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Re: who is the six pack king [Re: Mopar Mitch] #759054
08/13/10 06:27 PM
08/13/10 06:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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UPDATE -- worked Thursday eve on getting the floats set , vacuum observed and idle, mixture screws adjusted, 34/12 timing, about 1000 rpm final idle. But, when taken out for test drive, it stumbled, stalled. If i'd floor it, it would haul A..! Couldn't drive it reliably, so I got home and removed the 6pack setup and am installing my LD340/carter 625 AFB again. What a dissappointment I have... I will work again on the sixpack as I want it back on and running perfectly... I'll have more time after this wknd is over from Road America.

To get a reasonably high vacuum (13), I ended up with the metering screws set about 2 full turns out. Isn't that too much? I have 62 jets in the center, and also light springs in outbourd vacuum pods. And, I used the clear see-thru plugs on the bowls (a little tricky to get used to... maybe I should've pulled them out to positively confirm).

Any suggestions?
cell 847-682-0807


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: who is the six pack king [Re: Mopar Mitch] #759055
08/14/10 12:23 AM
08/14/10 12:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,466
Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
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ThermoQuad  Offline
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Mitch
I just saw your posts
Sorry I was too late to help immediately

Timing need to come up to 15 btdc
I think there is a vacuum leak and a leaky needle seat on the front carb

Re: who is the six pack king [Re: ThermoQuad] #759056
08/14/10 12:27 AM
08/14/10 12:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,466
Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
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I have been busy typing
This is not the final edition, but close enough for now

Here is a guide to tune six packs for street engines. Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block

Remember six pak engines run on the center carb and idle on all 3
The car must idle and run like a normal car before attempting any secondary action or wide open throttle passes.

A Good ignition system is required., MSD, Mallory or FBO mopar box, NO orange boxes or chrome boxes unless you know for sure it is early 80’s vintage. Anything made after 1988 is questionable.

Quality distributor cap & rotor
High quality spark plug wires like Firecore 50s
Spark plugs of the proper heat range.

Vacuum adv distributor
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary
THIS IS IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb

Make sure the timing is 15 - 18 deg btdc [advance] at idle. THIS IS IMPORTANT
Set the timing marks at 15 btdc and align the rotor with the cap-this is one reason the phasing was checked.

Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set.
A good quality vacuum gage is required,
Connect vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum source.

ATTENTION -195 degree thermostat- ATTENTION
THIS IS IMPORTANT
If you run a lower temp thermostat, raw fuel will collect in the intake
That fuel then burns off in the cruise mode.
Unless you have a wideband air fuel meter you will not see this happening, but you will have problems getting it to idle and see the mixture go leaner in the cruise mode.

The heat crossover should be blocked on big & small blocks
Note: in temps below 40 degree it will take a good while to get the car warmed up. Block heaters will eliminate the long warm ups.

Set the outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be careful when seating the idle screws to set them, gently is the word
Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read

Set the center carb idle adjustment screws at 1.5 turns out [ccw] THIS IS IMPORTANT

Check the center carb and be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [carb would have to be off the car to see this] You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates. If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.
If you have new carbs(untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb & a 6.5hg power valve The outboards will have the lead plugs covering the idle adj screws.

Starting point for center carb jetting stock 340 use 62’s, highly modified or stroker use 64’s,
Leave the outboards alone for now unless you have the jetable metering plates, if so read their instructions and follow them
You must know what power valve is in the center carb. Typically a 6.5

Fuel level adjustment THIS IS IMPORTANT, this is best done idling at 1000-1200 rpm
The slotted screw on top of the needle n seat is just a lock screw,
To adj the float level loosen the lock screw to rotate the seat nut,
Turning the adjuster nut counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it
Make only small 1/2 turns.
You must let the car run a 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off before rechecking level
Center carb the fuel level is at the bottom of the sight plug hole
Secondaries it is just starting to come over the bottom of the sight plug hole
This is critical so get it right.

Set idle to 950 rpm and allow engine to reach operating temp.

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required or fuel will puddle in the intake. .

