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Help - usually have to start my RR from under the hood #847969
11/07/10 01:31 PM
11/07/10 01:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 531
Virginia
RM21N0A Offline OP
mopar
RM21N0A  Offline OP
mopar

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 531
Virginia
70 RR - 383 - pretty much stock.
For years it has started inconsistently with the ignition switch, so sometimes I have to use a screwdriver to short the 2 studs on the starter relay. Or pop the clutch.

But, when it's hot, the ignition switch works.

Wiring all seems good, and I think I replaced the relay a few years ago, but from what I remember there was no change.

Any ideas/suggestions?

Replace the relay again? The switch? Something else?

Seems like I'm having to use the screwdriver more and more often lately.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Help - usually have to start my RR from under the hood [Re: RM21N0A] #847970
11/07/10 02:29 PM
11/07/10 02:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
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Yancy Derringer Offline
mopar
Yancy Derringer  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
When you say "it won't start" I assume you mean "the starter does not crank?"


Try actually troubleshooting it. Here's what I'd do. First, rig a test lamp with some long test leads so you can "get to stuff" and go to RadioSh** and buy a pack of clip leads Now this test lamp should NOT BE the kind you usually buy. rig one up with a STOP LAMP (turn signal) bulb. The reason you want a BIG bulb is so it will pull some current. This is important

Now EVERYTIME you start the car--until you find the problem, perform a test until you eliminate the problem. Open the hood before you insert the key, and if it won't crank, you can have a test rigged to see what you find

Because the car (evidently) runs OK, we can assume the ign switch is GETTING power. But there's a "long ways" OUT of the switch to the starter

Here's the basic path:

The switch itself could be bad in the start position

the connector on the switch could be loose/ corroded

the connection through the bulkhead connector could be loose/ corroded

From the bulkhead connector, the ign switch feeds one push on connector on the start relay

If this is an original '70 stick car, it had/ has a clutch safety switch.

So the relay should have FOUR terminals, just like a Torqueflite

So the second push on terminal of the start relay goes BACK through the firewall, to the clutch switch. (I don't remember---it may go through the bulkhead connector, or may be a separate wire through a grommet.

The above wire goes to the clutch safety switch.


The clutch safety switch, if still there, may be out of adjustment or defective

Last, the second terminal of the clutch safety switch goes to ground

AND the start relay could be bad (internal damage, rust, burned contacts)

OK, first thing to do is find out if you are getting power to the start relay FROM THE KEY

So, once again, instead of "jumping in" and twisting the key, "assume" that it won't crank and set up a test.

My (poor) diagram shows the ign sw. wire feeding the start relay is yellow. Pull this off, clip your test lamp on there to ground, and twist the key. If the light comes on, you MAY have power OK

If not, you have already isolated the problem from there---through the bulkhead--to the ign switch.

IF you DO get a light, hook the yellow back up, and pull loose the second push-on terminal.

Hook the lamp from the exposed terminal on the relay to ground, and twist the key. Get a light, then OK so far.

So is it the clutch switch?

Go inside the car, clip the test lamp on the un--grounded terminal of the safety switch, the other clip of the lamp to ground.

DO NOT push in the clutch. Twist the key, you should get a light. NOW push in the key, the light should go out, and the starter should crank.

You may have to repeat these a couple of times---if the trouble is not showing up.

Another thing to try is to dig around up by the column I ?? believe ?? that you can acess the ignition switch connector down at the column. If you can, probe the yellow (start) wire there with your lamp to ground when twisting the key.


These are simple circuits, guys. The biggest problem is figuring a way to connect your lamp, and to keep at it.

You can buy a lOT of parts and throw at the thing, then find out it was a simple wire end broke/ corroded, etc.

Re: Help - usually have to start my RR from under the hood [Re: RM21N0A] #847971
11/07/10 02:42 PM
11/07/10 02:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,260
SoCal
68HemiB Offline
master
68HemiB  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,260
SoCal
You should consider diagnosing the actual problem, instead of throwing parts at it.

The good news is that your intermittent problem will manifest itself often enough for you to troubleshoot (it's the once-in-a-blue-moon intermittent problems that are a bear).

Arm yourself with a volt/ohm meter and a wiring diagram. A good online source for wiring diagrams is MyMopar.com.

Given that arcing the starter relay with a screwdriver works, you already know that the starter, battery, and large wires connecting them are not the culprit.

Your manual transmission 1970 Plymouth Satellite needs two other things for the starting system to function properly:

1. A ground through the clutch/neutral safety switch [probably dark green].

2. Power from the ignition switch when in the start position [probably yellow].

Check for continuity to ground (ohms setting on the V-O meter) at the appropriate connection at the starter relay when you stomp on the clutch. Lacking the ground, chase that circuit (firewall connector, switch, switch's ground).

Check for power (dc volts setting on V-O meter) at the appropriate connector on the starter relay when the ignition is in start position. Lacking power, chase that circuit (firewall connector, ignition switch connector, ignition switch itself).

Good luck. Electrical is not voodoo, contrary to what some might believe.


Down to just a blue car now.
Re: Help - usually have to start my RR from under the hood [Re: RM21N0A] #847972
11/07/10 04:29 PM
11/07/10 04:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 35,929
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Online content
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Online Content
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 35,929
Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

Or pop the clutch. Any ideas/suggestions?



yancy & hemib covered it in detail. W that symptom I'd start w the sw on the clutch (see if it's grounding it all the way to the starter relay) then pull apart/clean the bulkheads (use a spare male terminal (NAPA # 725147) to clean the female ones and a mini steel bristle brush to get to both sides of the male ones.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Help - usually have to start my RR from under the hood [Re: RapidRobert] #847973
01/20/11 05:38 PM
01/20/11 05:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 531
Virginia
RM21N0A Offline OP
mopar
RM21N0A  Offline OP
mopar

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 531
Virginia
Well, right after creating this thread, problem went away - hasn't come back yet, but it probably will. I do appreciate the suggestions though - so I thought I'd go ahead and reply. Better late than never.



Quote:

When you say "it won't start" I assume you mean "the starter does not crank?"




Yup - that's what I meant to say.

Turn the key - absolutely nothing would happen.

So I would start it with my screwdriver between the 2 studs on the starter relay.

After driving a while and getting it warmed up, I'd shut it off, then it would start right back up with the key just like brand new.

It's not the clutch safety switch - it was disconnected when I bought the car in 04 and I've always liked it that way. The wire is just grounded to the firewall. I figure if I want to start the car without touching the clutch pedal, that should be my choice.

I guess I was hoping that the fact that it always works right when hot would mean something to someone who would know exactly what the problem was - probably just means a loose connection somewhere.



Quote:

Your manual transmission 1970 Plymouth Satellite needs two other things




Hey, Road Runner bro, Road Runner......Satellite would be RL, or RH, or RP, or something, etc., etc......

I know I should have dug out the old Volt-Ohm Meter by now, or rigged up a test light, but starting it with a screwdriver hadn't really bugged me enough yet.

Also, thanks RapidRobert for the suggestion to clean all the connections - I've checked and cleaned all of them, but it didn't seem to help.

What I hope to do sometime this year is get the ignition switch out of the column and check those connections.

Seriously, thanks for the suggestions.

Now if VDOT would just stop putting down all that salt and chemicals and sand every time the weatherman says we're getting a few flurries so I can DRIVE IT AGAIN! It's been SIX WEEKS!

At least I can start it up and listen to it rumble every now and then.

6429234-Copyof70RR.jpg (65 downloads)
Last edited by RM21N0A; 01/21/11 10:14 AM.






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