who is the six pack king

I'm sure anyone with a six pack with Holley 2300's will tell you that starting after sitting a while is hard. The fuel drains out of the bowl and it takes some cranking to build up fuel.

By running up the rpms in the garage with the air cleaner off?

Here you go Matt, just click on the word "attachment" to inlarge

Mike

....continued

thank you i did all of that. can you tell me what should the vacuume be at the port for the secondaries and i still would like to know the tipical rpms that they open

thanks

Colt 45 works every time if I am tuning or drinking.

You will have little or no vacumn at the port on the center carb at idle. The vacumn that operates the end carbs is generated by airflow through the venturi's of the center, under load. The end carbs have a kill bleed that leaks some of this vac to regulate how fast the ends open. Look into the pass side venturi of an end carb and you will see a tiny hole in the side of the venturi, very close to the booster level. If you want to check operation of the ends, get a Mity Mite hand vac pump, hook it to each individual end carb, cover the kill bleed hole with your finger, and pump it to see if it works.

I AM THE PUMPKIN KING!!!!!!!!!



Oh wait you said six pack king

...since I have a 6 pack intake .. that is ported and welded-OUT to max-wedge heads ......

I beez 'da King-o-6-Pack ! .... (and it is ferr-sail BTW)

No King here, just having fun with six packs. I think many are asking your needs and what you expect, my end carbs flip open like a pit bull out of the gate 3k area. Ive the lightest spring and then cut it a bit. Alot of work in them though..

What is your rpm area (stock intake)? my cam likes 7600 and with a modified intake its semi easy.

If all else fails put a plate kit on it, six packs seems to like spray and its fun.

I am no expert that's for sure. I found my new setup lean when I installed it and tested a few different springs for the outter carbs. Put some stiffer springs in it to minmize any bogg when they open. I can wing the throttle and see mine open for a split second sitting there.

Like what was mentioned, bolting on the carbs needs to be done carefully to eliminate binding. It's easy to just bolt them on and have binding. Good luck with your car, plenty of people here who can help.

thank you all for helping out. if i am driving the car should i feel a major boost when they kick in or is it just a so so thing? i'm not one to get on it too hard im a bit of a puss, i only take it up to 6,000 not much more, or do i need to give it more?


And what is a pumpkin king?

Here is a guide to tune six packs. It's not everything but gets you close enough.

Quality cap rotor, wires and plugs that are not too hot or cold in heat range.
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged
Make sure that your ignition advance curve is such that you can run at 15 - 18 deg advance at idle. This is important.
Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set
A good quality vacuum gage is required, a digital tach if you have that as well.
Connect vac gauge to manifold vacuum source.

Outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT

64 jets in ctr carb

If you have new carbs(untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb

Black springs in the secondaries
You must know what power valve is in the ctr carb. Typically a 6.5

The slotted screw on top of the float adjuster, is just a lock screw, you can remove it for now, the 5/8" nut is the adjuster/needle seat nut, rotating it counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it
Make small 1/2 turns & let the car run a 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off
check the fuel in the clear site window, at the bottom on the ctr carb and up to half the window the front and rear carbs,

After you set the fuel level in all 3 carbs, reset the idle on the center carb


Floats are adjusted properly
Ctr carb bottom of the sight hole
end carbs a very slight trickle out the sight hole

Starting point for Jets. center 65, front 78, rear 80. If the weather gets cold you might want to increase that to center 66, front 80, rear 82

Check the center carb and be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [carb would have to be off the car to see this]
You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates.
If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.

Start car, set idle to 1000 rpm and allow engine to reach operating temp. 195 degree thermostat required or fuel will puddle in the intake. This is a must.

If the car won’t idle: Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating?
This must be correct this before proceeding If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed. Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12 degrees BTDC.
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 15-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-112 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-12 BTDC
center carb idle mixture screws out ccw 1.5 turns

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb. Using a good vacuum gage adj mixture to highest reading of vacuum. If you do not have control over the idle mixture you have issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding. Issues such as poor intake sealing, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900
Drive car. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean, no power.

