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Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: mopar_man] #1077474
10/02/11 05:31 PM
10/02/11 05:31 PM
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Quote:

monc, several posts ago i asked you to jump the wiring harness (pos on battery to pos on coil )
Did it start then when you turned the key to start position ?

NO it did not.

If it didn't , leave the key in the run position and try cranking it at the starting motor (big terminal on starter jumped to small terminal )

Ok I will try that now.

if it starts then , I still say the ecm is not powered when the key is in start position .



Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077475
10/02/11 05:38 PM
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It did not start with key in run position and jumped at starter relay
.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077476
10/02/11 05:49 PM
10/02/11 05:49 PM
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ok , if it didn't start when you jumped (pos bat to pos coil)and then jumped at relay with the key in run position but still starts when you release the key to run position your starter is drawing too much current and it looks like there is not enough current left over to power up ECM .

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077477
10/02/11 05:55 PM
10/02/11 05:55 PM
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Quote:



I already replaced the ignition switch.






Question- With the key in the run position, how does the car start when you jump the starter relay?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077478
10/02/11 06:00 PM
10/02/11 06:00 PM
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Quote:

It did not start with key in run position and jumped at starter relay
.




Just to make sure you guys aren't getting crossed up. Is jumping at the starter relay bypassing the same wiring as if you jumped it on the actual starter?

You state that it didn't start when jumped at starter relay, but he asked you to jump at the starter.



1971 Plymouth Satellite
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Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: roe] #1077479
10/02/11 06:11 PM
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Ok I know this is going to be confusing and I know I said it didn't start just now when I had key in the run position and jumped it at the start relay, BUT ...

I figured the car was cold and the battery weak from cranking so, I jumped the battery, started the car as I had done before ( when I released the key from the start position).

Then, I let the car idle for about 15 minutes to let the battery charge and the car warm up.

THEN I tried the test again.
Put the key in the RUN position , then jumped it from the relay , and it STARTED .

So what does this mean? It starts in RUN position now with the key, what does it matter that I started the car in the RUN position by jumping it at the relay?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077480
10/02/11 06:17 PM
10/02/11 06:17 PM
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Quote:


Put the key in the RUN position , then jumped it from the relay , and it STARTED .

So what does this mean? It starts in RUN position now with the key, what does it matter that I started the car in the RUN position by jumping it at the relay?




It means the ECU or coil is not getting enough voltage while the key is in the crank position. Could be a bad ignition switch or poor connection at the bulkhead connector.

You need to check both the coil+ terminal and the voltage feed to the ECU during cranking to see what the drop is. That is how I found out our power wagon had a bad ignition switch as the ECU voltage would drop below 9 volts during cranking.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: gdonovan] #1077481
10/02/11 06:28 PM
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I've done that already ( see previous posts of voltages found), and replaced the ignition switch.

Guess I'll go back to the bulkhead connector...again....

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077482
10/02/11 09:45 PM
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So what does this mean? It starts in RUN position now with the key, what does it matter that I started the car in the RUN position by jumping it at the relay?

It means that everything is fine with the wiring until your key goes to the start position.

So, you got new ignition switch so we'll assume its working ok but somewhere from the ignition switch on out through the wiring harness there is an open circuit thats not powering up the coil , or the ecm and it could be the bulkhead connector.
if its running good and starting fine in run position, it should be just a matter of elimination to find your problem.
wish i was closer , prolly fine the trouble pretty quick .

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077483
10/03/11 12:03 AM
10/03/11 12:03 AM
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You mentioned the ECU is mounted under the dash?
Could it be getting power from the ACC side of the fuseblock, and not from the run side of the ballast resistor as is the normal wiring configuration?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar] #1077484
10/03/11 12:39 AM
10/03/11 12:39 AM
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Quote:

You mentioned the ECU is mounted under the dash?
Could it be getting power from the ACC side of the fuseblock, and not from the run side of the ballast resistor as is the normal wiring configuration?




Try this test to verify if the ECU is wired to the ACC power.

#1 - disconnect the starter relay spade connector so the engine/starter will not spin when putting the key in the "start" position.
#2 - put key in the ACC position.
#3 - Jumper a wire from the battery positive to the ignition coil "+" terminal.
#4 - use a starter switch or wire from the starter relay spade connection to the positive post of the relay to start the car.

