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too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
#723406
06/13/10 09:27 PM
06/13/10 09:27 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 281
las vegas
70challenger408
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 281
las vegas
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need some opinions guys. During the winter, I lost 2 cam lobes on my racer brown hydraulic cam(242@.050 543 int/510 ex). decided to rebuild with a solid roller cam this time. I called COMP CAMS, and they sold me grind 20-740-9(248/254@050, 616 int/582 ex 110 LSA. I also changed the intake to a victor 340, and had the dynamic converter reworked to 4200 stall(was 3800). long story short, took it to the track, and lost 1 full second. best with old motor was 12.7 @105mph. so, have been told too much cam is the fault. sorry, car is 1970 challenger, 3800# 408Ci, oob indybrock heads, 10.7cr, 727 and 3.55 rear gears. help me oput here guys. 
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723407
06/13/10 09:31 PM
06/13/10 09:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
70AARcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
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you have to start with the basic..
was the cam degreed? advanced?
timing set correctly?
Last edited by 70AARcuda; 06/13/10 09:32 PM.
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723408
06/13/10 09:34 PM
06/13/10 09:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
dennismopar73
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
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i had to reread that 2 x full sec?? hard to believe racer brown really good stuff thats not the total reason has to be something going on not enough info say fuel related best guess right now 
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723410
06/13/10 09:39 PM
06/13/10 09:39 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Its not really that big... but with the gear you have it might be a touch slow reving... give us the whole low down on your engine... do your heads have any port work done on them... need info... also like was asked.. did you degree it 
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: forphorty]
#723412
06/13/10 09:41 PM
06/13/10 09:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
dennismopar73
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: S/ST 3040]
#723418
06/13/10 09:59 PM
06/13/10 09:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
dennismopar73
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
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unless it was retarded bad those wouldn t do it unless they were all bad??@@ something hes not telling  
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723419
06/13/10 10:01 PM
06/13/10 10:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
dennismopar73
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
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there ya go  now theres some really good info mmmm my first was ? ? 
Last edited by dennismopar73; 06/13/10 10:02 PM.
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723420
06/13/10 10:01 PM
06/13/10 10:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,616
Kissimmee Fl.
dusturbd340W5
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,616
Kissimmee Fl.
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1st problem really need to degree the cam.
The cam that is in my motor right now when I put it in strait up and then checked it with a degree wheel it was off 6 degrees.
70 duster full chassis super pro 416 CNC Indybrock heads 727 w/brake
best so far 1.212 60 6.219 in 1/8 at 110.88 9.768 at 137.81 1/4
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723423
06/13/10 10:09 PM
06/13/10 10:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
ok mr p-body, the engine is a 408 10.7:1CR
heads are oob IndyBrock(reworked like TA heads with pushrods moved over) no porting done. has 1.6 roller rockers on intake, and 1.5 exhaust. intake is a port matched victor 340 topped with BG 750 mighty demon. ignition is a MSD 6a firing a stock distibutor(recurved by don gould at 4secondsflat.com. Initial timing at 20deg advance, with 34 total at 3000rpm. still have stock jetting in carb. fuelpump is a holley hp150 billet pump. I think the pump may be a problem(flow tested after the regulator, an d found 31 secounds to pump 2 gallons.) ohh-cam was not degee'd-did not have the means at the time-installed strait up. did notice that the plugs were white, and the color on the ground strap started close to the threads---too lean?????
Ok next ... give us the time slip numbers(all of them)
need to find out where its bad at.... you didnt degree
it in so that could be a MAJOR problem... you really
dont know where its at... and its lean from what you
said.... you have plenty of supply with the 2 gal
at 31 sec... also did you flash the converter or is
that the number it was suppose to be... if your cam
is way off you wont make the torque to work the
converter
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: dennismopar73]
#723424
06/13/10 10:11 PM
06/13/10 10:11 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
straight up will run!!
wont kill a full sec
Straight up dont mean nothing... what happens if the
dots are off... is it still straight up.... NOT
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723425
06/13/10 10:15 PM
06/13/10 10:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
dennismopar73
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
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with the combo i see a little tinkering i think you could very well see 11 sec car there?? but i see you drive it alot?? so the 355 is a great gear i ran 391 for years on the street, i wasnt trying to be rude so looks like you have this in hand have a  
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#723428
06/13/10 10:27 PM
06/13/10 10:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
dennismopar73
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
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never seen a comp cam way off run several checked all with degree wheel i always check mine i have seen one that was WAY out there wasnt a comp ,, used to be a guy live here who worked at comp learned alot about cams from him done alot of work with the ss guys back in the day more problems with gears and chains than any cams by the way
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: dennismopar73]
#723429
06/13/10 10:35 PM
06/13/10 10:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
never seen a comp cam way off
run several checked all with degree wheel
i always check mine
i have seen one that was WAY out there wasnt a comp ,,
used to be a guy live here who worked at comp
learned alot about cams from him done alot of work with the ss guys back in the day
more problems with gears and chains than any cams by the way
I had one that the key way in the cam was cut 29*
off so if you lined up the dots it CRASHED big time,
without degreeing the cam it CANT BE SAID its straight
up or not... of course you can guess all you want
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: dennismopar73]
#723430
06/13/10 11:55 PM
06/13/10 11:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
never seen a comp cam way off
I have... the one I just pulled out of my Challenger's engine had to be installed +8 on the gear set to actually end up +3 on the ICL (i.e. 5 degrees retarded).
