring schematics how it's wired as only the coil positive primary terminal and the "point" of the ECU pentastar connector (4 pin) need fire in start (ign2) as the pickup triggers the ECU which opens the coil pri makeing the secondary fire. Either one of those hard components is not getting fire in "start" or in "start" it is mis wired and something is getting grounded that should not be grounding.
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#1077431 - 09/24/11 04:21 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
so what voltage do you see at the coil when you are actually cranking it over?

Sounds like you either have a large voltage drop, or the battery is basically discharged.


Edited by Strawdawg (09/24/11 04:22 PM)
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#1077432 - 09/24/11 04:52 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

so what voltage do you see at the coil when you are actually cranking it over?

Sounds like you either have a large voltage drop, or the battery is basically discharged.




8.5 volts at coil when cranking.

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#1077433 - 09/24/11 04:54 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Quote:

Thoughts?


it "runs" so the pickup/coil/ecu (hard components) are good and the ECU is grounded. Check the wiring schematics how it's wired as only the coil positive primary terminal and the "point" of the ECU pentastar connector (4 pin) need fire in start (ign2) as the pickup triggers the ECU which opens the coil pri makeing the secondary fire. Either one of those hard components is not getting fire in "start" or in "start" it is mis wired and something is getting grounded that should not be grounding.




I replaced the ECU and the coil , and checked I was getting a good ground at the ECU when I changed it.

But I understand what you are saying, something is not getting fire in the start. I don't think it's miswired because it was working fine before.

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#1077434 - 09/24/11 05:44 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
well, that tells you the coil is getting voltage in the start position, but, I would have thought it should get over ten volts...have you tried charging up the battery? It should have read more than 13 while running if the alternator is doing its job and the battery is healthy...imo, anyway

Unless there is a big drop in the bulkhead connector, but, normally, if the battery reads 12 volts, it is basically discharged.

Also, have you checked the gap in the distributor to make sure it is close to .008". I noticed my car does not like to start on a weak battery if the gap is too large


Edited by Strawdawg (09/24/11 06:02 PM)
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#1077435 - 09/24/11 07:28 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I am trickle charging the battery now.
Will check tomorrow if it doesn't rain.

I will check the gap tomorrow as well, thanks.

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#1077436 - 09/24/11 08:03 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
If the charging circuit is stock the voltage you are reading at idle is probably correct , mopar altenators of that era don't jump to 14ish volts till about 1400 rpm ... i think that is the rpm i have seen posted .

You should have something close to battery voltage at the coil when starting , you have something somewhere that is not maikng a good connection and has some resistance. How are your connectors from the column to the dash harness ?

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#1077437 - 09/24/11 08:14 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
JDMopar Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 7887
Loc: Candler,NC / Myrtle Beach, SC
Back in the day, my buddy had a Dart Sport 340 that did the same thing. Crank it's guts out....release the key and it would start. It ended up being the pickup module in the distributor. Fast forward to around 1989. I had a Dart Swinger with a 318, and it started doing the same thing. I replaced the pickup and star wheel in the distributor and it fixed it. Try replacing those parts, and use a brass feeler guage to set the gap. Good luck.
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#1077438 - 09/24/11 08:27 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Quote:

If the charging circuit is stock the voltage you are reading at idle is probably correct , mopar altenators of that era don't jump to 14ish volts till about 1400 rpm ... i think that is the rpm i have seen posted .

You should have something close to battery voltage at the coil when starting , you have something somewhere that is not maikng a good connection and has some resistance. How are your connectors from the column to the dash harness ?




you can prove the point by putting a jumper from the battery to the coil, and then, hit the key. If it cranks right up, it is a voltage loss problem as suspected. Go ahead and get the battery charged up to eliminate that possibility and check the gap as well, but, like he said, you should be reading within a couple-three tenths of the battery voltage at the coil...the drop will get bigger with load in most cases.
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#1077439 - 09/25/11 02:37 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Ok I tried using a jumper from the positive terminal on battery to the positive on the coil. Then tried starting it.

Same result. Kept cranking in start position and started when it was back in run ( released the key).

I tried switching to a newer battery ( < 1yr old) , same result.

I will have to get some brass feeler gauges ( thought I had some) to check the gap on the electronic pick up.

What's involved in changed the "star wheel" as mentioned above , or do I have to replace the whole distributor?

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#1077440 - 09/25/11 06:08 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

You should have something close to battery voltage at the coil when starting...

I had about 12 volts at coil when using jumper from battery and it still had the same issue.

... How are your connectors from the column to the dash harness ?

I changed the ignition switch last week, and cleaned the connections as well cleaned the connections at the bulk head .






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#1077441 - 09/25/11 10:41 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
4 pin ECU I am assuming? Might sound off the wall but going by the descrip and not being able to visual check it, if gapping the reluctor to .008" w a brass feeler gauge is not it me I'd cut the wire to the coil positive primary and cut the wire to the "point" of the ECU pentastar connector and jump 12V directly to both of them from the batt positive post then crank it from the starter relay. The ECU/coil/pickup are good and the ECU is grounded as it "runs" and the pickup gap may need reducing & that only leaves something in the wiring grounded/open when in ign2 "crank" unless we're still missing something and we very well may be but this is what I'd try
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live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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#1077442 - 09/25/11 10:46 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
yes....this has to be something very simple that we are missing....
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Steve

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#1077443 - 09/26/11 05:41 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? *UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
Quote:

Ok I tried using a jumper from the positive terminal on battery to the positive on the coil. Then tried starting it.

Same result. Kept cranking in start position and started when it was back in run ( released the key).

I tried switching to a newer battery ( < 1yr old) , same result.

I will have to get some brass feeler gauges ( thought I had some) to check the gap on the electronic pick up.

What's involved in changed the "star wheel" as mentioned above , or do I have to replace the whole distributor?




OK, by putting on that jumper wire you by-passed all your harness and ign switch . I thinks its in the ecm and that its not being powered when your in start position .
I know some of the guys can tell you which pin needs to be powered while cranking or just check the ecm pics somebody posted earlier .

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#1077444 - 09/26/11 05:50 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
cdstl Offline
super stock

Registered: 09/03/11
Posts: 1132
Loc: STL
Had the same thing many years ago, had to take it in since I knew nothing about electrical. The mechanic at the shop, a good friend, said it was the electronic ignition "brain box".
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#1077445 - 09/26/11 08:44 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: cdstl]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
I was thinking about this last night. If I recall, you checked for power on the brown wire coming from the ignition switch under the dash when the key is in the start position, and you verified that it had power there, had power under the hood all the way to the coil.

The only thing that looked strange to me was that you said this wire only had 8.5 volts at the coil when cranking and that the battery (at that particular time) was reading 12 volts.

Looking at those numbers, it appeared to me that the battery was discharged as it should be around 12.4 fully charged and the voltage at the coil (when the engine is being cranked) should be close to 11 volts.

Or, if not discharged, there was a big voltage drop between the battery and the coil in the wiring which is not uncommon in these old bulkhead connectors or ignition switches....that is the reason we check the voltage along the path to see if we can isolate a spot where it suddenly changes...like between the brown wire under the dash and on the underhood side.

Finally, if the problem was not the battery, or the wiring, yet the voltage dropped so much, it left me wondering if the starter was on the way out and was pulling a tremendous amount of amps which would cause the battery to be unable to maintain the voltage and let it drop to the 8.5 volts that you read at the coil while cranking.

When you jumped from the battery plus straight to the coil, you eliminated the wiring potential problem. Assuming that the new battery was charged, that should have eliminated the battery being the problem.

Now, the unknown factor (to me) is the relationship of the brown wire to the ignition control module. On a car with a four pin ballast and a five wire control module, the brown wire directly feeds the coil but it does backfeed thru the ballast to the control module thru the green/red wire.

On the newer four wire modules, I have not checked to see which wire has been removed, but, I am wondering if those that are suggesting that the module may be the problem are correct.

At this point, I remember why I initially went to the GM HEI module and eliminated all this mess when I bought my car

If it is not the module, then I would try one more thing to see if the starter is the culprit. Disconnect the brown wire from coil +. Take your other battery, connect its plus to the coil plus and connect the battery negative to your engine for the ground...and try to start the car. If it starts then, it has shown the starter current problem to be the problem. If not, I guess we find another drawing board Cars, you gotta love 'em!
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Steve

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#1077446 - 09/26/11 10:20 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
It does look like, from what I can read, that the older modules, with five wires, do receive their power via the four pin ballast and brown wire while the key is in the Start position...so it is quite probable that either that side of the ballast is bad, or the module is bad.

