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too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!!
Posted By: 70challenger408
too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:27 AM
need some opinions guys. During the winter, I lost 2 cam lobes on my racer brown hydraulic cam(242@.050 543 int/510 ex). decided to rebuild with a solid roller cam this time. I called COMP CAMS, and they sold me grind 20-740-9(248/254@050, 616 int/582 ex 110 LSA. I also changed the intake to a victor 340, and had the dynamic converter reworked to 4200 stall(was 3800). long story short, took it to the track, and lost 1 full second. best with old motor was 12.7 @105mph. so, have been told too much cam is the fault. sorry, car is 1970 challenger, 3800#
408Ci, oob indybrock heads, 10.7cr, 727 and 3.55 rear gears. help me oput here guys.
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:31 AM
you have to start with the basic..
was the cam degreed? advanced?
timing set correctly?
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:34 AM
i had to reread that 2 x
full sec??
hard to believe
racer brown really good stuff
thats not the total reason has to be
something going on
not enough info
say fuel related best guess right now
Posted By: forphorty
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:39 AM
What ever the old intake was, put it back on and eliminate that as a variable.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:39 AM
Its not really that big... but with the gear you have
it might be a touch slow reving... give us the whole
low down on your engine... do your heads have any port
work done on them... need info... also like was asked..
did you degree it
Posted By: bobby66
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:41 AM
How many passes with the new set-up? It might take awhile to get timing, jetting and shift points worked out.
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:41 AM
NOT THE INTAKE
Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:43 AM
I would start with the gears....3.55's???
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:45 AM
unless it retarted bad cant see a full sec
sure he didnt put the bad cam back in?? hahah
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:48 AM
NOT THE GEARS
comon guys
he has not given enough info to make even a good guess
Posted By: S/ST 3040
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:56 AM
Let's see............
The intake, camshaft and converter was changed. What could it be?
Posted By: 70challenger408
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:58 AM
ok mr p-body, the engine is a 408 10.7:1CR
heads are oob IndyBrock(reworked like TA heads with pushrods moved over) no porting done. has 1.6 roller rockers on intake, and 1.5 exhaust. intake is a port matched victor 340 topped with BG 750 mighty demon. ignition is a MSD 6a firing a stock distibutor(recurved by don gould at 4secondsflat.com. Initial timing at 20deg advance, with 34 total at 3000rpm. still have stock jetting in carb. fuelpump is a holley hp150 billet pump. I think the pump may be a problem(flow tested after the regulator, an d found 31 secounds to pump 2 gallons.) ohh-cam was not degee'd-did not have the means at the time-installed strait up. did notice that the plugs were white, and the color on the ground strap started close to the threads---too lean?????
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:59 AM
unless it was retarded bad
those wouldn t do it
unless they were all bad??@@
something hes not telling
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:01 AM
there ya go
now theres some really good info
mmmm my first was ? ?
Posted By: dusturbd340W5
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:01 AM
1st problem really need to degree the cam.
The cam that is in my motor right now when I put it in strait up and then checked it with a degree wheel it was off 6 degrees.
Posted By: 70challenger408
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:02 AM
was running 3.91's, but I drive it to the track, and the rpm's were up there. I changed to the 3.55's, and getting to the track was easier, and my 1/4 times did not suffer. woul,d a change in gears help too big a cam????? come on guys, I am learning here, if I wanted to take crap, I would talk to the wife!!!!!!!
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:07 AM
straight up will run!!
wont kill a full sec
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:09 AM
Quote:
ok mr p-body, the engine is a 408 10.7:1CR
heads are oob IndyBrock(reworked like TA heads with pushrods moved over) no porting done. has 1.6 roller rockers on intake, and 1.5 exhaust. intake is a port matched victor 340 topped with BG 750 mighty demon. ignition is a MSD 6a firing a stock distibutor(recurved by don gould at 4secondsflat.com. Initial timing at 20deg advance, with 34 total at 3000rpm. still have stock jetting in carb. fuelpump is a holley hp150 billet pump. I think the pump may be a problem(flow tested after the regulator, an d found 31 secounds to pump 2 gallons.) ohh-cam was not degee'd-did not have the means at the time-installed strait up. did notice that the plugs were white, and the color on the ground strap started close to the threads---too lean?????
Ok next ... give us the time slip numbers(all of them)
need to find out where its bad at.... you didnt degree
it in so that could be a MAJOR problem... you really
dont know where its at... and its lean from what you
said.... you have plenty of supply with the 2 gal
at 31 sec... also did you flash the converter or is
that the number it was suppose to be... if your cam
is way off you wont make the torque to work the
converter
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:11 AM
Quote:
straight up will run!!
wont kill a full sec
Straight up dont mean nothing... what happens if the
dots are off... is it still straight up.... NOT
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:15 AM
with the combo i see
a little tinkering i think you could very well see 11 sec car there??
but i see you drive it alot??
so the 355 is a great gear
i ran 391 for years on the street,
i wasnt trying to be rude
so looks like you have this in hand
have a
Posted By: jamesc
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:18 AM
not that it's your problem or a contributing factor but unless i missed it you make no mention of valve springs and/or changing them to accommodate a roller cam.