Most times you are over jetted.... Do not over jet!

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 15 degrees BTDC.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj mixture to highest reading of vacuum.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900

How do you know when you are "there”?
You should be able to idle most cars down to 800-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp. You do not smell raw gas in the exhaust. The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. The spark plugs are clean. The car starts runs and drives smoothly when cold. The car restarts immediately when hot without touching the throttle. When you whack the throttle from an idle the engine immediately returns to idle.

Note: If your initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically you need to modify the advance curve so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

When you get on it fast, it should be a "major" boost!!!
Even stock, mine was a huge "kick" in the aZZ when the end carbs come in. If you're not getting that, then there is something with the end spring rate, something sticking, or in one instance I saw recently....the base gaskets on the end carbs were put on backwards...which stops the throttle plates from opening!!!
Tom Quad just posted some guidelines...from my own experience, he's bang on ...except watch that fuel level in the end carbs.....trickling out the sight plug may be a little high. Mine will flood slightly when set like that. But every set up will be a bit different, so start tunin'

There is no typical RPM they open at, and, as said, you will not get them to open with your head leaning in over the fender.

Yes they do...


I dont understand that comment, mine do just with blipping the throttle 7k plus, no problem, no bog with or without spray..and still easy to drive, but im only concerned about one thing WOT.

This is bumping the 7k chip it likes the 7600 chip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--GfJyk_GaA

The end carbs will NOT open without a load on the engine.

yes they can.. 7k off idle bump, no issues

The end carbs will NOT open without a load on the engine. Umm mine do


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0FlEqfesF8

I guess it depends what your looking to do

I need a new tip in my wideband...

Alot of good OLD info, I would hate to see a youngster continue in this line of thinking that there are limits and impossible goals when working with six pack carbs when certain goals are easily obtainable.

I clearly can debunk 3 (posted vids of two of them) of the old school "YOU CANT DO THIS" ways of thinking.

No dis. meant to anyone who posted but advancements and progress dont get made on old tech, but its a good start, things progress and if more out of the box thinking was done vs copy and paste articles maybe some of the old myths could be put to rest.

....I remember Goody talking about reving up his cuda at a red light and bending some stuff that should'nt be bent....I dont think he'll be caught doing that again.. ... I've seen alot of posts where guys with stock or close to it engines claim the 6-bbl wont open when the throttle is free reved....Especially a SB....A stroker or modified engine is an apples to oranges comparison on how the 6 pack will operate...Get the car out on the road under a load and stab the throttle then see what happens...If it doe'snt set you back in the seat something needs attention..

Not everyone is like you to free spin their engine to 7k plus without a load on it , ask the youngsters that did it and bent valves ...



Yep, true, However im far from a youngster, but far from old.

Use good parts and check and recheck on assembly. Build to your needs, I do and have no issues.

But as far as the six packs go, I see nothing set in stone on how far you can take them and to propagate old info does not help in the progression of six pack systems but just adds fodder to the brand X mags who say they are old, out dated and fall short of certain performance standards.

No disrespect meant to any of the posters, most are far smarter then me....I just look at things differently and know what has worked for me.

Its good to see there is still so much love for the six pack systems that so many are willing to deal with the small quirks involved with running them

The six pack set up can definitely be finicky....especially with using them on a all-out stroker like I did. Constant tuning etc until I got it right (well..at least right in my opinion!) Done right, Six Packs rock!
They CAN be tuned....not like the wife...which NO amount of TUNING seems to have any effect!!

The car is doing pretty good but stumbles on acceleration could this be do to wron pump cam?

it starts off good if i pump the gas a bit

it should sound like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxm-NTSOc1s&feature=related

I think the "theory of operation" needs to be reviewed

A six pak engine runs on the center carb and idles on all 3. The center carb is 450 cfm which means it has plenty of flow up till about 4000 rpm where the secondaries come in and take care of the work. The idles circuit in the outboards is always contributing air and fuel to the mix.