The four wire modules have the resistor built in the box if I read correctly.

It's very possible we have been going in circles barking up the wrong tree...but, I still want to know why the voltage is so low to to the coil during cranking Maybe the module is shorted internally and taking power to ground?
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Steve

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#1077447 - 09/26/11 10:38 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
a 5 pin ECU which requires a 4 terminal (dual) ballast, 2 pins on the ECU need fire in start. one side of the ballast has a nominal .5 ohms and the other 5 ohms and a high mileage one I checked recently had 1.6 ohms and 6 ohms respectively


Edited by RapidRobert (09/26/11 10:43 AM)
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#1077448 - 09/26/11 11:21 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I appreciate all the suggestions, and feedback.
Some reminders though:

I already changed the ECU and the ballast resistor, along with coil, starter relay and didn't resolve the issue.

The ballast resistor is a TWO prong not FOUR , always has been, even before I had this issue.

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#1077449 - 09/26/11 11:30 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
OK, check the reluctor gap & might disconnect the wires & jump the 2 circuits (coil/ecu). We're getting closer
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#1077450 - 09/26/11 12:20 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
sorry! I should have gone back and read thru the thread...getting too old and was already lazy!

You might try my suggestion of jumping the coil off a separate battery to eliminate excessive starter drain, circuit problems, etc. after checking the gap
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Steve

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#1077451 - 09/26/11 12:57 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
okay, to pause and think about this...

we are assuming that the new module is good which may be a bit risky these days as we see reports of people buying new ones and they not working, but, we would like to assume it is.

Then, the voltage seems low that is going to the coil and to the module (at least it seems low to me).

I am not sure how much voltage the module needs to begin operating but perhaps we need to hot wire the module as well as the coil from a separate battery to make sure that is not the problem?

What do you think, Robert?
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Steve

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#1077452 - 09/26/11 03:39 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
the 4 pin ECU (that ran at one time) has been switched out to another 4 pinner right? I'd disconnect the hot lead to the "point" of the ECU pentastar connector and disconnect ALL leads off of the coil primary terminals then jump 12V to the coil positive primary and to the "point" of the ECU pentastar connector and reconnect the 1 wire (that you just took off) from the coil negative primary to the appropriate ECU pin then crank it with or without the key. It must start! Oh dont forget to check the reluctor gap and a quick visual for any damage (teeth etc)while you have the rotor out adjusting the gap. yes he could try another battery or jump from another one with cables just like a regular jump start and if his batt has a bad cell it could be dropping voltage fast when cranking but I am a k.i.s.s. guy but we are running out of ideas & sometimes off the wall stuff does happen (part of Murphy's law) and yes I agree the voltage is going to go way up when the starter is disengaged.


Edited by RapidRobert (09/26/11 04:05 PM)
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#1077453 - 09/26/11 04:51 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
sounds like a plan to me better to not change too many things at a time. If it does not start this way, then a separate battery could be used to prove/disprove the problem with the voltage, I think.


Edited by Strawdawg (09/26/11 05:02 PM)

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#1077454 - 09/26/11 05:17 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
The voltage drop when cranking is likely resistance in the battery cables and/or connections (cable to block, cable to battery posts, ect.)
Replacement battery cables are pretty inexpensive too.
You already proved you get good voltage to the coil under normal (non-cranking) draw (Switch, bulkhead connections, fuseable link are OK.)
A 14 awg wire from the block to the ECU case will help the ECU detect the signal from the magnetic pickup in the distrubitor.

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#1077455 - 09/27/11 02:15 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
racealittle Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1263
Loc: Southwestern Ontario Canada
My 1974 Challenger had all these issues when I bought it. It was set up to start with a button.

I spent hours testing all the wires, voltages, values. I made my own harness and switched to an aftermarket ignition.

I still had the same results. I tore the ignition switch and related switches out of the coloum for individual tests.

Still not resolved, but that is because the car is in the paint shop at this time.

If the problem doesn't want to be fixed, a button will go back in
_________________________
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#1077456 - 09/27/11 08:58 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: racealittle]
kilroy Offline
killjoy

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 858
Loc: Iowa State fan
Didnt feel like reading all the post so sorry if its a repeat....

When my car did this it was due to (a rewire screw up) the distributor pick up wires being switched. I had put a new end on the wire harness side and didnt pay close enough attention. Would not start unless you released the key and got lucky.
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#1077457 - 09/28/11 09:04 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: kilroy]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Borrowed some brass feeler gauges from a buddy last night.
Didn't have time to check gap.
Will do so today if time allows.

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#1077458 - 09/28/11 09:06 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

the 4 pin ECU (that ran at one time) has been switched out to another 4 pinner right? I'd disconnect the hot lead to the "point" of the ECU pentastar connector and disconnect ALL leads off of the coil primary terminals then jump 12V to the coil positive primary and to the "point" of the ECU pentastar connector and reconnect the 1 wire (that you just took off) from the coil negative primary to the appropriate ECU pin then crank it with or without the key. It must start! Oh dont forget to check the reluctor gap and a quick visual for any damage (teeth etc)while you have the rotor out adjusting the gap. yes he could try another battery or jump from another one with cables just like a regular jump start and if his batt has a bad cell it could be dropping voltage fast when cranking but I am a k.i.s.s. guy but we are running out of ideas & sometimes off the wall stuff does happen (part of Murphy's law) and yes I agree the voltage is going to go way up when the starter is disengaged.




These tests are getting complicated ( for me anyway), let's hope it's the gap.

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#1077459 - 09/28/11 09:58 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
I still think ECU is not being powered while key is in start mode .

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#1077460 - 09/28/11 11:03 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

These tests are getting complicated ( for me anyway), let's hope it's the gap.


Yes and I am getting carpal tunnel. Lets get this baby up & running
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live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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#1077461 - 09/28/11 01:18 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
WheelsUp73 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 369
Loc: California, USA!!!
Easy fix ...We had the same problem so I went to an MSD box and coil with the stock distrubitor and have not had any problems since.

http://youtu.be/t0OVIsU01mg


Attachments
6846474-Lisa5-30-11.JPG (43 downloads)

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http://youtu.be/fAP_2rxz_GA

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#1077462 - 09/28/11 06:44 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: WheelsUp73]
Flite_727 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1448
Loc: right between milan dragway & ...
it's been many years, but i'm another victim of having this same problem being caused by a bad pickup coil. mine would only act up when hot. you can check the resistance of the pickup with a digital multimeter(i don't remember offhand what the range/specs. are, but the info is out there) & mine would be in spec. when cold, but out of spec. when hot. a couple of times it started with a huge backfire from all the fuel in the exhaust from cranking for so long!
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#1077463 - 09/28/11 06:50 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: mopar_man]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 19625
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Quote:

I still think ECU is not being powered while key is in start mode .




That's what I think too...

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#1077464 - 09/29/11 01:11 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
I was thinking about this today on a way to test the grounding. If I recall, the ECU will ground the coil "-" terminal till it sees a pules from the distrubitor pickup?
I think if you unplug the dist pickup, the ECU should keep the coil "-" grounded while cranking the engine.
So try this test:
#1 - unplug dist pickup wire.
#2 - Connect a good voltmeter (positive/red meter wire) to the ignition coil "-". Connect the meter negative/black wire directly to the battery "-" terminal.
#3 - jumper a wire from the battery "+" terminal to the ignition coil "+" terminal.

Test: The voltmeter should read nearly zero volts. The only voltage drop should be the ECU transistor junction voltage (maybe less than 1 volt?)
Now crank the starter to put a high current load on the wiring. Because the dist is unplugged, the ECU should remain grounding the ignition coil "-" terminal. Ideally, the voltmeter reading should be the same as before. If the reading goes up, it is because of resistance in the ground path(s).

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#1077465 - 09/29/11 06:27 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
Just thinking , have you by any chance got an aftermarket tach tied into the system? if you have ....chop chop

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#1077466 - 09/29/11 08:54 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
dan9 Offline
super stock

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1010
Loc: pa.
I would drop the switch out of the dash and check the bigger wire , i think it is brown. I would use a test on it while you are cranking. It may be a bad terminal connection.

