reproduction broadcast sheet

Posted By: MOPARMIKE69

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 11:53 AM

Without the original build sheet many options on a car cannot be documented. You cannot know exactly what the car came from the factory with.
Simple as that.
Now continue the

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 12:56 PM

I'm done debating the issue, my opinion has been posted and it's not going to change, to each his own

Posted By: A12

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 01:11 PM

Quote:

Without the original build sheet many options on a car cannot be documented. You cannot know exactly what the car came from the factory with.
Simple as that.
Now continue the

Don't know how accurate that is but I would think that an original Monroney Label/"Window Sticker" holds more value and accuracy as to what was ORDERED and what options the vehicle had when it left the factory (doesn't include dealer installed items). And a Monroney Label/window sticker was REQUIRED BY FEDERAL LAW (since the late '50's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroney_Label ) so this should be way more of an

by the Mopar community when it comes to REPRODUCTION documentation. There always seems to be

about reproduction fender tags or reproduction broadcast sheets but nobody even gives a hoot about reproduction Window Stickers and we see them all of the time and you can have them made anyway you want with any dealer you want on it in most cases....and cheap too in comparison to the other "documentation". If you made a fake...I mean REPRODUCTION Window Sticker then or now or if the dealer even removed it from the window of the vehicle you would be violating FEDERAL law, show me where that is the case with a broadcast sheet or fender tag..............carry on

MikeR

Posted By: denfireguy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 02:02 PM

I love these discussions. We have two of the biggest bats in the Mopar restoration field going toe to toe. I highly respect both of them and feel greatly indebted to them for their investment in this hobby. I also think BOTH of their opinions are valid.
It is easy for me, I have a "lowly" 73 Cuda. The engine matches, the build sheet under the back seat was in decent shape. The one behind the glove box disintegrated, I kept the bigger pieces. The fender tag is original. My car will never be worth what Scott's or Dave's cars are worth but it is mine and has been for 30 years. That is all I care about.
Craig

Posted By: ademon

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 02:57 PM

I would say the sheets are more "needed" for the hi end cars, i wasn't going to turn down my demon 340 because someone added sport mirrors, wheel lip & belt mouldings, and hood pins, it's missing the build sheet but did find the owners of the car from 1973 to 79 they sent me pics which to me are of more value

Attached picture 5936617-001.jpg

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 03:04 PM

Thanks for your support Craig! One thing I have to say is that YOU guys are the ones that allow us to do what we do. We are servants to everyone that makes up our Hobby! There are certainly no insignificant vehicles. The people and the relationships built along the way are what makes this all worth while.

I wanted to say that Scott and I actually stand shoulder to shoulder! You couldn't ask for a more sincere or intelligent advocate when it comes to these cars. I also want to say that Mike (A12) REALLY hit home in his last post. He is 1000% correct with his statement about Window Stickers. Many people do not know that ECS has a separate division that is the support and backbone of our company. Just recently we were approached by a new Electric Automobile Manufacturer to produce (not reproduce) every label for their new cars including the Monroney Sticker. Our company works with State Legislators, the NICB, Chief Investigators for the Auto Manufacturers as well as their Corporate Attorneys. (It took us over a year to have our reproduction Window Stickers approved by Chrysler.) ECS was also given approval to manufacture reproduction Broadcast Sheets (with certain restrictions) but refused the opportunity due to the negative fallout that might result. The point I am trying to make here is that certain aspects of our thought process has become backwards due to some unwritten rule that is accepted throughout the industry. Like Mike said in his post, the Monroney label is MUCH more important than the Build-sheet and is held to strict Federal Government regulations and guidelines. Why isn't there the same sentiment and "taboo" over those items? As a matter of fact, some who have posted in this thread about the Broadcast Sheets (being sacred and off limits) have purchased Monroney Stickers from ECS! Isn't THAT actually a character contradiction in ethics and concept logic?

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 04:55 PM

I see fake window stickers being passed off as the real thing all the time. Sellers often give themselves a bad name by withholding the facts.

Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 05:30 PM

Quote:

What about Los Angeles cars? Should they be penalized in value or assumed lessor of a collector car?

My LA built car has a broadcast sheet.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 06:25 PM

Quote:

I see fake window stickers being passed off as the real thing all the time. Sellers often give themselves a bad name by withholding the facts.