Posted By: Hemiroid
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:26 AM
Not really too hard to figure out. You have a 3800# car with a small block, a big open plenum single plane, a set of 3.55 gears, relatively low compression with aluminum heads. The cam hasn't been degreed and who knows what else hasn't been done?
I'd start by degreeing the cam, and then changing the rear gear. As Mr.P mentioned, has a stall test been done on the converter? Putting a little more arm in a small block doesn't turn it into a big block. You may have gotten away with these things with a stroked BB, but not with a small block. I'm sure with a little tuning and changing a few things it will perform like you want it to. Just be patient, it will come around.
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:27 AM
never seen a comp cam way off
run several checked all with degree wheel
i always check mine
i have seen one that was WAY out there wasnt a comp ,,
used to be a guy live here who worked at comp
learned alot about cams from him done alot of work with the ss guys back in the day
more problems with gears and chains than any cams by the way
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:35 AM
Quote:
never seen a comp cam way off
run several checked all with degree wheel
i always check mine
i have seen one that was WAY out there wasnt a comp ,,
used to be a guy live here who worked at comp
learned alot about cams from him done alot of work with the ss guys back in the day
more problems with gears and chains than any cams by the way
I had one that the key way in the cam was cut 29*
off so if you lined up the dots it CRASHED big time,
without degreeing the cam it CANT BE SAID its straight
up or not... of course you can guess all you want
Posted By: BradH
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 03:55 AM
Quote:
never seen a comp cam way off
I have... the one I just pulled out of my Challenger's engine had to be installed +8 on the gear set to actually end up +3 on the ICL (i.e. 5 degrees retarded).
I installed & mapped the profiles of that Comp, an UltraDyne, a Bullet and a Lazer in my engine while it was still on the stand and the ONLY cam that was ground correctly as far as "straight up" phasing was the Lazer. The Bullet was the worst and the the Comp and the UltraDyne were about equally off, but in opposite directions.
Moral: DEGREE IT.
Posted By: 70challenger408
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 03:58 AM
yes springs were replaced with matching springs recommended by COMP.
here are the 1/4 info you requested mr p-body
r/t-.656
60'-2.123
330-5.88
1/8-8.99
mph-79.30
1000-11.6876
et-13.98
mph-98.07
can't find previous best slip, but i know it was 12.7 @105mph
I was foot braking it-launch @3000rpm, small wheel spin, and shifted at 6500rpm-trapped at 6800rpm(if I remember right).
any useful thoughts????
Posted By: Darryls-Demon
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 04:21 AM
If he is running pump gas the plugs could be white so he may not be lean.
I have that same cam in my street car. .030 over 440 11.1 with MW ported indy SR heads and ported indy DP intake, 3.55 gear with 2.77 first gear set. My tank weights 3900 lbs. I think the reason that cam works well in my combo is the DP intake.
Posted By: JD Dart
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 04:27 AM
So with you foot braking it, it will hold at 3000 rpm without moving the car? From the time slip it looks real lazy
make sure you get that cam degree like every one has said I've put a number of those cams in even with a 3800 stall they would 60' 1.5's in a Dakota truck.
Posted By: 70challenger408
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 04:28 AM
mr p body
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 04:34 AM
couple of questions...
what time of year was that you ran it compared to this year...the vegas heat can slow a car down almost .5 tenths...
I have all the tools necessary to degree in a cam...except it is more of a PIA with heads on..
Posted By: 70challenger408
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 05:03 AM
I ran it at midnight mayhem 1 month ago-temps were in mid 70's that night.
scott
Posted By: justinp61
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 11:48 AM
Quote:
et-13.98
mph-98.07
trapped at 6800rpm(if I remember right).
any useful thoughts????
What size tire? 6800 rpm @ 98 mph, I'd be looking at my converter or transmission. BYW it should be very strong with that cam .
Posted By: S/ST 3040
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 12:37 PM
I'd really like to know what intake you took off......I'd guess a Performer or similar?
What I see is you went 2 different directions with the car......
Single plane intake on an engine that probably makes peak power at 5300 RPM.
Cam is bigger, probably not detrimental to the combination but, not degreeing
it in is a BIG no no.
Then you went from 3.91 to a 3.55 gear........2 directions this case.
I would attribute .5 second to not spending time tuning at the track.