The center carb needs to be set up properly first and then the secondaries dialed in.
Whacking the throttle at idle to get the secondaries to open is pointless and useless as it indicates nothing other than a lack of understanding. Black springs in the secondaries is not a misprint, but good advice, if you have not tried the advice I suggest you do.

A properly tuned six pak will out run anything other than a properly tuned heeemi [sic] and then it better had be a stout heeemi as i have beat up more than several of the manly heemis with a six pak over the years.


This is not rocket science and the document provided is culminated from lots of peoples input.
Print the document and go tune your cars and please report back.

im not smashing it out of a idle just trying to go easy and it still stumbles. should i change the acc pump cam?

Does it stumble before it starts to really move? If so, def. take a good look at the accelerator pump. I had to make my own cam on the AAR to get it to come off the line clean. Also I do not agree with the heavy springs in the secondaries. I put the second lightest they make in and tune it from bogging from there. The more air the merrier.

Promax makes some great parts that makes tuning six packs much easier. The ability to put jets in the outboard carbs and to change idle settings on outboards without a trick screwdriver is priceless.

The ProMax billet baseplate for the rear is almost a requirement for any six pack engine with a healthy mix of speed equipment...unless you enjoy pulling the rear one on and off over and over until you get it to idle right. Which spring you use in the outboards will be determined by the car's weight, gear ratio and tranny, but the second lightest is an ideal starting point. Don't forget, it's been said over and over, the outboards were generally lean in stock condition so you'll need to drill the metering plates or add the plates that allow for jets.

Good luck and happy tuning.

Maybe the car needs some other basic tuning like timing adjustments. What is your intial and total timing at? Also is the vacuum line connected to the right port and are they free of cracks? Also the vacuum chambers have small ports where a gasket is used to seal, maybe they are loose or missing, try tightening them.You should look at the diaphragms, maybe they are old or torn. You should definately feel them kick in when you get on it.

I build and tune a lot of six pack engines. Some good info here. What I find most amusing is how people "micromanage" the system. Try to avoid throwing a bunch of parts at it. More often than not, people wind up making the car run worse than if the carbs were left completely alone.

The outboard screws are not a mystery. Takes only a few minutes to dial it in. If you want to use the Promax base, that is fine, however you must properly ream the throttle shaft bore or you will get a hanging of the butterflys. You might not experience it when the engine is cold but as soon as it warms up they tend to bind.

FYI, Ed Cook's six pack A12 car(runs high tens @127MPH on G70 bias @ 3,900#), has carbs that are almost stock. i built the motor and did all the tuning on the car and found NO advantage with some real tricked out carbs. I am still working on the modded carbs, but at this point, the stockers are getting the nod!

MB

Hello Tom Quad,

I've just rebuilt my sixpack and reinstalled -- been off for about past 15 yrs as a "weight saver" (only reason is 60 lbs sixpack vs 30 lbs LD340/750 3310) for my Solo II autocross events (Challenger T/A, hemi-orange/black car). I'm now back into road course "touring/hi-speed lapping" and I've decided to use the sixpack setup again. I'll be the "Official Pace Car" at Elkhart Lk, WIS., Road America track this wknd Aug 14/15... 12 total races to lead the pack! Should be exciting and fun!!!

Car won't run!!! Won't idle; front carb spits lots fuel after shutoff (difficulty adjusting front float); have clear site plugs.

6.5 PV, 64 jets, non-adjsble f/r base plates. 50cc pump.

Where excatly do I hook up the vacuum gage? Any other help? How can I at least get it to run for setting the idle, etc? I want to report good news!!!

Mopar Mitch Lelito
cell 847-682-0807 anytime (Chgo area)

just more info.

http://sixpacksixbbl.homestead.com/mrsixpack.html

Thanks for the extra info.