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#1077467 - 10/02/11 12:27 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dan9]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I checked the reluctor gap and it did see a little more than .008 , so I regapped.
But it didn't make a difference, same issue occurs.

Regarding tests with the ECU, it's more difficult because it is mounted underneath the dash behind the glovebox, and a PITA to get to.
I'll try the battery test first and if that makes a difference.

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#1077468 - 10/02/11 01:18 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
JDMopar Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 7887
Loc: Candler,NC / Myrtle Beach, SC
To answer your ? about the star wheel, you can pry it up and off the shaft with 2 flat screwdrivers. Be careful not to drop the roll pin down into the distributor, or you'll have to remove the distributor to shake it out. Also,if it hasn't been suggested already...make sure the ECU has a good ground. They don't work well if they don't have a good ground to the body of the car.
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#1077469 - 10/02/11 01:26 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dan9]
gdonovan Offline
master

Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 7186
Loc: Oakdale CT
Quote:

I would drop the switch out of the dash and check the bigger wire , i think it is brown. I would use a test on it while you are cranking. It may be a bad terminal connection.




We had this problem with a 78 power wagon, the ignition switch would drop out enough juice so the ignition box would not fire during cranking.

Let go of the key and it would just catch as the switch contacts went to the run position.

Replacing the switch cured the problem.

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#1077470 - 10/02/11 03:02 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: gdonovan]
65dragnet Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 716
Loc: Indiana
this is an age old problem change the ballast resistor
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#1077471 - 10/02/11 03:05 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: gdonovan]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Quote:

I would drop the switch out of the dash and check the bigger wire , i think it is brown. I would use a test on it while you are cranking. It may be a bad terminal connection.




We had this problem with a 78 power wagon, the ignition switch would drop out enough juice so the ignition box would not fire during cranking.

Let go of the key and it would just catch as the switch contacts went to the run position.

Replacing the switch cured the problem.




I already replaced the ignition switch.

I also just replaced the battery , as the existing one was at least 5 years old anyway .

Didn't make a difference, and now it's even harder to start...

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#1077472 - 10/02/11 03:07 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 65dragnet]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
Its not an old age problem , older cars never had 4 prong ballast resistors. when the ballast resistors gave out on older cars the car would run on start and die when the key was released to the run position .
he already stated that he has a 2 prong ballast resistor .

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#1077473 - 10/02/11 03:16 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: mopar_man]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
monc, several posts ago i asked you to jump the wiring harness (pos on battery to pos on coil )
Did it start then when you turned the key to start position ?
If it didn't , leave the key in the run position and try cranking it at the starting motor (big terminal on starter jumped to small terminal )

if it starts then , I still say the ecm is not powered when the key is in start position .

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#1077474 - 10/02/11 03:31 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: mopar_man]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

monc, several posts ago i asked you to jump the wiring harness (pos on battery to pos on coil )
Did it start then when you turned the key to start position ?

NO it did not.

If it didn't , leave the key in the run position and try cranking it at the starting motor (big terminal on starter jumped to small terminal )

Ok I will try that now.

if it starts then , I still say the ecm is not powered when the key is in start position .



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#1077475 - 10/02/11 03:38 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
It did not start with key in run position and jumped at starter relay
.

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#1077476 - 10/02/11 03:49 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
ok , if it didn't start when you jumped (pos bat to pos coil)and then jumped at relay with the key in run position but still starts when you release the key to run position your starter is drawing too much current and it looks like there is not enough current left over to power up ECM .

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#1077477 - 10/02/11 03:55 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
gdonovan Offline
master

Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 7186
Loc: Oakdale CT
Quote:



I already replaced the ignition switch.






Question- With the key in the run position, how does the car start when you jump the starter relay?

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#1077478 - 10/02/11 04:00 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
roe Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/05
Posts: 3336
Loc: Central TX
Quote:

It did not start with key in run position and jumped at starter relay
.




Just to make sure you guys aren't getting crossed up. Is jumping at the starter relay bypassing the same wiring as if you jumped it on the actual starter?

You state that it didn't start when jumped at starter relay, but he asked you to jump at the starter.
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#1077479 - 10/02/11 04:11 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: roe]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Ok I know this is going to be confusing and I know I said it didn't start just now when I had key in the run position and jumped it at the start relay, BUT ...

I figured the car was cold and the battery weak from cranking so, I jumped the battery, started the car as I had done before ( when I released the key from the start position).

Then, I let the car idle for about 15 minutes to let the battery charge and the car warm up.

THEN I tried the test again.
Put the key in the RUN position , then jumped it from the relay , and it STARTED .

So what does this mean? It starts in RUN position now with the key, what does it matter that I started the car in the RUN position by jumping it at the relay?

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#1077480 - 10/02/11 04:17 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
gdonovan Offline
master

Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 7186
Loc: Oakdale CT
Quote:


Put the key in the RUN position , then jumped it from the relay , and it STARTED .

So what does this mean? It starts in RUN position now with the key, what does it matter that I started the car in the RUN position by jumping it at the relay?




It means the ECU or coil is not getting enough voltage while the key is in the crank position. Could be a bad ignition switch or poor connection at the bulkhead connector.

You need to check both the coil+ terminal and the voltage feed to the ECU during cranking to see what the drop is. That is how I found out our power wagon had a bad ignition switch as the ECU voltage would drop below 9 volts during cranking.

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#1077481 - 10/02/11 04:28 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: gdonovan]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I've done that already ( see previous posts of voltages found), and replaced the ignition switch.

Guess I'll go back to the bulkhead connector...again....

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#1077482 - 10/02/11 07:45 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland

So what does this mean? It starts in RUN position now with the key, what does it matter that I started the car in the RUN position by jumping it at the relay?

It means that everything is fine with the wiring until your key goes to the start position.

So, you got new ignition switch so we'll assume its working ok but somewhere from the ignition switch on out through the wiring harness there is an open circuit thats not powering up the coil , or the ecm and it could be the bulkhead connector.
if its running good and starting fine in run position, it should be just a matter of elimination to find your problem.
wish i was closer , prolly fine the trouble pretty quick .

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#1077483 - 10/02/11 10:03 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
You mentioned the ECU is mounted under the dash?
Could it be getting power from the ACC side of the fuseblock, and not from the run side of the ballast resistor as is the normal wiring configuration?

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#1077484 - 10/02/11 10:39 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Quote:

You mentioned the ECU is mounted under the dash?
Could it be getting power from the ACC side of the fuseblock, and not from the run side of the ballast resistor as is the normal wiring configuration?




Try this test to verify if the ECU is wired to the ACC power.

#1 - disconnect the starter relay spade connector so the engine/starter will not spin when putting the key in the "start" position.
#2 - put key in the ACC position.
#3 - Jumper a wire from the battery positive to the ignition coil "+" terminal.
#4 - use a starter switch or wire from the starter relay spade connection to the positive post of the relay to start the car.

I think the car will now start?

With the engine running, and the starter wire still disconnected from the starter relay so the starter will not engage, turn the key to the "start" position and hold it there. If the engine dies, you just verified the ECU is on the ACC circuit, not the RUN circuit.

When the key is in the "run/on" position you are powering the Accessory circuit (radio, ect), and the engine compartment run circuit (Normally power to the ECU, alt field, voltage regulator, ballast resistor and carb choke heater if equiped.)

Because the ECU was moved to a non-stock location, it may be wired to the wrong power circuit.

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#1077485 - 10/03/11 08:12 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Thanks Mopar Man, I wish you were closer as well..I hate electrical problems.

451Mopar , I have had the same configuration the entire time ( ECU mounted under dash), so it doesn't make sense to me that the car which previously started in the START position, is now due to the configuration, but I appreciate your suggestion.

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#1077486 - 10/03/11 09:51 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
That makes me think it is still grounding issues or a bad/marginal ballast resistor.