I installed & mapped the profiles of that Comp, an UltraDyne, a Bullet and a Lazer in my engine while it was still on the stand and the ONLY cam that was ground correctly as far as "straight up" phasing was the Lazer. The Bullet was the worst and the the Comp and the UltraDyne were about equally off, but in opposite directions.
Moral: DEGREE IT.
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723433
06/14/10 12:27 AM
06/14/10 12:27 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 740
WA
JD Dart
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 740
WA
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So with you foot braking it, it will hold at 3000 rpm without moving the car? From the time slip it looks real lazy  make sure you get that cam degree like every one has said I've put a number of those cams in even with a 3800 stall they would 60' 1.5's in a Dakota truck.
best so far 8.53 @ 158.59 MPH 60'1.240
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723435
06/14/10 12:34 AM
06/14/10 12:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
70AARcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
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couple of questions...
what time of year was that you ran it compared to this year...the vegas heat can slow a car down almost .5 tenths...
I have all the tools necessary to degree in a cam...except it is more of a PIA with heads on..
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723437
06/14/10 07:48 AM
06/14/10 07:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,688
W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,688
W. Kentucky
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Quote:
et-13.98
mph-98.07
trapped at 6800rpm(if I remember right).
any useful thoughts????
What size tire? 6800 rpm @ 98 mph, I'd be looking at my converter or transmission. BYW it should be very strong with that cam .
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723438
06/14/10 08:37 AM
06/14/10 08:37 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
S/ST 3040
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
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I'd really like to know what intake you took off......I'd guess a Performer or similar? What I see is you went 2 different directions with the car...... Single plane intake on an engine that probably makes peak power at 5300 RPM. Cam is bigger, probably not detrimental to the combination but, not degreeing it in is a BIG no no. Then you went from 3.91 to a 3.55 gear........2 directions this case. I would attribute .5 second to not spending time tuning at the track. I'm not going to bust you up but, you changed the engine to move the power up in RPM and the rear end to lower it. That's just what I'm seeing.
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723440
06/14/10 10:12 AM
06/14/10 10:12 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,178
Indy
FlyFish
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,178
Indy
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Something is WAY off there. I have the same cam in a very similar combo…410 stroker, 10.8 comp, ported eddys, Air-gap, 750dp, 4.10 gear…only mine runs 6.90’s @ 98mph in the 1/8 with a 1.49 60’. In the heat (90°F with lots-O-humidity) my car only slowed to a 7.08 @ 97mph. This cam make a lot of torque, so I doubt your gears are hurting you that much. IMO, if you used the spring recommended by comp (914-16) then that may be part of your problem right there…those springs are too light. I’m running comp 939-16 installed @ 1.85, which gives ~ 190 lbs on the seat & ~460 lbs open. You should probably use more spring than what I have, I’m just limited due to my rockers.
67 Barracuda street car, 408, e85, 1.38 60', 6.44 @105.9 in the 1/8 mile, 10.19 @130.5 in the 1/4...so far....
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723441
06/14/10 10:16 AM
06/14/10 10:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,024
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,024
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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The first thing you need to do is find out if all cylinders are sealing, and the cranking compression. If the cranking compression is even, follow with a leak down test. You want good ring seal or all else is a waste of time.
Theses steps well tell the story of roughly where the cam is, and if the wiped lobes took out the rings.
Next, find a way to check the air fuel ratio. You need to know if you are anywhere close. Jet as needed.
I highly recommend a chassis dyno session to be certain your ignition and fuel ratio get dialed in and have no problems.
Next, test the converter to see just how high it will flash once the motor is up and running strong. If your converter will flash past torque peak, the gears will have significantly less impact. If you have too little stall, they will kill you.
Too little stall to me with this combo would mean anything less than about 4400+ rpm.
If you get stuck anywhere along the line diagnosing this, just stay at looking for a way to get the info you need. Without doing this step by step, you are just stabbing in the dark.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723442
06/14/10 10:20 AM
06/14/10 10:20 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
yes springs were replaced with matching springs recommended by COMP.
here are the 1/4 info you requested mr p-body
r/t-.656
60'-2.123
330-5.88
1/8-8.99
mph-79.30
1000-11.6876
et-13.98
mph-98.07
can't find previous best slip, but i know it was 12.7 @105mph
I was foot braking it-launch @3000rpm, small wheel spin, and shifted at 6500rpm-trapped at 6800rpm(if I remember right).
any useful thoughts????