If the car won’t idle: Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating? If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed.
Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum so use a 2.5 power valve.

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12-14 degrees BTDC.
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 16-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-114 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-14 BTDC

Re-Set the idle rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb. Using a good vacuum gage adj center carb mixture to highest reading of vacuum. If you do not have control over the idle mixture you have issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding.

Typically if you have the center carb idle mixture screws between 1 to 2 turns ccw
you do not have to adjust the outboard idle mixture any further. Starting with the front carb, adj the mixture screws one at a time 1/16th turn ccw, after turning each screw wait and see what the engine vacuum and rpm do. Obviously if you have a wideband a-f gauge you will see what is happening.

Beware of issues such as poor intake sealing, carb gaskets backwards, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900

Drive car like a normal person, no wide open throttle. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean as you will have no power.

Most times you are over jetted.... Do not over jet!
Over jetted carbs will have poor idle control.

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 15 degrees BTDC.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj each mixture screw to highest reading of vacuum. If you have a wideband afr meter set to 14.7

Recheck idle rpm and set to 850

How do you know when you are "there”?
The car will idle at 700-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp.
There is no smell of raw gas in the exhaust.
The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. Open a carb and look in
The spark plugs are clean.
The engine when cold starts easily, runs and drives smoothly from the get go.
The engine when hot restarts immediately without touching the throttle.
When the engine is rev’d and the throttle released it immediately returns to idle.

OK if you made it this far it’s time for the Secondaries

The reason you put the black spring is to delay the opening of the secondaries until the engine is ready for it. The engine will run fine on just the center carb till at least 3000 rpm. The air fuel mixture spikes lean when the secondaries open, but at higher rpms this is transparent and has no affect on performance. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless, but very apparent and usually scary to the uninitiated.

The long vacuum hoses for the outboard carbs need to be exactly the same length.

Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum

The best way to dial in the secondary air fuel ratio is with a wide band air fuel meter.
A fine tuned seatofthepantsometer and spark plug reading will work for the more experienced

If you made it this far and the car is bogging when the six pak opens you need to go back and recheck starting at the top.

Notes:

If the initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically the advance curve will need to be modified so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Automatic cars with too tight of a converter will cause significant idle rpm drops when in drive, the car will not run at it’s full potential so be sure to use the correct converter for the application.

Some cars like staggered jetting.

Re: who is the six pack king [Re: ThermoQuad] #759057
08/16/10 09:47 AM
08/16/10 09:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
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Motor City
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Tomquad,
Alot of good info there. I have been playing with my six pack all summer since I put the new engine in it. Mine did not like the black springs at all. I am down to the yellow springs right now. It seems to like those the best. Very heavy B-Body, loaded with options, weighs 4490 with a 1/4 tank of gas. Any other springs & it bogs or actually feels like it was surging.
I do not have a 195 degree t-stat. Never thought of that. I think I have a 160 degree in it now. No matter what changes or adjustments I make it doesn't like to idle unless I two foot it. It seems to like 18-20 degrees BTDC of timing the best.
I do only have 6 to 7 inches of vaccuum with this cam. Its a Comp Xtreme Energy .519/.521 on a 110, adv 294/306, @ .050 250/256. The engine was decked, squared, balanced, blueprinted & heads milled & comes in at a true 10.5:1.
I have my outers higher than the sight hole & the center just to where it trickles out. Car runs great & pulls hard, just won't idle. I am to the point where I was thinking of drilling 1/8" holes in the center throttle blades to get more air???