Putting a jumper wire from the battery positive to the ignition coil "+" terminal is the same as having the ignition key in the start position. This bypasses all the dash wiring. You could totally disconnect the bulkhead connector and the engine should start.
The issue with the ballast resistor is if it may be partly burnt and has higher resistance than normal. In the start position, power starting at the coil, power must run back through the ballast resistor to supply power to the ECU, alternator, and voltage regulator.
With a jumper wire across the ballast resistor, and the jumper from battery to ignition coil everything should be getting full power.
Now everything is eliminated from the circuit equation except the grounding paths. The ECU grounds itself through the case to the body (if it has a good connection), and the starter grounds itself through the engine block.
I don't know if you are using a battery ground wire that has a lead to ground the body, or ground wires from the engine block to the body?

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#1077487 - 10/03/11 10:41 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I've replaced the ballast resistor along with every othe component I could think of.

When replacing the ECU I checked with my meter that I had ground from the unit to the body of the car.

I have additional grouding straps from the neg. battery terminal to the body of the car, and have checked them as well.

I did try putting a jumper from the battery pos. to the coil pos. and it did not resolve the issue.
I have not tried jumping the ballast resistor yet, I could try that, along with bypassing the harness as you suggested. Couldn't hurt.

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#1077488 - 10/03/11 01:45 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:

I've done that already ( see previous posts of voltages found), and replaced the ignition switch.

Guess I'll go back to the bulkhead connector...again....




Just because you replaced the ignition switch does not mean it is not the problem. Why did you replace the switch to begin with?

You have a 2 prong ballast , if it was bad the car wouldn't run when the key is released , you have the opposite problem.

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#1077489 - 10/03/11 03:13 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR]
stumpy Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 29806
Loc: Grand Prairie,Texas
Did you replace the 5 pin ECU with a 5 pin or a 4 pin?

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#1077490 - 10/03/11 07:35 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR]
roe Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/05
Posts: 3336
Loc: Central TX
Quote:

Quote:

I've done that already ( see previous posts of voltages found), and replaced the ignition switch.

Guess I'll go back to the bulkhead connector...again....




Just because you replaced the ignition switch does not mean it is not the problem. Why did you replace the switch to begin with?

You have a 2 prong ballast , if it was bad the car wouldn't run when the key is released , you have the opposite problem.




could be bad right out the box. Had it happen to me with either a coil or dizzy. I replaced both, car was acting funny still and symptoms pointed to one of the two. So I exchanged both and replaced again and car ran like a top. So one of those was bad right out the box, just dont know which one since I replaced them at the same time.
_________________________

1971 Plymouth Satellite
408/904 8 3/4 3.23 SG

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#1077491 - 10/05/11 12:24 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Quote:

I've done that already ( see previous posts of voltages found), and replaced the ignition switch.

Guess I'll go back to the bulkhead connector...again....




Just because you replaced the ignition switch does not mean it is not the problem. Why did you replace the switch to begin with?





I replaced the switch because I thought it might be the problem. The same reason I replaced the coil, the ballast resistor, the ECU, the starter relay, cap and rotor, plugs, and cleaned the bulkhead connections and checked the grounds.

Obviously I've missed something.

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#1077492 - 10/05/11 12:25 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: stumpy]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Did you replace the 5 pin ECU with a 5 pin or a 4 pin?




Replaced with the same, almost positive it was a 4 pin.

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#1077493 - 10/05/11 12:35 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
stumpy Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 29806
Loc: Grand Prairie,Texas
I have had problems replacing a 5 pin with a 4 pin. It caused the problem you are having.

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#1077494 - 10/05/11 04:28 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: stumpy]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
I didn't go back and read everything but I see you changed the switch because this was happening , what did you change or modify before this started or did it all of a sudden happen ?

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#1077495 - 10/07/11 03:13 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

I didn't go back and read everything but I see you changed the switch because this was happening , what did you change or modify before this started or did it all of a sudden happen ?




I did not change or modify anything before this was happening.
I just hadn't started the car in a few months.

When I went to start it after a few months, it was having this problem, but I got it started.
When I went to drive it, I warmed it about for about 15 minutes, then when I was driving it for a about a mile, the car stalled.
Couldn't get it restarted ( meaning when I turned the key it didn't even crank).

So I had it towed back to the house and have been working on it ever since...

So is the fact that it stalled AND having the starting issue , related??
I suspect it is, but not sure what it points to, hence me replacing everything I could think of, including the ignition switch.

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#1077496 - 10/07/11 03:45 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Check the alternator field brushs and holders, you may be getting a short circuit in the primary wiring.
Disconnect the alternator field wires and the Voltage regulator and see if the car starts. If it will now start, when it did not before, I would suspect some short in the wiring as mentioned above.

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#1077497 - 10/07/11 05:46 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Thanks I'll check that out tomorrow.

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#1077498 - 10/07/11 07:02 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
srt Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 9014
Loc: Fragged State of Skuldruggery
How about making a couple jumpers to route around the harness wiring. With all the new components you have installed I believe the problem may be a partialy broken wire in the leg that provides juice during cranking.
Also have you checked the nss? Jump that and try to start.

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#1077499 - 10/08/11 08:03 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: srt]
lokalik Offline
super stock

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 797
Loc: arizona, usa
check the connector where your ingition wires (from ingition switch) connect, this should be along the steering colum. brothers 70 chaly would the same as you. squeezed the connector together real hard and it would start.

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#1077500 - 10/08/11 01:13 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Check the alternator field brushs and holders, you may be getting a short circuit in the primary wiring.
Disconnect the alternator field wires and the Voltage regulator and see if the car starts. If it will now start, when it did not before, I would suspect some short in the wiring as mentioned above.




Jus tried this, and it did not start, but thanks for the suggestion.

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#1077501 - 10/08/11 01:14 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: srt]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

How about making a couple jumpers to route around the harness wiring. With all the new components you have installed I believe the problem may be a partialy broken wire in the leg that provides juice during cranking.
Also have you checked the nss? Jump that and try to start.




I did a lot of jumper testing previously, no change.

What is NSS?

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#1077502 - 10/08/11 01:46 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Golden-Arm Offline


Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 10544
Loc: omotive Engineer.
Neutral Start Switch
_________________________
"When Tyranny Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty"


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#1077503 - 10/08/11 04:47 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Golden-Arm]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
What is the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp...not the battery post, but the clamp, when you crank the car over? And, then on the actual post, not the clamp...when cranking?
_________________________
Steve

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#1077504 - 10/08/11 07:33 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Oh, yeah...use the battery negative post for your ground probe. If you see no large voltage drop while cranking, then try it again with the ground probe on a good ground point on the engine, and then, on the car body.
_________________________
Steve

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#1077505 - 10/09/11 12:15 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
dustyswinger Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 522
Loc: MN
I looked at the wiring diagram links for a 70 challenger and being they didn't have electronic ignition in 70 I assume you wired it in. Where did you wire it in and how did you do it? Here is a link to how to wire it http://www.allpar.com/fix/electronic-ignition.html I would think that you dont have power to the ignition box in start mode from the ignition switch or added wiring.I would run a wire from the battery positive to the #1 pin on the module (if you look at the link posted) and then crank normally with the key and see if the car starts now.

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#1077506 - 10/09/11 12:57 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dustyswinger]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
He has already done that....
_________________________
Steve

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#1077507 - 10/09/11 01:07 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
dustyswinger Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 522
Loc: MN
I read where he powered up the coil positive but not the ign box. If im wrong sorry. Just trying to help.

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#1077508 - 10/09/11 03:01 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dustyswinger]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Quote:

I read where he powered up the coil positive but not the ign box. If im wrong sorry. Just trying to help.




Jumping power to the coil positive "should" provide power the the ignition ECU box in the same manner as having the key in the start position. Which means the power has to flow (back) through the ballast resistor to power the box. Because the ballast resistor should be 1-ohm or less this should not be a problem unless there is excessive current draw on the same "run" circuit which also the the power ti the alternator field and voltage regulator (on some models also the electric choke?)
I guess you could isolate that circuit be disconnecting the alternator field terminal, the voltage regulator and the ECU, then with the ignition switch in the "off" position, jumper power to the coil positive again and verify no current is flowing through the ballast resistor. You could wire an ampmeter in series with the ballast resistor, or measure the voltage drop across the ballast resistor and see how re-attaching the various loads previously disconnected draws power. It would be a good way the check out the wiring in that circuit. Also, you can check that power is getting the the ECU connector. In fact, you should see power on two of the ECU terminals, the normal power terminal and the wire connected to the coil negative terminal. The other two terminals are the magnetic pickup connections to the distrubitor.
Re-connecting the ECU connector should result in the ECU grounding the coil negative terminal if the ECU box is grounded.
That is all there is the ignition and charging circuitry. As I mentioned before this should work even if the bulkhead connector or ignition switch are removed... They are just supplying the power that the jumper wire is now doing.
The only other required circuit is the starter circuit, to spin the engine. The major difference here is when cranking the engine it places a large current load through the battery and battery cables and any resistance in these paths or a weak battery will result in voltage drops seen in all the circuits.
A small resistance of even 0.5-ohm with 50 amps through it is a 2.5volt voltage drop, and a 5-volt voltage drop at 100 amps.