Looks like most of the problem is the low end...
like its lacking torque to get it rolling... I would
degree the cam in FIRST and add a few degrees of
advance for the heavy car... also seems like a lot
of rpm for your gear
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: gregsdart]
#723443
06/14/10 10:28 AM
06/14/10 10:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,024
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,024
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Using a cam/running compression calculator, you should have about 200 pounds cranking compression if the cam is set at 104 degrees. That will run on 93 octane, or should. The dual plane might very well be a better choice here as well, as most don't loose ground to a single plane intake till after 5000 rpm. Remember that a LOT of time is required to get past 5000 rpm after the launch, and on each gear change. That is why a real loose converter is needed for a single plane.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 70challenger408]
#723444
06/14/10 11:10 AM
06/14/10 11:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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My gut tells me the cam is retarded when extra advance would get you going. From the 1/8 to 1/4 it pulled pretty good.
At 6700 I would assume you were still in second gear
98 would be about the right speed with 3.55 gears and a 27 inch tire.
OR you have 50% converter slip?? or you were trapping at 4600??
Last edited by Dodgem; 06/14/10 11:19 AM.
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#723446
06/14/10 11:29 AM
06/14/10 11:29 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
dennismopar73
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
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 6800 traps diff not right for that et or speed now 2.1 60 ?? lot of spin maybe but its slow everywhere fuel del somewhere , tranny problem for sure was it full of fluid?? dumb question ,, had to ask? getting full throttle ?? 3 bagger
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: dennismopar73]
#723447
06/14/10 04:43 PM
06/14/10 04:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
70AARcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
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60' time is terrible...street tires??
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: 68DART360]
#723451
06/14/10 08:04 PM
06/14/10 08:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I did not see it mentioned but I would first check to see that you have the throttle plates open all the way when you have the gas pedal to the floor. It will kill et from start to finish. Although most of the other comments about degreeing the cam and so on are things that should also be checked. Good luck!
You would be surprised at how much the blades can be
closed before it really has ant effect on the ET...
I tried slowing my car down to 10.0 and I am at a little
less than 1/2 throttle and without short shifting
it would only slow it about .6 ... thats from 9.0
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: moparmanjames]
#723453
06/14/10 10:47 PM
06/14/10 10:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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In all fairness your car is pretty light compared to his Mr.P I think they screwed up his converter as well, 6800 rpm with a 3.55 gear running only 98 mph? Plus, the cam isn't that big compared to that healthy hydraulic that was in it. I agree with you that it needs to be degreed though. I would degree the cam and see if you can borrow a decent converter from some cool guy in Vegas 
I would believe there is a conv or trans slipping
issue, thats why I said that earier
Yes I know that weight will have a factor with the
carb not being open but guys really think if its a
1/8" from being full open its going to make a difference
it wont... just went through this a few weeks ago
with a heavy type car... didnt do diddiley... but
if it were closed enough it will kill torque(acts
like a small carb)
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#723454
06/14/10 10:53 PM
06/14/10 10:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
moparmanjames
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
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Quote:
In all fairness your car is pretty light compared to his Mr.P
I think they screwed up his converter as well, 6800 rpm with a 3.55 gear running only 98 mph?
Plus, the cam isn't that big compared to that healthy hydraulic that was in it. I agree with you that it needs to be degreed though.
I would degree the cam and see if you can borrow a decent converter from some cool guy in Vegas
I would believe there is a conv or trans slipping
issue, thats why I said that earier
Yes I know that weight will have a factor with the
carb not being open but guys really think if its a
1/8" from being full open its going to make a difference
it wont... just went through this a few weeks ago
with a heavy type car... didnt do diddiley... but
if it were closed enough it will kill torque(acts
like a small carb)
I agree and that brings up another good point, if you are running a carb that is already a bit small then moving the throttle position will have a greater effect than on the bigger carbs like dominators.
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#723457
06/14/10 11:43 PM
06/14/10 11:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
moparmanjames
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
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Quote:
I agree and that brings up another good point, if you are running a carb that is already a bit small then moving the throttle position will have a greater effect than on the bigger carbs like dominators.
The carb I was playing with a couple of weeks ago
was a 850
I would think that closing the throttle plates would decrease the CFM but raise the velocity, kind of like putting a smaller carb on to get better low end response, but it will suffer on the big end.
I had a nice 650 DP that my friend borrowed for his 10:1 427 chevy and it ran 11.60 with a 1.49 60. We ultimately switched to an 850 and it went 11.47 with a 1.51 60.
The car weighed 3400 lbs.
So basically you are correct, it takes alot of throttle plate movement to knock off a full second of ET no matter what the car weighs lol.
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Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
[Re: Labratt]
#723458
06/14/10 11:50 PM
06/14/10 11:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Mike,are you referring to the 850 on the GTX not opening all the way at the track? 
Yeah that was one... but my bubby stopped by with his
truck also with some carb issues
Yes the smaller carb has a better low end response but
it will suffer on the big end
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