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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: 52savoy]
#672196
04/25/10 03:59 PM
04/25/10 03:59 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
master
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
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I wasn't planning on getting back into this.. 
I am thankful for all the companies that have put in time and money so I can make my cars look like they did 40 years ago(or so).
There wouldn't be an old car hobby as we know it if it wasn't for people or companies recognizing our needs.
If a person doesn't have enough brain power to know what is real and what is fake, they have no business getting into old cars ..or anything else. We've become a world of "pass the buck" and don't except responsibility for our own actions.
Lumping dishonest people with others(like me) that just like to have a "period correct" car really is unfair. As with anything, when it becomes valuable.. the riff-raff come out.
If we follow the logic represented to it's conclusion, there shouldn't be any restored cars being given awards because of FAKE paint marks, interior, trim, tires, paint and so on.
Just survivor type cars should be accepted. Regardless of condition.
just my penny's worth  
Good point.. However, if I am reading this correctly, then only those with the "secret handshake" should be allowed to enter this realm of hobby car ownership(?). There are many upstanding folks who don't yet have the knowledge, yet have all of the enthusiasm(and $) and more than those of the "inner circle". Even the most omnipotent were all once "rookies".
Do we just chalk it up to "caveat emptor", or do we do our best to make it so that documents that are a crucial part of determining provenance, (and in some cases value), are ferreted out as fakes and subsequently frowned upon?
I am not particularly siding with anyone here, but I am kinda leaning in the direction that it's best to leave those items alone. if someone wants to make a sheet for his/her own personal enjoyment who am I to say anything about it? I guess the problem lies with the fact that if truly undetectable items like this exist, then it casts a shadow of doubt upon all documentation. That, in itself makes it a bad thing, in some respect. If you remember, it was the block stamping that was/is so prevalent among the Corvette crowd, that really put a damper on the "numbers matching" status of all collector Vettes.
MB
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: Paul Jacobs]
#672198
04/25/10 06:17 PM
04/25/10 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
I just stumbled onto this thread. Can someone recap so I don't have to read the past 5 pages? 
Paul,either way it will take you a while! 
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#672199
04/25/10 06:59 PM
04/25/10 06:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,299
State of Fascism
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,299
State of Fascism
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Quote:
Quote:
I just stumbled onto this thread. Can someone recap so I don't have to read the past 5 pages?
Paul,either way it will take you a while!
who would of thought.. 
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: 52savoy]
#672201
04/25/10 07:16 PM
04/25/10 07:16 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,123
Warrenton, VA
RoadRunnerJD
master
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master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,123
Warrenton, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
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I just stumbled onto this thread. Can someone recap so I don't have to read the past 5 pages?
Paul,either way it will take you a while!
who would of thought..
I think there is one somewhat angry person who says the Broadcast sheet is not that important, doesn't really add value to the car and he will reproduce one that will be perfectly undetecable in spite of everyone?
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: anlauto]
#672207
04/25/10 09:09 PM
04/25/10 09:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 428
Mid-Atlantic
Scatransit
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 428
Mid-Atlantic
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I think what the original poster is trying to do sounds kinda neat... We've all spent countless hours with our resource materials decoding build sheets...it's educational and a lot of fun...I've decoded mine 2 or 3 times and I always seem to learn something new...Doing it in reverse sounds like a real challenge...Get the parts books, service manuals, data tag info & so forth, all together and have at it! As for ECS...In light of their philisophical position on build sheets, I do applaud their decision not to reproduce them. There are just too many gray areas. 
[oo]======[oo]
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: Scatransit]
#672208
04/25/10 09:43 PM
04/25/10 09:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 44,060
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart
Rhinotruck
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Rhinotruck
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 44,060
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
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Quote:
I think what the original poster is trying to do sounds kinda neat... We've all spent countless hours with our resource materials decoding build sheets...it's educational and a lot of fun...I've decoded mine 2 or 3 times and I always seem to learn something new...Doing it in reverse sounds like a real challenge...Get the parts books, service manuals, data tag info & so forth, all together and have at it!