When the engine wants to start only after releasing the key from the start position to the run position, it is because the high current starter load is removed and with less current draw, the voltage drops are reduced resulting in more voltage, and to the ECU. Also because the starter and the ECU are really grounded in two totally different areas (starter to engine block, and ECU to body) there is also a chance of a ground loop voltage problem that can interfere with the ECU sensing the magnetic pickup signal from the distrubitor.

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#1077509 - 10/09/11 07:55 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
roe Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/05
Posts: 3336
Loc: Central TX
If you guys are worried about starter draw because of resistance, he should check the condition of his starter cables. I went to clean a small amount of tarnish/corrosion from the connection at my starter cable to battery, and split the tip of my insulation to take a peek, man it was bad. I ended up completely stripping the insulation off and cleaning the length of the wire. You would not believe how bad of shape that wire was in. I cleaned it, put some tarnish protector on it and new insulation, and it was much better starting, especially when hot.

roe
_________________________

1971 Plymouth Satellite
408/904 8 3/4 3.23 SG

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#1077510 - 10/09/11 09:06 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
451mopar is where we were a week or so ago. This should be a simple thing to find.

We keep worrying about the ignition switch, the bulkhead connector, etc., but that was eliminated by the jumpers from the battery if they were connected as we asked.

I asked him a few posts up to take some voltages off the battery while cranking it to try to demonstrate that problem was in that area even tho we should have shown that with the jumper tests.

I was also trying to determine if the problem was on the plus side, or the negative side, of the battery. A bad ground connection will do the same as a a bad positive connection.

Long ago, I had asked to power the ignition box/coil off a separate battery to show it would then start if nothing was pulling the ignition voltage down. This was not done to my knowledge, but, really, the first thing to find out what is causing the big drop.

I had originally guessed a bad battery, a bad connection, or a starter that was pulling way too much current. Given the size of the voltage drop and the fact that the starter is spinning, I would probably guess one of the latter two, but, a few tests should find the answer.

Sometimes these things are really confusing and it takes a logical approach to try to zero in on the actual problem-old cars where every thing should be suspect do not make it easier.:)
_________________________
Steve

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#1077511 - 10/09/11 09:38 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
This is what Iv'e been saying also. and 451has been saying the same things .
this engine should have been starting long ago with the key in the start position with what we've been asking for the OP to do . Finding the problem is another story but the engine should be running!!! I'm beginning to wonder .

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#1077512 - 10/09/11 10:55 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

What is the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp...not the battery post, but the clamp, when you crank the car over? And, then on the actual post, not the clamp...when cranking?




I measured the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp while cranking as requested, it was approximately 10.9 volts.

I cannot measure it at the post while cranking because I am by myself and cannot figure out a way to rig something to just touch the post and nothing else without holding it.

I also measured it at the positive clamp at rest and it was about 12.8 volts.

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#1077513 - 10/09/11 10:59 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dustyswinger]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

I looked at the wiring diagram links for a 70 challenger and being they didn't have electronic ignition in 70 I assume you wired it in. Where did you wire it in and how did you do it? Here is a link to how to wire it http://www.allpar.com/fix/electronic-ignition.html I would think that you dont have power to the ignition box in start mode from the ignition switch or added wiring.I would run a wire from the battery positive to the #1 pin on the module (if you look at the link posted) and then crank normally with the key and see if the car starts now.




I did not install the electronic ignition on this car, it was installed when I bought it, and ran fine for the past few years.
This has only been a recent issue.

The ECU is mounted behind the glovebox and difficult to access.
I did manage to replace it already and checked for sufficient ground.
I did not do any pin tests on the ECU.

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#1077514 - 10/09/11 11:00 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dustyswinger]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

I read where he powered up the coil positive but not the ign box. If im wrong sorry. Just trying to help.




No worries, I appreciate the assistance.

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#1077515 - 10/09/11 11:03 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Golden-Arm]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Neutral Start Switch




Where is the neutral starter switch?

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#1077516 - 10/09/11 11:08 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

451mopar is where we were a week or so ago. This should be a simple thing to find.

We keep worrying about the ignition switch, the bulkhead connector, etc., but that was eliminated by the jumpers from the battery if they were connected as we asked.

I asked him a few posts up to take some voltages off the battery while cranking it to try to demonstrate that problem was in that area even tho we should have shown that with the jumper tests.

I was also trying to determine if the problem was on the plus side, or the negative side, of the battery. A bad ground connection will do the same as a a bad positive connection.

Long ago, I had asked to power the ignition box/coil off a separate battery to show it would then start if nothing was pulling the ignition voltage down. This was not done to my knowledge, but, really, the first thing to find out what is causing the big drop.

I had originally guessed a bad battery, a bad connection, or a starter that was pulling way too much current. Given the size of the voltage drop and the fact that the starter is spinning, I would probably guess one of the latter two, but, a few tests should find the answer.

Sometimes these things are really confusing and it takes a logical approach to try to zero in on the actual problem-old cars where every thing should be suspect do not make it easier.:)




I've been testing the best I could, it has been difficult, frustrating and confusing, and sometimes all at the same time.
Like NOW.

At this point I've done so many changes and tests, with no change in the issue, I don't know what is wrong

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#1077517 - 10/09/11 11:30 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Monc, is there anyone on here who who lives close to give you a hand? I know it is a pain to trouble shoot this problem. I'm an electrical engineer and it took me quite some time to figure out the problem when it happened on my '68 dodge truck. On my truck, it would start when cold, but when warn it did the only starts after releasing the key thing. The difference is heat increases the resistance of the battery cables so I was loosing more voltage through the cables with the warmed up engine.
One trick I tried, that helped a little (before I found out I had a bad ground battery cable) was to install a diode across the ballast resistor, to reduce the voltage drop at the ballast resistor (going back to the ECU) when cranking the engine.

In your case, have you tried a known good battery, the battery voltages seem a bit low?

On the otherhand this is another reason I dislike the stock style electronic ignition setup (including the Mopar conversion kit, which is just a 4-pin version of the stock electronic ignition.)
All but one of my cars has either a CD ignition or an all-in-one distrubitor/ignition.

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#1077518 - 10/09/11 11:33 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

Monc, is there anyone on here who who lives close to give you a hand?


I'm about ready to hitchhike over there
_________________________
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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#1077519 - 10/09/11 11:47 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Monc, is there anyone on here who who lives close to give you a hand? I know it is a pain to trouble shoot this problem. I'm an electrical engineer and it took me quite some time to figure out the problem when it happened on my '68 dodge truck. On my truck, it would start when cold, but when warn it did the only starts after releasing the key thing. The difference is heat increases the resistance of the battery cables so I was loosing more voltage through the cables with the warmed up engine.
One trick I tried, that helped a little (before I found out I had a bad ground battery cable) was to install a diode across the ballast resistor, to reduce the voltage drop at the ballast resistor (going back to the ECU) when cranking the engine.

In your case, have you tried a known good battery, the battery voltages seem a bit low?





I jumped the ballast resistor ( I think this accomplishes the same thing, no? and it did not change the issue) .

I switched batteries, and that didn't make a difference, but then the original was at least 5 years old, so I decided to buy a new one.

No change.

I did have a friend come by and help for a while and after he read the replies ,he is at a loss as well.

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#1077520 - 10/09/11 11:49 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Quote:

Monc, is there anyone on here who who lives close to give you a hand?


I'm about ready to hitchhike over there




Thanks, needed the laugh.

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#1077521 - 10/09/11 11:51 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
I wasn't laughing
_________________________
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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#1077522 - 10/09/11 12:03 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I laughed on the inside, on the outside I'm about ready to cry, but since I'm a man I'll just get angry and curse and throw things...