1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4
2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4
2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
Re: who is the six pack king [Re: 6PKRTSE] #759058
08/16/10 09:35 PM
08/16/10 09:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 836
lancaster, new york
macmic87 Offline
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lancaster, new york
Quote:

Tomquad,
Alot of good info there. I have been playing with my six pack all summer since I put the new engine in it. Mine did not like the black springs at all. I am down to the yellow springs right now. It seems to like those the best. Very heavy B-Body, loaded with options, weighs 4490 with a 1/4 tank of gas. Any other springs & it bogs or actually feels like it was surging.
I do not have a 195 degree t-stat. Never thought of that. I think I have a 160 degree in it now. No matter what changes or adjustments I make it doesn't like to idle unless I two foot it. It seems to like 18-20 degrees BTDC of timing the best.
I do only have 6 to 7 inches of vaccuum with this cam. Its a Comp Xtreme Energy .519/.521 on a 110, adv 294/306, @ .050 250/256. The engine was decked, squared, balanced, blueprinted & heads milled & comes in at a true 10.5:1.
I have my outers higher than the sight hole & the center just to where it trickles out. Car runs great & pulls hard, just won't idle. I am to the point where I was thinking of drilling 1/8" holes in the center throttle blades to get more air???




with your vacuum as low as it is, what power valve are you running? if you still have the stock 6.5 then you might need to change it.

Re: who is the six pack king [Re: macmic87] #759059
08/17/10 08:56 AM
08/17/10 08:56 AM
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Posts: 4,566
Motor City
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Motor City
Quote:

Quote:

Tomquad,
Alot of good info there. I have been playing with my six pack all summer since I put the new engine in it. Mine did not like the black springs at all. I am down to the yellow springs right now. It seems to like those the best. Very heavy B-Body, loaded with options, weighs 4490 with a 1/4 tank of gas. Any other springs & it bogs or actually feels like it was surging.
I do not have a 195 degree t-stat. Never thought of that. I think I have a 160 degree in it now. No matter what changes or adjustments I make it doesn't like to idle unless I two foot it. It seems to like 18-20 degrees BTDC of timing the best.
I do only have 6 to 7 inches of vaccuum with this cam. Its a Comp Xtreme Energy .519/.521 on a 110, adv 294/306, @ .050 250/256. The engine was decked, squared, balanced, blueprinted & heads milled & comes in at a true 10.5:1.
I have my outers higher than the sight hole & the center just to where it trickles out. Car runs great & pulls hard, just won't idle. I am to the point where I was thinking of drilling 1/8" holes in the center throttle blades to get more air???




with your vacuum as low as it is, what power valve are you running? if you still have the stock 6.5 then you might need to change it.




Nope, I thought of that prior also. I have a 2.5" in it now. It did have a 6.5" in the spring before I started tweaking on things. it just needs/wants more fuel on idle. I am going to drill out some idle bleeds on another metering block I have to see if this helps (next week).. I don't want the car down at all this week since its time for Woodward.


1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4
2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4
2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
Re: who is the six pack king [Re: 6PKRTSE] #759060
08/17/10 02:32 PM
08/17/10 02:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
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Texas
dannysbee Offline
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Have you adjusted the idle mixture on the end carbs? Has the distributor been recurved? I would adjust the the end carbs and take some of the mechanical advance out of the distributor if you have not.


Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
Re: who is the six pack king [Re: dannysbee] #759061
08/19/10 09:08 AM
08/19/10 09:08 AM
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Motor City
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Quote:

Have you adjusted the idle mixture on the end carbs? Has the distributor been recurved? I would adjust the the end carbs and take some of the mechanical advance out of the distributor if you have not.




I am going to try this after this weekend. I don't want to have the car down this week or weekend because of Woodward. I didn't even relize you could remove those lead plugs & adjust the out boards until I started reading more about it.


1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4
2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4
2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
Re: who is the six pack king [Re: ThermoQuad] #759062
08/20/10 03:40 PM
08/20/10 03:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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Mopar Mitch Update -- thasnks Tom for the cpl replies, and to all other as well. I ended up takin the 6pak off and reinstalling my ld340 setup. Drove up to Elkhart Lk Road America for the wknd of Aug 14/15.. had great experience as the "Pace Car" for all their road races that wknd... AWESOME!