Last night I worked with a Mopar friend/racer (Greg Bosak) and we got it running, some cracking of exhaust sounds, but still idles too rough. timing is 34 total, 12 btdc w/o vacuum hookup. Vacuum is 13, so the 65 PV should be OK (??). We pulled the plugs and saw they are fouled (64 jets); will put 62 jets in and new plugs/cap/rotor tonight. I do have another 340 center carb (4292) which I may rebuild and see if that makes any difference.

I've got to get it running near perfect as I'm the Pace Car for Elkhart Lk. Road America this wknd!!!. IF the carbs/plugs/cap/rotor doesn't make any difference, I'll have to put back my LD340/Carter 625 Comp Series setup Thursday night/Friday... have to leave early Sat monrng.

Mitch
cell 847-682-0807

UPDATE -- worked Thursday eve on getting the floats set , vacuum observed and idle, mixture screws adjusted, 34/12 timing, about 1000 rpm final idle. But, when taken out for test drive, it stumbled, stalled. If i'd floor it, it would haul A..! Couldn't drive it reliably, so I got home and removed the 6pack setup and am installing my LD340/carter 625 AFB again. What a dissappointment I have... I will work again on the sixpack as I want it back on and running perfectly... I'll have more time after this wknd is over from Road America.

To get a reasonably high vacuum (13), I ended up with the metering screws set about 2 full turns out. Isn't that too much? I have 62 jets in the center, and also light springs in outbourd vacuum pods. And, I used the clear see-thru plugs on the bowls (a little tricky to get used to... maybe I should've pulled them out to positively confirm).

Any suggestions?
cell 847-682-0807

Mitch
I just saw your posts
Sorry I was too late to help immediately

Timing need to come up to 15 btdc
I think there is a vacuum leak and a leaky needle seat on the front carb

I have been busy typing
This is not the final edition, but close enough for now

Here is a guide to tune six packs for street engines. Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block

Remember six pak engines run on the center carb and idle on all 3
The car must idle and run like a normal car before attempting any secondary action or wide open throttle passes.

A Good ignition system is required., MSD, Mallory or FBO mopar box, NO orange boxes or chrome boxes unless you know for sure it is early 80’s vintage. Anything made after 1988 is questionable.

Quality distributor cap & rotor
High quality spark plug wires like Firecore 50s
Spark plugs of the proper heat range.

Vacuum adv distributor
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary
THIS IS IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb

Make sure the timing is 15 - 18 deg btdc [advance] at idle. THIS IS IMPORTANT
Set the timing marks at 15 btdc and align the rotor with the cap-this is one reason the phasing was checked.

Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set.
A good quality vacuum gage is required,
Connect vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum source.

ATTENTION -195 degree thermostat- ATTENTION
THIS IS IMPORTANT
If you run a lower temp thermostat, raw fuel will collect in the intake
That fuel then burns off in the cruise mode.
Unless you have a wideband air fuel meter you will not see this happening, but you will have problems getting it to idle and see the mixture go leaner in the cruise mode.

The heat crossover should be blocked on big & small blocks
Note: in temps below 40 degree it will take a good while to get the car warmed up. Block heaters will eliminate the long warm ups.

Set the outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be careful when seating the idle screws to set them, gently is the word
Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read

Set the center carb idle adjustment screws at 1.5 turns out [ccw] THIS IS IMPORTANT

Check the center carb and be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [carb would have to be off the car to see this] You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates. If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.
If you have new carbs(untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb & a 6.5hg power valve The outboards will have the lead plugs covering the idle adj screws.