So what is an acceptable voltage drop?

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#1077523 - 10/09/11 12:14 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

I laughed on the inside, on the outside I'm about ready to cry, but since I'm a man I'll just get angry and curse and throw things...


So what is an acceptable voltage drop?


(1) that's the story of my life (2) maybe a tenth (.1v) per connection (when cranking)
_________________________
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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#1077524 - 10/09/11 12:24 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Quote:

Quote:

What is the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp...not the battery post, but the clamp, when you crank the car over? And, then on the actual post, not the clamp...when cranking?




I measured the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp while cranking as requested, it was approximately 10.9 volts.

I cannot measure it at the post while cranking because I am by myself and cannot figure out a way to rig something to just touch the post and nothing else without holding it.

I also measured it at the positive clamp at rest and it was about 12.8 volts.




I have the same problem all the time Need one or two more hands...

Okay, that is not nearly as much drop as we see at the coil or module as I recall.

So let's see what we have on the ground side.

Can you connect the probe to a good engine ground while keeping the positive probe on the Positive clamp and check the voltage while cranking?

Then do the same but put the ground probe on a body ground (not the same place as the ground cable is connected)
_________________________
Steve

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#1077525 - 10/09/11 12:36 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Can you give me examples of a good engine ground?

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#1077526 - 10/09/11 01:31 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Any place like an intake bolt or anything you get a good connection to on the engine...if you can connect the positive probe to the cable clamp and scratch a clean spot on an engine bolt with the ground probe, then hold the probe to that spot while you crank the engine with a screw driver on the starter relay....

Some day, I may yet buy a remote starter button
_________________________
Steve

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#1077527 - 10/09/11 01:37 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Okay, that is not nearly as much drop as we see at the coil or module as I recall.

So let's see what we have on the ground side.

Can you connect the probe to a good engine ground while keeping the positive probe on the Positive clamp and check the voltage while cranking?

Then do the same but put the ground probe on a body ground (not the same place as the ground cable is connected)




Ok results were the same for each test:

Voltage while cranking 10.7

What does that mean?

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#1077528 - 10/09/11 01:51 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Depending what the battery reads when not cranking, it means there is a bit over 1 volt drop when cranking which I don't believe is excessive.

If 10.7 volts is getting to the ignition module and the coil, the car should start.

Now, if we jumpered from the battery to the coil and module a week ago, or whenever it was, then there is no reason for the car not to start when the jumper is there as that would take the drop that we see thru the normal wiring out of play.

It does mean, that if we are seeing 8+ volts on the key side of the ballast, there is a big drop in the circuit but that does not account for it not starting with the jumper in place as that removes the normal circuit.

Can you verify that you did, indeed, jump to both the coil and the module from the battery at the same time?
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Steve

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#1077529 - 10/09/11 01:57 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Can you verify that you did, indeed, jump to both the coil and the module from the battery at the same time?




I did not jump anything to the module as it is mounted in a very hard to work with place.

I only replaced the module. Then reinstalled everything I had to do to get to it.

The other reason I didn't do any module tests, is how do I know which pin does what to properly do the test??

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#1077530 - 10/09/11 02:06 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
uh oh! I apologize to the guy I told we had already done that....I am wrong!

Okay, I have to go see how to install an electronic ignition with a two prong ignition to find out how to power the module.

My current guess is too little voltage during cranking to the module...once again



Edited by Strawdawg (10/09/11 02:09 PM)
_________________________
Steve

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#1077531 - 10/09/11 02:12 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
No worries, I appreciate you hangin' in there with me , as well as the rest you guys.

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#1077532 - 10/09/11 02:16 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Okay, looks like the light blue wire with an yellow tracer is the power wire to the module.

It should connect to one end of the ballast resistor...if this is what you see on yours, then connect a jumper from the battery to this end of the ballast and see if the car will start when you go to Start.

If it does, then we can start looking for the problem spot..if not, we buy Robert a bus ticket to your house
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Steve

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#1077533 - 10/09/11 02:38 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
and, if that did not work, leave that jumper in place and run another one from the battery directly to the coil +
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Steve

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#1077534 - 10/09/11 02:41 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
and one last thought...did we make sure the module box is well grounded?
_________________________
Steve

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#1077535 - 10/09/11 02:44 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I cannot see any of the wires to the ECU without taking out the glovebox again.

The wires on the ballast resistor are as follows:

Passenger side : Dark Green (on left side when looking at firewall)
Driver's side Brown and Black together .


So do you want me to run a continuity test between the light blue wire with yellow tracer ( assuming it is there) to both of the wires to the ballast resistor to see which one is going to the ECU?

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#1077536 - 10/09/11 02:45 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

and one last thought...did we make sure the module box is well grounded?




I put my probe to the body of the ECU ( through the paint) and then to the body of the car and had continuity, I would think that would be good ground, no?

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#1077537 - 10/09/11 02:49 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
page down this pdf and see if your car is wired like the diagram shown for converting from points to electronic

www.dippy.org/upgrade/ignition.pdf

It shows the dark green wire not being used if the module is a five wire version...I need to go look for the four wire module...I have forgotten which one you have
_________________________
Steve

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#1077538 - 10/09/11 02:54 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I have the 4 pin version.

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#1077539 - 10/09/11 03:06 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
okay...sorry for the confusion...sounds like the module box should be grounded well enuf.

Can you run a jumper from the battery plus to the coil + and at the same time, jump across the ballast resistor from one end to the other with a jumper? Then try starting it.

the second diagram on the page shows wring for a four terminal module http://www.allpar.com/fix/electronic-ignition.html
_________________________
Steve

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#1077540 - 10/09/11 03:09 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Now I know why I cut all the rotten wiring out from under the hood on my car and installed an HEI module powered thru a relay!
_________________________
Steve

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#1077541 - 10/09/11 03:41 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
If it does not, you might look at the module and see if the wire coming from number one on the diagrams is the one connected to the ballast. I know it ran before, but, I am curious...seems the power has to go to 1 on the module.
_________________________
Steve

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#1077542 - 10/09/11 03:43 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Can you run a jumper from the battery plus to the coil + and at the same time, jump across the ballast resistor from one end to the other with a jumper? Then try starting it.






Ok jumped across ballast resistor ( elminating it, assuming that is what you were asking me to do), and at the same time used a jumper wire from the battery plus to the positive side of the coil.

Result was start issue was the same, started in RUN and not in START,
but when I went to turn the car off and took the key out the car kept running.

I took the jumper of the positive battery terminal and the car stopped.
Does this mean anything?

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#1077543 - 10/09/11 03:57 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
no, that would be expected because we have bypassed the ignition switch by going straight to coil from the battery....no way to turn it off other than by disconnecting the wire from the battery.

Okay, it makes no sense as we should have eliminated most of the voltage drop.

Yet, as soon as you back off the key, it fires off.

Okay, lets go back to my suggestion of a week, or so, ago. If you have another battery that is charged up, pull it out and connect a wire from its + to the coil plus and leave the jumper across the ballast for this test as well.

Connect a wire from the battery - post to a ground on the car under the hood...It should work to the car battery ground terminal, or to sheetmetal ground off the car battery ground.

If we can ever get the damn thing to start when cranking, then we will have made some progress even if we don't know why
_________________________
Steve

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#1077544 - 10/09/11 04:06 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
this is a dumb question, but, let me ask it even tho I think it was checked early on.

The brown wire on one end of the ballast...what voltage does it read when the key is in the cranking position? It does read 8-9v when cranking, right?
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Steve

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#1077545 - 10/09/11 04:14 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

this is a dumb question, but, let me ask it even tho I think it was checked early on.

The brown wire on one end of the ballast...what voltage does it read when the key is in the cranking position? It does read 8-9v when cranking, right?




Do I measure this with everything hooked back up the way it should or does it matter?

I'm also asking because it's a PITA to measure voltage when alone, I can do the "other battery" test first.

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#1077546 - 10/09/11 04:19 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
I fully understand....

try the other battery first...

in fact, try hooking the battery plus to the end of the ballast where the brown wire is connected...btw, does the black wire that connects there go to the coil positive?

And ground the battery negative to something convenient under the hood...engine, sheet metal, regular battery clamp, etc.