I think the car will now start?

With the engine running, and the starter wire still disconnected from the starter relay so the starter will not engage, turn the key to the "start" position and hold it there. If the engine dies, you just verified the ECU is on the ACC circuit, not the RUN circuit.

When the key is in the "run/on" position you are powering the Accessory circuit (radio, ect), and the engine compartment run circuit (Normally power to the ECU, alt field, voltage regulator, ballast resistor and carb choke heater if equiped.)

Because the ECU was moved to a non-stock location, it may be wired to the wrong power circuit.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar] #1077485
10/03/11 10:12 AM
10/03/11 10:12 AM
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Thanks Mopar Man, I wish you were closer as well..I hate electrical problems.

451Mopar , I have had the same configuration the entire time ( ECU mounted under dash), so it doesn't make sense to me that the car which previously started in the START position, is now due to the configuration, but I appreciate your suggestion.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077486
10/03/11 11:51 AM
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That makes me think it is still grounding issues or a bad/marginal ballast resistor.

Putting a jumper wire from the battery positive to the ignition coil "+" terminal is the same as having the ignition key in the start position. This bypasses all the dash wiring. You could totally disconnect the bulkhead connector and the engine should start.
The issue with the ballast resistor is if it may be partly burnt and has higher resistance than normal. In the start position, power starting at the coil, power must run back through the ballast resistor to supply power to the ECU, alternator, and voltage regulator.
With a jumper wire across the ballast resistor, and the jumper from battery to ignition coil everything should be getting full power.
Now everything is eliminated from the circuit equation except the grounding paths. The ECU grounds itself through the case to the body (if it has a good connection), and the starter grounds itself through the engine block.
I don't know if you are using a battery ground wire that has a lead to ground the body, or ground wires from the engine block to the body?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar] #1077487
10/03/11 12:41 PM
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I've replaced the ballast resistor along with every othe component I could think of.

When replacing the ECU I checked with my meter that I had ground from the unit to the body of the car.

I have additional grouding straps from the neg. battery terminal to the body of the car, and have checked them as well.

I did try putting a jumper from the battery pos. to the coil pos. and it did not resolve the issue.
I have not tried jumping the ballast resistor yet, I could try that, along with bypassing the harness as you suggested. Couldn't hurt.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077488
10/03/11 03:45 PM
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Quote:

I've done that already ( see previous posts of voltages found), and replaced the ignition switch.

Guess I'll go back to the bulkhead connector...again....




Just because you replaced the ignition switch does not mean it is not the problem. Why did you replace the switch to begin with?

You have a 2 prong ballast , if it was bad the car wouldn't run when the key is released , you have the opposite problem.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR] #1077489
10/03/11 05:13 PM
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Did you replace the 5 pin ECU with a 5 pin or a 4 pin?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR] #1077490
10/03/11 09:35 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

I've done that already ( see previous posts of voltages found), and replaced the ignition switch.

Guess I'll go back to the bulkhead connector...again....




Just because you replaced the ignition switch does not mean it is not the problem. Why did you replace the switch to begin with?

You have a 2 prong ballast , if it was bad the car wouldn't run when the key is released , you have the opposite problem.




could be bad right out the box. Had it happen to me with either a coil or dizzy. I replaced both, car was acting funny still and symptoms pointed to one of the two. So I exchanged both and replaced again and car ran like a top. So one of those was bad right out the box, just dont know which one since I replaced them at the same time.



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408/904 8 3/4 3.23 SG
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR] #1077491
10/05/11 02:24 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

I've done that already ( see previous posts of voltages found), and replaced the ignition switch.

Guess I'll go back to the bulkhead connector...again....




Just because you replaced the ignition switch does not mean it is not the problem. Why did you replace the switch to begin with?





I replaced the switch because I thought it might be the problem. The same reason I replaced the coil, the ballast resistor, the ECU, the starter relay, cap and rotor, plugs, and cleaned the bulkhead connections and checked the grounds.

Obviously I've missed something.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: stumpy] #1077492
10/05/11 02:25 PM
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Quote:

Did you replace the 5 pin ECU with a 5 pin or a 4 pin?




Replaced with the same, almost positive it was a 4 pin.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077493
10/05/11 02:35 PM
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I have had problems replacing a 5 pin with a 4 pin. It caused the problem you are having.

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