I'm not going to bust you up but, you changed the engine to move the power
up in RPM and the rear end to lower it.
That's just what I'm seeing.
Posted By: 70challenger408
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 01:16 PM
3.55's were installed last summer when I made the 12.7 pass. so is the general census change oput the gears???? if so, what gear set????? also, going back to the plugs, were should the color on the ground strap start for a good burn??? in answer to earlier questions, i made 3 passes with current combo-13.9 waas the best
also, intake taken off was a wieand stealth open plenum.
Posted By: FlyFish
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:12 PM
Something is WAY off there. I have the same cam in a very similar combo…410 stroker, 10.8 comp, ported eddys, Air-gap, 750dp, 4.10 gear…only mine runs 6.90’s @ 98mph in the 1/8 with a 1.49 60’. In the heat (90°F with lots-O-humidity) my car only slowed to a 7.08 @ 97mph. This cam make a lot of torque, so I doubt your gears are hurting you that much.
IMO, if you used the spring recommended by comp (914-16) then that may be part of your problem right there…those springs are too light. I’m running comp 939-16 installed @ 1.85, which gives ~ 190 lbs on the seat & ~460 lbs open. You should probably use more spring than what I have, I’m just limited due to my rockers.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:16 PM
The first thing you need to do is find out if all cylinders are sealing, and the cranking compression. If the cranking compression is even, follow with a leak down test. You want good ring seal or all else is a waste of time.
Theses steps well tell the story of roughly where the cam is, and if the wiped lobes took out the rings.
Next, find a way to check the air fuel ratio. You need to know if you are anywhere close. Jet as needed.
I highly recommend a chassis dyno session to be certain your ignition and fuel ratio get dialed in and have no problems.
Next, test the converter to see just how high it will flash once the motor is up and running strong. If your converter will flash past torque peak, the gears will have significantly less impact. If you have too little stall, they will kill you.
Too little stall to me with this combo would mean anything less than about 4400+ rpm.
If you get stuck anywhere along the line diagnosing this, just stay at looking for a way to get the info you need. Without doing this step by step, you are just stabbing in the dark.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:20 PM
Quote:
yes springs were replaced with matching springs recommended by COMP.
here are the 1/4 info you requested mr p-body
r/t-.656
60'-2.123
330-5.88
1/8-8.99
mph-79.30
1000-11.6876
et-13.98
mph-98.07
can't find previous best slip, but i know it was 12.7 @105mph
I was foot braking it-launch @3000rpm, small wheel spin, and shifted at 6500rpm-trapped at 6800rpm(if I remember right).
any useful thoughts????
Looks like most of the problem is the low end...
like its lacking torque to get it rolling... I would
degree the cam in FIRST and add a few degrees of
advance for the heavy car... also seems like a lot
of rpm for your gear
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 02:28 PM
Using a cam/running compression calculator, you should have about 200 pounds cranking compression if the cam is set at 104 degrees. That will run on 93 octane, or should. The dual plane might very well be a better choice here as well, as most don't loose ground to a single plane intake till after 5000 rpm. Remember that a LOT of time is required to get past 5000 rpm after the launch, and on each gear change. That is why a real loose converter is needed for a single plane.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 03:10 PM
My gut tells me the cam is retarded when extra advance would get you going. From the 1/8 to 1/4 it pulled pretty good.
At 6700 I would assume you were still in second gear
98 would be about the right speed with 3.55 gears and a 27 inch tire.
OR you have 50% converter slip?? or you were trapping at 4600??
Posted By: GomangoCuda
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 03:12 PM
Quote:
here are the 1/4 info you requested mr p-body
r/t-.656
60'-2.123
330-5.88
1/8-8.99
mph-79.30
1000-11.6876
et-13.98
mph-98.07
can't find previous best slip, but i know it was 12.7 @105mph
I was foot braking it-launch @3000rpm, small wheel spin, and shifted at 6500rpm-trapped at 6800rpm(if I remember right).
any useful thoughts????
Forget about the engine for now. Something is terribly wrong in the trans or converter. 6800 rpm with 3.55 gears and 26" tires(what I would concider small for that car) should be going almost 150 mph. At 98 mph you should be under 5000 rpm. Big time slippage somewhere.
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 03:29 PM
6800 traps diff not right for that et
or speed
now 2.1 60 ??
lot of spin maybe
but its slow everywhere
fuel del somewhere , tranny problem for sure
was it full of fluid?? dumb question ,,
had to ask?
getting full throttle ??
3 bagger
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 08:43 PM
60' time is terrible...street tires??
Posted By: 602heavy
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 09:23 PM
Loosen lash on exhaust & see if she picks up , the way i see it you've lost power going to a dual pattern
, also sounds like not enough fuel , maybe larger jets?