I'm determined to get the 6pak reinstalled and running. May go ahead and purchase the PROMAX rear base plate and maybe f/r metering plates, or more. I have more time now.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
document for six pack setup [Re: ThermoQuad] #759063
08/20/10 05:43 PM
08/20/10 05:43 PM
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appleton,wis
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moparrookie Offline
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appleton,wis
your post mentioned a document for setup but I can not find it on your post and I sure would like the help. My 70/440-6 is running pretty good. Outboards are out one full turn, center is out 1-1/4 turn and am pulling 20 inches of vacuum. The issue is I can not lower the idle any lower than 910 rpm's unless I lean out the idle and at 1/2 turn out I get the lean backfire out the exhaust on deacceleration. If you have an opinion I would like to hear it.
Roger/nailer49@centurytel.net

PS. I have 64 jets and 10 degrees BTDC, electronic ignition and engine has 800 miles on it.

Re: who is the six pack king [Re: Mopar Mitch] #759064
08/20/10 10:33 PM
08/20/10 10:33 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,920
Joplin, MO USA
Robbins Offline
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Joplin, MO USA
Quote:

Mopar Mitch Update -- thasnks Tom for the cpl replies, and to all other as well. I ended up takin the 6pak off and reinstalling my ld340 setup. Drove up to Elkhart Lk Road America for the wknd of Aug 14/15.. had great experience as the "Pace Car" for all their road races that wknd... AWESOME!

I'm determined to get the 6pak reinstalled and running. May go ahead and purchase the PROMAX rear base plate and maybe f/r metering plates, or more. I have more time now.




I need to get back into mine....I finially fired it up a weekend ago. I bought the stuff from Promax and don't regret any of that. SB.....I may try one of Indy's new intakes and put my carbs on it down the road though. I haven't even really tried the stock one out.

Lot's of good info here for sure.


Moparlee
Re: who is the six pack king [Re: Robbins] #759065
08/26/10 08:46 AM
08/26/10 08:46 AM
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Fly Over States
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PHJ426 Offline
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bookmarking the thread good information here

Re: who is the six pack king [Re: PHJ426] #759066
08/26/10 10:16 PM
08/26/10 10:16 PM
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Motor City
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well, I went thru all three carbs once again. Right now, I have a 3.5 power valve in the center with 65 jets & went down to the white outboard springs. I made a rear carb adjusting tool out of a coat hanger to be able to adjust the air/fuel adj screws on the rear carb without taking it off.
It ROCKS now. The car have never RPM'd & pulled as hard as it does now. Pulls hard all the way to 6500 with ease & still seemes lke it wants more but I don't like to take it any higher. Cruising has no surge or miss & idles in gear very smoothly. Time to take it out to "Test & Tune" one of these Wed nights.


1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4
2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4
2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
Re: who is the six pack king [Re: 6PKRTSE] #759067
08/27/10 12:30 AM
08/27/10 12:30 AM
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Posts: 3,103
Phila Pa
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scatpacktom Offline
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Phila Pa
"Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum"

This statement is incorrect. Pulling a vacuum will make the secondary throttle blades flutter but will not make them open and they will not hold a vacuum. To test the diaphram you have to put your finger over the tiny hole in the throttle bore just below the casting line on the vacuum pod side and draw a vacuum. Only then will the pod hold a vacuum.

Can't tell you how many carbs I've repaired from "Dr Drillbigger" enlarging this passage. When this passage is enlarged it will slow down the secondaries, when it is drilled too large the secondaries won't open at all.