As for ECS...In light of their philisophical position on build sheets, I do applaud their decision not to reproduce them. There are just too many gray areas.
But he already HAS reproduced them, just decided not to offer them for sale!  The way I see it Dave used this thread to make his final decision NOT to sell them, though they will always be out there now.  Don't forget that we are just caretakers of these cars and they WILL be passed onto someone else eventually, or maybe Dave thinks he is going to live forever?  
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.
JB Rhinehart, Realist
A-Body's RULE!
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: Rhinodart]
#672209
04/25/10 09:55 PM
04/25/10 09:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
INDIANA
Paul Jacobs
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
INDIANA
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This post has gone from bad to worse! Enough already for Gods sake!! Look, despite everyones opinions, you guys making personal attacks on each other is taking it a bit too far. Dave Walden is a friend of mine, and we disagree on things. In fact, I happen to love broadcast sheets-they are very helpful when restoring a basket case with little other documentation. Jim Rinehart is a friend of mine and WE disagree on things. I have a lot of friends on here and we see things differently. It is not necessary, to agree on all things, to still be civil on a board, in which we all want to learn and help the hobby. This board should not be a platform of "who can prove their point the greatest". It's a fact that we are all very passionate about these cars, but it's a bit fruitless, if we lose the respect of our fellow enthusiast by our attitudes. The worst part about this is the original poster is a friend of mine. He's kinda new to the hobby and is one of the most honest people I have ever met. Some of the responses here have made him question whether he should ever post here again!! To all on here, thanks for your inputs on this subject-each one has been interesting reading.
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: MuscleMopars]
#672210
04/25/10 10:35 PM
04/25/10 10:35 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I understood the context of your post completely......So you DID care that it had paperwork and expected a car that was correct and documented by the paperwork.
I find your selective perception quite amusing. If you HAD paid attention you would have realized that my comments referenced 2002 and not present day. NOW, I choose to think for myself rather than listen to a group of self serving opportunists. (You do understand the meaning of the word "NOW" don't you Eric?) Being "bitten" by the ordeal only helped to expedite my change of heart. And Eric....that $200K was the best "taken" that ever happened to me. Once again had you paid attention, THAT ordeal was the catalyst that catapulted my company to be where it is today! Looking back, I wish I could find TEN more "taken" scenarios exactly like that one. Sorry if you find that disappointing!
Guys like you can moan and groan all you like. The bottom line is that I took the time to do things right and followed the proper channels to become licensed. I manufacture and legally represent all of the products I sell under the Chrysler Brand! They are completely aware of the Broadcast Sheets and were even willing to grant permission to offer them under certain conditions. Who are you to lecture me about what you seem to think I should or shouldn't feel about them?! Until you have controlling interest in Chrysler Eric, I guess you will just have to live with this.
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: Paul Jacobs]
#672211
04/25/10 10:52 PM
04/25/10 10:52 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
This post has gone from bad to worse!
No Paul, it has NOT gone from bad to worse. It is about time that someone stood up to the moronic rhetoric that has plagued us for quite some time. I have listened to this nonsense for YEARS but no one has been willing to take the bull by the horns and stand up for what is right! Did you read the earlier post where a Gentleman was told his all original survivor car was basically worthless (and only good for a parts car) because it didn't have the fender tag or a Build-sheet?!? If you give certain people perceived authority they will take it. I am NOT trying to change anyone's feelings about how they should perceive the value of a Broadcast Sheet. I would only hope that fellow hobbyist will STOP looking down their noses at those members who don't have a Hemi this or that with a Build-sheet or a 440 Six Pack with a build-sheet or a Superbird with a Build-sheet, etc.... I personal find my Slant Six Valiant a more desirable car than my Hemicuda or Challenger R/T. People's cars are valuable for WHAT THEY ARE not because "someone" subjectively dictates their importance based on a piece of paper shoved in a seat! 
PS...when are you coming up?