If practical, disconnect the brown cable from the ballast and replace it with the jumper from the new battery...just be sure it still gets power to the coil via the black wire if that is where it goes...in other words put the power from the new battery thru the ballast and to the coil


Edited by Strawdawg (10/09/11 04:24 PM)
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Steve

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#1077547 - 10/09/11 04:29 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Ok wait. Too much info, I am getting confused.

I tried hooking up a battery but I don't get enough juice from the battery to start the car ( only get a couple of clicks ) .

I don't have heavy enough cable to do that kind of jump I guess.

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#1077548 - 10/09/11 04:32 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
For the other voltage test of the brown wire, do I put everything back to normal then test voltage?

And I will have to test it at the terminal end as I cannot get a probe into the brown wire alone by myself.

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#1077549 - 10/09/11 04:39 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
no...not clear enuf instructions

I don't want you to disconnect the car battery.

I want you to use the second battery to power the coil and ignition module....In other words, I am trying eliminate any voltage drop by simply bypassing the starter circuit with the second battery.

here is the way the circuit works if I am reading the diagram correctly. When you turn the key to Start, power should be sent thru the brown wire to the end of the ballast resistor. From that point, it should go straight to the coil. Now the power should also go thru the ballast resistor and out the other end to the ignition box.

I wanted to use the second battery to connect to the end of the ballast where the brown wire connects by connecting a wire from the second battery plus to the end of the ballast where the brown wire connects. And provide a ground from the second battery to the engine, original battery, sheet metal, or something that is a good ground to complete the power circuit to the ballast/coil/ignition box.

Then I made it more confusing by saying it would be nice to remove the brown wire completely from the ballast to completely remove the factory circuit from the ignition so it could not be affected by anything coming from the key....this should not really be required.

I also mentioned you could leave the ballast bypassed for this test to eliminate it as a potential problem.

When connected up, then use the key and the car battery to crank from...don't remove it


In the end, we would have the starter powered by the original battery and the ignition powered by the second battery...does that make sense:)
_________________________
Steve

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#1077550 - 10/09/11 04:44 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I think I understand the concept, but hooking it up is another thing.

My mind is fried right now, been at this all day (again).

I need to stop for the day.
I'll reread this in the morning and hopefully it will be a little more clear.

Thanks for your help Steve.

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#1077551 - 10/09/11 04:48 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
No worries...its only help if it helps...
_________________________
Steve

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#1077552 - 10/09/11 09:04 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Quote:

Quote:

and one last thought...did we make sure the module box is well grounded?




I put my probe to the body of the ECU ( through the paint) and then to the body of the car and had continuity, I would think that would be good ground, no?




You need a good ground from the ECU to the engine block and battery, not just the body, and a continuity test does not tell you how much resistance is in the path.

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#1077553 - 10/09/11 09:49 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
That is an excellent point...

Normally, I check voltage drop across the circuit rather than check voltages at various points.

In this case, a probe on the case and a probe on the engine with the meter on volts...then crank the engine and whatever voltage shows up on the meter is an indication of how good/bad the ground would be. Having the ignition module box behind the glove box makes it hard to check things without about three people available-or some creative rigging

By yourself, it is hard.

I still think this is a simple problem but it is being difficult to corner.
_________________________
Steve

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#1077554 - 10/09/11 11:46 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Right, not an easy test to rig up and test by yourself. I just checked my DMM (a Greenlee #93-606 I bough at the hardware store several years ago), and the continuity buzzer would sound even with 33+ ohms of resistance (I put 3 100-Ohm resistors in parallel.) The buzzer did not sound at 50-Ohms FWIW.
But we are looking for bad connections / grounds that are closer to 1-ohm, so checking the voltage drop across the suspect connection points at high current draw works better than testing with the meters continuity buzzer or ohms range.

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#1077555 - 10/10/11 06:32 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
Oyvind Mopar Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 410
Loc: Norway (old world)
Hi, just want to give you a link for problem solving same problem earlier on Moparts.
Hope you fix it. Annoying problem.
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5616001&Main=5611904

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#1077556 - 10/10/11 06:33 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
Too bad he dosen't have a point distributor to drop in for a minute . he would at least know if the wiring harness , ballast , and cranking voltages were ok .
Like i said in previous posts, this looks to be ECM issue.
There is only one thing I can think of that has not been addressed .......is it possible that the ignition switch housing is worn and when in starting mode he has the key twisted beyond the contacts and that only the starter is cranking and no ignition? But isn't the ignition being fed from the relay ?

I don't know whats wrong why this car is not starting and I see no reasons why it won't at present time and what been tried .

This is not rocket science, i know its difficult for someone who is just learning but for us seniors who have 40 -50 yrs at this stuff, it bugs me to no end .


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#1077557 - 10/10/11 09:32 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: mopar_man]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
LOL...you are right...for those of us that starting off building crystal set radios 60 years ago, using a meter and checking circuits was just part of growing up. It's frustrating to try to help someone and not being able to show them how to do it.

This one is crazy because it does not work when everything is bypassed, but, we know the components work because it does start and run. Going to an extreme and powering it from a separate battery may seem uncalled for, but, it seems we have to prove it will work when it gets the right voltage.

The anomaly in this set up is the ignition box mounted inside the car...we may ultimately discover that the quality of ground is turning it off when the current draw increases.
_________________________
Steve

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#1077558 - 10/10/11 09:51 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
I think it may still be a grounding problem?
The issue may be that differences between the engine block ground and chassis ground may cause the reference point of the magnetic pickup trigger to change where the ECU is not sensing the pulses from the distrubitor. Which leads back to replace battery cables, and add grounds from ECU to engine block, and battery to chassis.

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#1077559 - 10/10/11 09:57 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Quote:

I think it may still be a grounding problem?
The issue may be that differences between the engine block ground and chassis ground may cause the reference point of the magnetic pickup trigger to change where the ECU is not sensing the pulses from the distrubitor. Which leads back to replace battery cables, and add grounds from ECU to engine block, and battery to chassis.




sure would not bet against it
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Steve

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#1077560 - 10/11/11 07:00 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I am hoping to work on the car tomorrow, at least for a little while.
I am going to take the glove box out again (and leave it out) so I can have easier access to the ECU for testing.

Mopar man, can you explain more about your theory of the ignition switch being worn out? With the replacement of the switch, what exactly would be worn?
The key goes in the cylinder and all that does is allow it to move the switch into the various positions, right?
Or am I missing something?

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#1077561 - 10/11/11 07:02 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
And BTW I built those crystal radios too when I was a kid, problem is, it was about 35 years ago, and my memory ain't so good now .


Besides , I was never any good at diagnosing electrical problems..

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#1077562 - 10/11/11 09:14 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
mopar_man Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4664
Loc: Newfoundland
Quote:

I am hoping to work on the car tomorrow, at least for a little while.
I am going to take the glove box out again (and leave it out) so I can have easier access to the ECU for testing.

Mopar man, can you explain more about your theory of the ignition switch being worn out? With the replacement of the switch, what exactly would be worn?
The key goes in the cylinder and all that does is allow it to move the switch into the various positions, right?
Or am I missing something?




Monc, I never said the ignition switch would be worn out . I was wondering about the housing . I am not sure of the configuration , did you replace the whole unit including the cylinder and keys ? Even if you replaced the switch and never replaced the rest of the ignition it may be possible that the key could be turning the switch beyond the contacts that energize the ECM. I really don't know if thats possible but at this point most of us are just grasping for straws.
This engine should be running long ago .
How about twisting the key very slowly and don't twist all the way, just enough for the starter to engage and see what happens. It just may be that your twisting beyond the starter contacts .

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#1077563 - 10/11/11 10:19 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Quote:

I am hoping to work on the car tomorrow, at least for a little while.
I am going to take the glove box out again (and leave it out) so I can have easier access to the ECU for testing................






Is it bolted to the firewall? Thinking of a means to run a ground strap from the mounting bolt to the engine to cover that base

I find it much easier to troubleshoot than try to give clear instructions on how to do it
_________________________
Steve

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#1077564 - 10/12/11 12:25 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
magnum440 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 347
Loc: texas
last time my challenger had that symptom or it would kick the engine over for a second on key release it was ecu...always good idea to carry a spare ecu anyways...one way to do a quick test it is to just turn ign. on unplug dist connector,,and on the harness side the male terminal just touch it to ground for a second you should hear it spark every time you ground it...if it sparks problem probably in dist,,,if it doesnt spark then problem is in the car,,had a bad dist connector on harness side once even though it looked good it wasnt...


