Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 10 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 10
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dustyswinger] #1077514
10/09/11 01:00 PM
10/09/11 01:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

I read where he powered up the coil positive but not the ign box. If im wrong sorry. Just trying to help.




No worries, I appreciate the assistance.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Golden-Arm] #1077515
10/09/11 01:03 PM
10/09/11 01:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Neutral Start Switch




Where is the neutral starter switch?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077516
10/09/11 01:08 PM
10/09/11 01:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

451mopar is where we were a week or so ago. This should be a simple thing to find.

We keep worrying about the ignition switch, the bulkhead connector, etc., but that was eliminated by the jumpers from the battery if they were connected as we asked.

I asked him a few posts up to take some voltages off the battery while cranking it to try to demonstrate that problem was in that area even tho we should have shown that with the jumper tests.

I was also trying to determine if the problem was on the plus side, or the negative side, of the battery. A bad ground connection will do the same as a a bad positive connection.

Long ago, I had asked to power the ignition box/coil off a separate battery to show it would then start if nothing was pulling the ignition voltage down. This was not done to my knowledge, but, really, the first thing to find out what is causing the big drop.

I had originally guessed a bad battery, a bad connection, or a starter that was pulling way too much current. Given the size of the voltage drop and the fact that the starter is spinning, I would probably guess one of the latter two, but, a few tests should find the answer.

Sometimes these things are really confusing and it takes a logical approach to try to zero in on the actual problem-old cars where every thing should be suspect do not make it easier.:)




I've been testing the best I could, it has been difficult, frustrating and confusing, and sometimes all at the same time.
Like NOW.

At this point I've done so many changes and tests, with no change in the issue, I don't know what is wrong

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077517
10/09/11 01:30 PM
10/09/11 01:30 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
master
451Mopar  Offline
master

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
Monc, is there anyone on here who who lives close to give you a hand? I know it is a pain to trouble shoot this problem. I'm an electrical engineer and it took me quite some time to figure out the problem when it happened on my '68 dodge truck. On my truck, it would start when cold, but when warn it did the only starts after releasing the key thing. The difference is heat increases the resistance of the battery cables so I was loosing more voltage through the cables with the warmed up engine.
One trick I tried, that helped a little (before I found out I had a bad ground battery cable) was to install a diode across the ballast resistor, to reduce the voltage drop at the ballast resistor (going back to the ECU) when cranking the engine.

In your case, have you tried a known good battery, the battery voltages seem a bit low?

On the otherhand this is another reason I dislike the stock style electronic ignition setup (including the Mopar conversion kit, which is just a 4-pin version of the stock electronic ignition.)
All but one of my cars has either a CD ignition or an all-in-one distrubitor/ignition.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar] #1077518
10/09/11 01:33 PM
10/09/11 01:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

Monc, is there anyone on here who who lives close to give you a hand?


I'm about ready to hitchhike over there


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar] #1077519
10/09/11 01:47 PM
10/09/11 01:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Monc, is there anyone on here who who lives close to give you a hand? I know it is a pain to trouble shoot this problem. I'm an electrical engineer and it took me quite some time to figure out the problem when it happened on my '68 dodge truck. On my truck, it would start when cold, but when warn it did the only starts after releasing the key thing. The difference is heat increases the resistance of the battery cables so I was loosing more voltage through the cables with the warmed up engine.
One trick I tried, that helped a little (before I found out I had a bad ground battery cable) was to install a diode across the ballast resistor, to reduce the voltage drop at the ballast resistor (going back to the ECU) when cranking the engine.

In your case, have you tried a known good battery, the battery voltages seem a bit low?





I jumped the ballast resistor ( I think this accomplishes the same thing, no? and it did not change the issue) .

I switched batteries, and that didn't make a difference, but then the original was at least 5 years old, so I decided to buy a new one.

No change.

I did have a friend come by and help for a while and after he read the replies ,he is at a loss as well.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert] #1077520
10/09/11 01:49 PM
10/09/11 01:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Quote:

Monc, is there anyone on here who who lives close to give you a hand?


I'm about ready to hitchhike over there




Thanks, needed the laugh.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077521
10/09/11 01:51 PM
10/09/11 01:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
I wasn't laughing


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: RapidRobert] #1077522
10/09/11 02:03 PM
10/09/11 02:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
I laughed on the inside, on the outside I'm about ready to cry, but since I'm a man I'll just get angry and curse and throw things...


So what is an acceptable voltage drop?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077523
10/09/11 02:14 PM
10/09/11 02:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

I laughed on the inside, on the outside I'm about ready to cry, but since I'm a man I'll just get angry and curse and throw things...