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
#672212
04/26/10 12:47 AM
04/26/10 12:47 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,704
North Central USA (MN-WI area)
MuscleMopars
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,704
North Central USA (MN-WI area)
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Quote:
Quote:
I understood the context of your post completely......So you DID care that it had paperwork and expected a car that was correct and documented by the paperwork.
I find your selective perception quite amusing. If you HAD paid attention you would have realized that my comments referenced 2002 and not present day. NOW, I choose to think for myself rather than listen to a group of self serving opportunists. (You do understand the meaning of the word "NOW" don't you Eric?) Being "bitten" by the ordeal only helped to expedite my change of heart. And Eric....that $200K was the best "taken" that ever happened to me. Once again had you paid attention, THAT ordeal was the catalyst that catapulted my company to be where it is today! Looking back, I wish I could find TEN more "taken" scenarios exactly like that one. Sorry if you find that disappointing!
Guys like you can moan and groan all you like. The bottom line is that I took the time to do things right and followed the proper channels to become licensed. I manufacture and legally represent all of the products I sell under the Chrysler Brand! They are completely aware of the Broadcast Sheets and were even willing to grant permission to offer them under certain conditions. Who are you to lecture me about what you seem to think I should or shouldn't feel about them?! Until you have controlling interest in Chrysler Eric, I guess you will just have to live with this.
Dave, I'm a customer of yours and I do appreciate some of your products but I don't appreciate your arrogance to anybody that try's to reason with you. I also don't appreciate the way you dangle out in front of everybody here your personal perceived power to ruin what an original broadcast sheet does for documenting real original cars with your counterfeit sheets IF you wanted to because Chrysler officially authorized you to do so. I don't think I'm alone here. You know what a negative effect it would have if you did offer them and that is why you don't, but quit acting like you might. You should put your efforts into detecting fake sheets since you are the expert at faking them. I don't think anybody here would argue with you if you were to become the Official Chrysler Licensed fake broadcast sheet detector! Don't take offense to this, just munch on it a bit and hopefully it might make some sense to you without you coming back at me and bashing me for being concerned...Now be nice 
Thanks, Eric email eric@musclemopars.com
715-426-HEMI (Shop)
612-669-CARS (Cell and Texts)Go to my Moparts "Profile" to see my web site
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Re: reproduction broadcast sheet
[Re: Rhinodart]
#672214
04/26/10 06:52 AM
04/26/10 06:52 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,165
Florida
cataclysm80
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,165
Florida
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Quote:
But he already HAS reproduced them, just decided not to offer them for sale!
The sheets Dave made (about 5 years ago it sounds like) have no affect on the hobby and no affect on the cars they were made for. No information on the sheet was guessed at or changed. They are basically a fancy color copy of an already existing sheet. An extra copy of a broadcast sheet has no affect on a car that already had a sheet with it. An extra copy of a broadcast sheet also has no affect on the future of the hobby. If someone else gets there hands on one of Dave's sheets in 50 years, even if it's not with the car anymore, because the codes on the sheet are exactly the same, it would be no different from having one of the many copies the factory made for each car.
Barry Washington said earlier in this thread that his definition of reproduction included nothing being changed or guessed at from original. These sheets meet that (and every other) definition. They are true reproductions.
Even if they don't always agree with each other 100%, Barry Washington, Galen Govier, & Dave Walden are the three people I trust to never change a cars documents. (I could probably add a few more to that list also, Scott Smith, Dan, etc...)
It sounds like Dave did a marvelous job selecting the correct paper, ink, & font, while also formatting and aging the document, but the real tell about a fake sheet will always be the information that goes in the blanks. Some options don't go with other options, and what was coded on the sheet along with how it was coded changed over time. Not just from year to year, but also early vs late in the year.
Tav
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The paperwork added value to your car as it should but you failed to do your homework and personally inspect the car before you bought it and negotiate a price for it that was fair based on what you expected. If you had to spend $200K to just "straighten things out" then you really got taken... 