Attachments
6867471-70blckcuda.jpg (82 downloads)


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#1077565 - 10/12/11 06:10 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: magnum440]
63stabamatic Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Palmyra, NY
FWIW A guy at last nights cruise said he had this problem, said the DC wires to the coil were somehow reversed. This was a standard original points system though.

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#1077566 - 10/13/11 10:31 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: mopar_man]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Quote:

I am hoping to work on the car tomorrow, at least for a little while.
I am going to take the glove box out again (and leave it out) so I can have easier access to the ECU for testing.

Mopar man, can you explain more about your theory of the ignition switch being worn out? With the replacement of the switch, what exactly would be worn?
The key goes in the cylinder and all that does is allow it to move the switch into the various positions, right?
Or am I missing something?




Monc, I never said the ignition switch would be worn out . I was wondering about the housing . I am not sure of the configuration , did you replace the whole unit including the cylinder and keys ? Even if you replaced the switch and never replaced the rest of the ignition it may be possible that the key could be turning the switch beyond the contacts that energize the ECM. I really don't know if thats possible but at this point most of us are just grasping for straws.
This engine should be running long ago .
How about twisting the key very slowly and don't twist all the way, just enough for the starter to engage and see what happens. It just may be that your twisting beyond the starter contacts .




I was just trying to understand where these contacts are so I can check them. I did not replace the lock cylinder , only the ignition switch.
I will try your suggestion though, easy enough to do.

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#1077567 - 10/13/11 10:34 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Quote:

I am hoping to work on the car tomorrow, at least for a little while.
I am going to take the glove box out again (and leave it out) so I can have easier access to the ECU for testing................






Is it bolted to the firewall? Thinking of a means to run a ground strap from the mounting bolt to the engine to cover that base

I find it much easier to troubleshoot than try to give clear instructions on how to do it




The ECU is not bolted to the firewall it is bolted to the dash frame.

I didn't get a chance to do anything the other day, will have to wait until Saturday.

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#1077568 - 10/22/11 09:28 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Ok, finally got some time to work on car again.

I checked the lock cylinder, while the housing is a little loose I could not detect any changes as I turn the key in different positions.

I dismounted the ECU , but left it hooked up to see if there was any change in the starting issue.

With it unmounted and hooked up the car cranks but does not start.
I interpreted that to mean I have no ground, which tells me it had a good ground before.

Regardless, I am going to clean up the areas where it grounds to the frame and reinstall right now and see what happens.

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#1077569 - 10/22/11 09:39 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Do you have another ECU to try ?

also do you have a helper to crank the car over while you check to see that you have voltage at the positive side of the coil ? Not sure if you did that already ?

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#1077570 - 10/22/11 10:07 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Just changed the ECU on the odd chance the generic replacement was no good.

No helpers , unfortunately.

Going to go back in the post and look at the ECU tests now that I have it accessible . ( mounted behind glove box - no I did not put it there...)

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#1077571 - 10/22/11 10:09 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:


Going to go back in the post and look at the ECU tests now that I have it accessible . ( mounted behind glove box - no I did not put it there...)




Since you have it unbolted now might be the time to move it to a place more accessible ? But out of sight?

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#1077572 - 10/22/11 10:13 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Yeah, I was thinking about that. Was trying to figure out how to route the wiring to a place inside I could mount it to , or through the firewall


Between posts, I just remounted a new ECU after thoroughly sanding the mounting area and the ECU and the bolts for a good ground.

I remounted it, and it STARTED IN THE START POSITION !!!!!!

Not sure if this is the end of my troubles though.

The car would idle fine for 20 minutes or more, but when I get on the road and drive, it would stall after about a mile or 2.

I am hoping this is a related issue, only 1 way to find out...

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#1077573 - 10/22/11 10:41 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Hey!!! It is undoubtedly progress...that has to be a good feeling. Sounds like it may have been suffering a big voltage drop across the ground when the starter was engaged.

I would try to insure a good ground path back to the engine to optimize it.

Keeping my fingers crossed that it keeps running!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
Steve

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#1077574 - 10/22/11 10:56 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
THanks Steve, yeah it's a good feeling.

Just started it again after sitting ,and started right up and idled well, sounds good.

Going to have to go drive it and see what happens now.

Hopefully it won't cut out.

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#1077575 - 10/22/11 10:56 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34639
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

I just remounted a new ECU after thoroughly sanding the mounting area and the ECU and the bolts for a good ground. and it STARTED IN THE START POSITION !!!!!!

Not sure if this is the end of my troubles though.

The car would idle fine for 20 minutes or more, but when I get on the road and drive, it would stall after about a mile or 2.




After reading the 1st sentence I thought naw it was just the ECU it cant be that simple . Stick the old ECU back in there & see what happens now that you know the ground is good & lets see if it was a ground or an ECU prob then on to the stalling prob...
_________________________
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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#1077576 - 10/22/11 11:47 AM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert]
SomeCarGuy Offline
master

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 8508
Loc: Someplace you aren't
This is exactly why I ALWAYS ground the ECU. You will get weird things going on when they have intermitent ground. I've put "bad" ECU's back on for people and they work with a good ground.

Glad you got it going.
_________________________
Forever in debt to your priceless advice...

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#1077577 - 10/22/11 12:25 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: SomeCarGuy]
mcmopars Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1012
Loc: indiana
well here you go.mine will do what yours does.when it acts up and wont start,i get out and unplug the ballast,reconnect,and she fires.figure that out?i have not.it will be ok for well maybe 1/2 a season then do it again.


Edited by mcmopars (10/22/11 12:33 PM)

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#1077578 - 10/22/11 01:03 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: mcmopars]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Quote:

well here you go.mine will do what yours does.when it acts up and wont start,i get out and unplug the ballast,reconnect,and she fires.figure that out?i have not.it will be ok for well maybe 1/2 a season then do it again.




You might try disconnecting it, shining up the terminals...put a dab of dielectric grease...or even plain grease on....and then reconnect. Wait half a season and see if it does it aain
_________________________
Steve

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#1077579 - 10/22/11 01:53 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
mcmopars Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1012
Loc: indiana
Quote:

Quote:

well here you go.mine will do what yours does.when it acts up and wont start,i get out and unplug the ballast,reconnect,and she fires.figure that out?i have not.it will be ok for well maybe 1/2 a season then do it again.




You might try disconnecting it, shining up the terminals...put a dab of dielectric grease...or even plain grease on....and then reconnect. Wait half a season and see if it does it aain





nope

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#1077580 - 10/22/11 02:16 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: mcmopars]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
You're right...no need trying to fix it when you can just wait til it does not start and replug it
_________________________
Steve

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#1077581 - 10/22/11 06:20 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
mcmopars Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1012
Loc: indiana
Quote:

You're right...no need trying to fix it when you can just wait til it does not start and replug it [/



im trying to fix it,ive done your idea years ago

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#1077582 - 10/22/11 10:34 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: mcmopars]
SomeCarGuy Offline
master

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 8508
Loc: Someplace you aren't
I'd say you have a bad crimp on one of the ballast wires and you reconnect the wire and get it back to where it makes good contact.
_________________________
Forever in debt to your priceless advice...

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#1077583 - 11/05/11 12:20 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: SomeCarGuy]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Well, after many weeks and one hell of a snowstorm, finally took the car out for a ride to see if it the stalling issue was fixed.

The car ran pretty well, and I was finally able to get it inspected.

Couple of side notes, I had no brake lights when they went to check them, I knocked off the brake light switch while working under the dash for so long , DOH !

On the way back just as I was approaching home, I thought I heard the rear whining a little. Not sure if that was due to the cold weather or not.

Regardless, the car is safe back at home, thanks again for everyone's help

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#1077584 - 11/05/11 03:54 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
It never stops with an old car....not for long anyway...glad you got that problem behind you. I always feel better when something gets resolved.
_________________________
Steve

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#1077585 - 11/05/11 06:14 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Yep, just like houses, it never ends...(I really wish it would though)

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