Posted By: Twin Turbo Mower
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 11:25 PM
Do a compression test.
Posted By: 68DART360
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/14/10 11:55 PM
I did not see it mentioned but I would first check to see that you have the throttle plates open all the way when you have the gas pedal to the floor. It will kill et from start to finish. Although most of the other comments about degreeing the cam and so on are things that should also be checked. Good luck!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/15/10 12:04 AM
Quote:
I did not see it mentioned but I would first check to see that you have the throttle plates open all the way when you have the gas pedal to the floor. It will kill et from start to finish. Although most of the other comments about degreeing the cam and so on are things that should also be checked. Good luck!
You would be surprised at how much the blades can be
closed before it really has ant effect on the ET...
I tried slowing my car down to 10.0 and I am at a little
less than 1/2 throttle and without short shifting
it would only slow it about .6 ... thats from 9.0
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/15/10 02:04 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I did not see it mentioned but I would first check to see that you have the throttle plates open all the way when you have the gas pedal to the floor. It will kill et from start to finish. Although most of the other comments about degreeing the cam and so on are things that should also be checked. Good luck!
You would be surprised at how much the blades can be
closed before it really has ant effect on the ET...
I tried slowing my car down to 10.0 and I am at a little
less than 1/2 throttle and without short shifting
it would only slow it about .6 ... thats from 9.0
In all fairness your car is pretty light compared to his Mr.P
I think they screwed up his converter as well, 6800 rpm with a 3.55 gear running only 98 mph?
Plus, the cam isn't that big compared to that healthy hydraulic that was in it. I agree with you that it needs to be degreed though.
I would degree the cam and see if you can borrow a decent converter from some cool guy in Vegas 
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/15/10 02:47 AM
In all fairness your car is pretty light compared to his Mr.P
I think they screwed up his converter as well, 6800 rpm with a 3.55 gear running only 98 mph?
Plus, the cam isn't that big compared to that healthy hydraulic that was in it. I agree with you that it needs to be degreed though.
I would degree the cam and see if you can borrow a decent converter from some cool guy in Vegas
I would believe there is a conv or trans slipping
issue, thats why I said that earier
Yes I know that weight will have a factor with the
carb not being open but guys really think if its a
1/8" from being full open its going to make a difference
it wont... just went through this a few weeks ago
with a heavy type car... didnt do diddiley... but
if it were closed enough it will kill torque(acts
like a small carb)
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/15/10 02:53 AM
Quote:
In all fairness your car is pretty light compared to his Mr.P
I think they screwed up his converter as well, 6800 rpm with a 3.55 gear running only 98 mph?
Plus, the cam isn't that big compared to that healthy hydraulic that was in it. I agree with you that it needs to be degreed though.
I would degree the cam and see if you can borrow a decent converter from some cool guy in Vegas
I would believe there is a conv or trans slipping
issue, thats why I said that earier
Yes I know that weight will have a factor with the
carb not being open but guys really think if its a
1/8" from being full open its going to make a difference
it wont... just went through this a few weeks ago
with a heavy type car... didnt do diddiley... but
if it were closed enough it will kill torque(acts
like a small carb)
I agree and that brings up another good point, if you are running a carb that is already a bit small then moving the throttle position will have a greater effect than on the bigger carbs like dominators.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/15/10 03:04 AM
I agree and that brings up another good point, if you are running a carb that is already a bit small then moving the throttle position will have a greater effect than on the bigger carbs like dominators.
The carb I was playing with a couple of weeks ago
was a 850
Posted By: Labratt
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/15/10 03:38 AM
Mike,are you referring to the 850 on the GTX not opening all the way at the track?
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/15/10 03:43 AM
Quote:
I agree and that brings up another good point, if you are running a carb that is already a bit small then moving the throttle position will have a greater effect than on the bigger carbs like dominators.
The carb I was playing with a couple of weeks ago
was a 850
I would think that closing the throttle plates would decrease the CFM but raise the velocity, kind of like putting a smaller carb on to get better low end response, but it will suffer on the big end.
I had a nice 650 DP that my friend borrowed for his 10:1 427 chevy and it ran 11.60 with a 1.49 60. We ultimately switched to an 850 and it went 11.47 with a 1.51 60.
The car weighed 3400 lbs.
So basically you are correct, it takes alot of throttle plate movement to knock off a full second of ET no matter what the car weighs lol.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/15/10 03:50 AM
Quote:
Mike,are you referring to the 850 on the GTX not opening all the way at the track?
Yeah that was one... but my bubby stopped by with his
truck also with some carb issues
Yes the smaller carb has a better low end response but
it will suffer on the big end
Posted By: forphorty
Re: too much cam????? kinda long-please help!!!!! - 06/15/10 05:40 AM
Gotta be going through the traps in 2nd.