So what is an acceptable voltage drop?


(1) that's the story of my life (2) maybe a tenth (.1v) per connection (when cranking)


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077524
10/09/11 02:24 PM
10/09/11 02:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
S
Strawdawg Offline
member
Strawdawg  Offline
member
S

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
Quote:

Quote:

What is the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp...not the battery post, but the clamp, when you crank the car over? And, then on the actual post, not the clamp...when cranking?




I measured the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp while cranking as requested, it was approximately 10.9 volts.

I cannot measure it at the post while cranking because I am by myself and cannot figure out a way to rig something to just touch the post and nothing else without holding it.

I also measured it at the positive clamp at rest and it was about 12.8 volts.




I have the same problem all the time Need one or two more hands...

Okay, that is not nearly as much drop as we see at the coil or module as I recall.

So let's see what we have on the ground side.

Can you connect the probe to a good engine ground while keeping the positive probe on the Positive clamp and check the voltage while cranking?

Then do the same but put the ground probe on a body ground (not the same place as the ground cable is connected)


Steve
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077525
10/09/11 02:36 PM
10/09/11 02:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
Can you give me examples of a good engine ground?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077526
10/09/11 03:31 PM
10/09/11 03:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
S
Strawdawg Offline
member
Strawdawg  Offline
member
S

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
Any place like an intake bolt or anything you get a good connection to on the engine...if you can connect the positive probe to the cable clamp and scratch a clean spot on an engine bolt with the ground probe, then hold the probe to that spot while you crank the engine with a screw driver on the starter relay....

Some day, I may yet buy a remote starter button


Steve
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077527
10/09/11 03:37 PM
10/09/11 03:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Okay, that is not nearly as much drop as we see at the coil or module as I recall.

So let's see what we have on the ground side.

Can you connect the probe to a good engine ground while keeping the positive probe on the Positive clamp and check the voltage while cranking?

Then do the same but put the ground probe on a body ground (not the same place as the ground cable is connected)




Ok results were the same for each test:

Voltage while cranking 10.7

What does that mean?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077528
10/09/11 03:51 PM
10/09/11 03:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
S
Strawdawg Offline
member
Strawdawg  Offline
member
S

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
Depending what the battery reads when not cranking, it means there is a bit over 1 volt drop when cranking which I don't believe is excessive.

If 10.7 volts is getting to the ignition module and the coil, the car should start.

Now, if we jumpered from the battery to the coil and module a week ago, or whenever it was, then there is no reason for the car not to start when the jumper is there as that would take the drop that we see thru the normal wiring out of play.

It does mean, that if we are seeing 8+ volts on the key side of the ballast, there is a big drop in the circuit but that does not account for it not starting with the jumper in place as that removes the normal circuit.

Can you verify that you did, indeed, jump to both the coil and the module from the battery at the same time?


Steve
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077529
10/09/11 03:57 PM
10/09/11 03:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Can you verify that you did, indeed, jump to both the coil and the module from the battery at the same time?




I did not jump anything to the module as it is mounted in a very hard to work with place.

I only replaced the module. Then reinstalled everything I had to do to get to it.

The other reason I didn't do any module tests, is how do I know which pin does what to properly do the test??

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077530
10/09/11 04:06 PM
10/09/11 04:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
S
Strawdawg Offline
member
Strawdawg  Offline
member
S

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
uh oh! I apologize to the guy I told we had already done that....I am wrong!

Okay, I have to go see how to install an electronic ignition with a two prong ignition to find out how to power the module.

My current guess is too little voltage during cranking to the module...once again


Last edited by Strawdawg; 10/09/11 04:09 PM.

Steve
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077531
10/09/11 04:12 PM
10/09/11 04:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC Offline OP
master
MONC  Offline OP
master

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,653
The Historic Hudson Valley
No worries, I appreciate you hangin' in there with me , as well as the rest you guys.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077532
10/09/11 04:16 PM
10/09/11 04:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
S
Strawdawg Offline
member
Strawdawg  Offline
member
S

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
Okay, looks like the light blue wire with an yellow tracer is the power wire to the module.

It should connect to one end of the ballast resistor...if this is what you see on yours, then connect a jumper from the battery to this end of the ballast and see if the car will start when you go to Start.

If it does, then we can start looking for the problem spot..if not, we buy Robert a bus ticket to your house


Steve
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077533
10/09/11 04:38 PM
10/09/11 04:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
S
Strawdawg Offline
member
Strawdawg  Offline
member
S

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
and, if that did not work, leave that jumper in place and run another one from the battery directly to the coil +


Steve
Page 7 of 10 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 10






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1