Re: who is the six pack king [Re: scatpacktom] #759068
08/27/10 03:04 AM
08/27/10 03:04 AM
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Posts: 1,607
Western Washington
Sixgun Offline
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A LOT of good advice, none I can really say would be wrong or off base...Here's my .02
Cams with longer duration events (like my .509 dinosaur) need a short and fast advance curve on the dizzy.The total can still be around 35-38 degrees "your results may vary" but the initial has to have a few more degrees to get the engine happy.
Seems like most aftermarket dizzys can do this or are already set up like this.
POWER VALVE should be selected when you get the setup to idle smooth and warmed up, get a PV about 2" LOWER than what you get on your vac gauge so when you tip in the carb(s) it enriches momentarily to get you off the idle circuit and into the power circuit of the carb.
ACCELERATOR PUMP I use the middle size pump(35cc?) not the 50 cc cause it does the job along with a #35 squirter nozzle
METERING PLATES from fast fuel takes standard holley jets and are good units.I have slightly staggered jetting (stage 2 setup I think) out of the MOPARTS archives...Great info there.
My end carbs still have the soft plugs covering the mixture screws, but these particular carbs were breathed on by QFT before they went belly up.
Waaaay back in the day I stuck a piece of plastic as a restriction in ONE of the end carb kill bleeds behind the vac pot, and with stock carbs and a "normal"set of springs came in strong but didn't bog. I liked this cause it was easily undone.I also scrounged the bigger holley bowl fittings and made everything 3/8" steel lines.
The single most important lessonb i ever learned about Six packs was CLEAN FUEL. I run a metal filter at the tank,and before the carter mech. pump. Just change them about twice a year if you drive a lot.The car only has 5/16" body line as of yet, but I have zero issues with fuel delivery.
Just my thoughts,I am only a "King" here cause its a really small country...;-)
Casey



I'm 55 now, no time to waste. Not a week goes by that I don't hear about someone passing on.Let's get out there,smoke some tires,have a beer with a good friend,do what you have always wanted to do.I am pretty sure no one will ever say on their deathbed "gee I'm glad my life was calm and boring"
Re: who is the six pack king [Re: Sixgun] #759069
08/29/10 09:42 PM
08/29/10 09:42 PM
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Fly Over States
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PHJ426 Offline
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I just got the new engine running and the cam in this one is much larger than the Mr Six Pack cam that was previously in the 440.

Now the cam is 240 degrees duration at .050" lift. So when I first started it up the 6.5 PV was open and dumping alot of fuel through the exhaust it would burn the eyes.Initial is 20 degrees with a MSD 6 box and firecore wires NGK 5670 plugs in a #7 heat range. Vacuum is very low but the power brakes still work........

I started Toms setup except I have a 160 Tstat for now. Jets are 66 in the center and the springs in the secondary carbs are the yellow striped IIRC its been years since I put them in there.

Anyway Idle is great now with the PV currently plugged. From dead idle to wot is crisp, pull out of wot to idle is smooth. Car starts great and cruises great no smell of raw fuel out the tailpipes.

My question is this, I believe with the 66 center jet its kinda helping not having the PV in there. What do you think?

Re: who is the six pack king [Re: PHJ426] #759070
08/29/10 10:59 PM
08/29/10 10:59 PM
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ST clair shores MI
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moretoys Offline
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ST clair shores MI
A little trick to determine if the outboards are workings.put a paper clip on the linkage.Paper clip will move/slide easily.if it moves,then you know they are opening.Correct me if I'm wrong.on a properly working system,you should not feel it? ?I have a 6 pack on my 383 charger.I can hear them open,but also the kick in the pants feel.I keep playing with springs.slight hesitaion,when it kicks in.

Re: who is the six pack king [Re: moretoys] #759071
08/30/10 01:42 AM
08/30/10 01:42 AM
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Fly Over States
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When mine is kicking in the RPM's rock and the ensuing John Force burnout begins. Im glad there is no bog or hesitation when the outboards open up on the six pack I have messed with.

Re: who is the six pack king [Re: PHJ426] #759072
06/18/13 08:42 PM
06/18/13 08:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 829
Orland Park, IL
kdcarman Offline
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kdcarman  Offline
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Orland Park, IL
Working on the getting the AAR running properly. I found the Six Pack tuning guide from 2010.

I am going to follow the guide - but the problem I am having is the idle drops significantly when the car is placed into drive. I had the trans rebuilt by Cope awhile back, don't know if the converter could be causing the problem as stated in the guide.

I have a question though before I go there. What does the following mean from the attached guide? How does the distributor phasing get checked?

Vacuum adv distributor
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary
THIS IS IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb


KD

1970 Cuda 4406
Re: who is the six pack king [Re: kdcarman] #759073
06/18/13 09:44 PM
06/18/13 09:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Cab is the man


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