Starting point for center carb jetting stock 340 use 62’s, highly modified or stroker use 64’s,
Leave the outboards alone for now unless you have the jetable metering plates, if so read their instructions and follow them
You must know what power valve is in the center carb. Typically a 6.5

Fuel level adjustment THIS IS IMPORTANT, this is best done idling at 1000-1200 rpm
The slotted screw on top of the needle n seat is just a lock screw,
To adj the float level loosen the lock screw to rotate the seat nut,
Turning the adjuster nut counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it
Make only small 1/2 turns.
You must let the car run a 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off before rechecking level
Center carb the fuel level is at the bottom of the sight plug hole
Secondaries it is just starting to come over the bottom of the sight plug hole
This is critical so get it right.

Set idle to 950 rpm and allow engine to reach operating temp.

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required or fuel will puddle in the intake. .

If the car won’t idle: Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating? If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed.
Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum so use a 2.5 power valve.

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12-14 degrees BTDC.
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 16-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-114 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-14 BTDC

Re-Set the idle rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb. Using a good vacuum gage adj center carb mixture to highest reading of vacuum. If you do not have control over the idle mixture you have issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding.

Typically if you have the center carb idle mixture screws between 1 to 2 turns ccw
you do not have to adjust the outboard idle mixture any further. Starting with the front carb, adj the mixture screws one at a time 1/16th turn ccw, after turning each screw wait and see what the engine vacuum and rpm do. Obviously if you have a wideband a-f gauge you will see what is happening.

Beware of issues such as poor intake sealing, carb gaskets backwards, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900

Drive car like a normal person, no wide open throttle. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean as you will have no power.

Most times you are over jetted.... Do not over jet!
Over jetted carbs will have poor idle control.

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 15 degrees BTDC.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj each mixture screw to highest reading of vacuum. If you have a wideband afr meter set to 14.7

Recheck idle rpm and set to 850

How do you know when you are "there”?
The car will idle at 700-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp.
There is no smell of raw gas in the exhaust.
The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. Open a carb and look in
The spark plugs are clean.
The engine when cold starts easily, runs and drives smoothly from the get go.
The engine when hot restarts immediately without touching the throttle.
When the engine is rev’d and the throttle released it immediately returns to idle.

OK if you made it this far it’s time for the Secondaries

The reason you put the black spring is to delay the opening of the secondaries until the engine is ready for it. The engine will run fine on just the center carb till at least 3000 rpm. The air fuel mixture spikes lean when the secondaries open, but at higher rpms this is transparent and has no affect on performance. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless, but very apparent and usually scary to the uninitiated.

The long vacuum hoses for the outboard carbs need to be exactly the same length.

Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum

The best way to dial in the secondary air fuel ratio is with a wide band air fuel meter.
A fine tuned seatofthepantsometer and spark plug reading will work for the more experienced

If you made it this far and the car is bogging when the six pak opens you need to go back and recheck starting at the top.

Notes:

If the initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically the advance curve will need to be modified so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Automatic cars with too tight of a converter will cause significant idle rpm drops when in drive, the car will not run at it’s full potential so be sure to use the correct converter for the application.

Some cars like staggered jetting.

Tomquad,
Alot of good info there. I have been playing with my six pack all summer since I put the new engine in it. Mine did not like the black springs at all. I am down to the yellow springs right now. It seems to like those the best. Very heavy B-Body, loaded with options, weighs 4490 with a 1/4 tank of gas. Any other springs & it bogs or actually feels like it was surging.
I do not have a 195 degree t-stat. Never thought of that. I think I have a 160 degree in it now. No matter what changes or adjustments I make it doesn't like to idle unless I two foot it. It seems to like 18-20 degrees BTDC of timing the best.
I do only have 6 to 7 inches of vaccuum with this cam. Its a Comp Xtreme Energy .519/.521 on a 110, adv 294/306, @ .050 250/256. The engine was decked, squared, balanced, blueprinted & heads milled & comes in at a true 10.5:1.
I have my outers higher than the sight hole & the center just to where it trickles out. Car runs great & pulls hard, just won't idle. I am to the point where I was thinking of drilling 1/8" holes in the center throttle blades to get more air???