Howdy Mr. Barry! Keep in mind that they are only "fake" if done by an unlicensed or non certified entity. I requested an "extra" Window Sticker when I purchased THE first C6 Corvette that was available to the general public. The extra copy wasn't the one that was adhered to the car but it was just as "real" and authentic as the one that it emulated! Quite honestly I don't know if the "copy" was the original or if the one on the window was the copy that just happened to make it on the car! What if the first one that came off of the printer ended up being placed underneath the second copy and the second copy ended up being applied to the window?! This would mean that the "real" window sticker they put on my car was actually a "fake"!! WOW.....now I'm starting to get angry about all of this!

Posted By: Mastershake340

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 06:55 PM

Quote:

Without the original build sheet many options on a car cannot be documented. You cannot know exactly what the car came from the factory with.
Simple as that.
Now continue the

I agree with that...mostly. As several others noted, the Monroney label also provides the documentation as to what originally was on the car.
My Challenger T/A had 2 broadcast sheets from another car, and its original fender tag. When I bought the car in the late '70's, it was largely original, however it had Cragar mags and the engine had been rebuilt and modified.
I replaced the wheels with factory rallye wheels a few years after I bought the car and all was well with the world, my car was now in its "as built" state, or so I thought.
Nearly 20 years later my car's dealer sales packet turned up (it's a Mr. Norms sold car). Though the Monroney label wasn't in the packet, there was a sheet called an "advance dealer shipping notice" I think it is called, in the envelope which listed all my car's options.
From that I found that my car wasn't optioned with ralleys, so I had to go track down some 15x7 "450's" for my car to make it correct. Had I had that information years earlier when I bought my rallyes, I could have saved quite a bit of money as 450's weren't bringing much money in the early 80's!
It's great if we could all start with original unaltered cars like Dave suggested, but few cars like that exist, and most of us don't have the network to find one of the few that exist, or the piggy bank to buy such a car if one turns up.
Therefore, to do an accurate restoration, or to document a car, some sort of factory paperwork on the car is needed. The Monroney label is great, but if that no longer exists, the advance dealer shipping notice or broadcast sheet is needed as the car's "pedigree". I would think any of those documents is equally valuable, having one is good and adds value to the car, having more than one of those documents is nice but doesn't add value. And having none of those 3 has to hurt the value.
As for the statement that repro paperwork is no different than repro parts, I don't agree or understand that thinking at all!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 07:23 PM

I think a BCS is important to find out how a car was originally built. It's sort of the DNA of the car.

Lets say you buy a one owner car and your intentions are to restore it to the highest level but it doesn't have a BCS.
Before the original owner died he told you it was 100% original and even showed you pictures of it back in 1970....

But what he forgot to mention...The day he first saw the car on the lot at the dealer he didn't like the standard hub caps so he tells the salesman "see those hub caps on the other car there?...I want those on this car...then you'll have a deal" Before you could can say OE Gold the salesman swaps the hub caps.....

Now 40 years later, you and everybody else ASSUMES those hub caps are correct....BUT ONLY a BCS can prove the car was born with the standard caps.....

SEE....ahhhhhh..

Posted By: Mastershake340

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 07:33 PM

Funny you should mention that example Alan.
Several years ago I spotted a T/A that looked alot like mine at a local show. And it was in unrestored original condition. As I was checking it out, the owner pulled out his Mr. Norms paperwork, and it was then that I noticed that the car was 2 VIN's past mine!!!

I started chatting with the owner and he told me he found BCS's in his car for the one after his, and it was identical to his and also a Mr. Norms car.
Later after contacting Barry I found that mine was the 1st of 4 identical consecutively VIN'ed T/A's ordered by Mr. Norm's.
The car at the show had rallye wheels on it, and on his sales paperwork someone had written "add rallye wheels". The owner said the owner of the car after his said his paperwork had the same thing written on it.
And someone had started to write that on my sales paperwork, but it had been scribbled out.
So on at least 2 of these four identical steel wheel T/A's, their first owners rolled off Mr. Norms lot in their new T/A's with rallyes in place of their original steelies.

Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 11:39 PM

So your broadcast sheet refers to your car as having 450 steelies on it, so what if you put Rallyes on it. There is nothing wrong with building a car the way you would of liked the factory to build it. The broadcast sheet is just a piece of paper that road down different parts of the plant to tell the workes what the build was. Even with using the sheet on the assembly line, if you had an in at the plant your car could of been loaded up with options that never appeared on the Broadcast Sheet.I work at an Automotive Production Plant for the last 30 or more years and the addition of options that were put on a vehicle that were not on the Build Sheet was done regularly. It is next to impossible now but not unheard of.I have also seen diffences between the broadcast sheet option and the fender tags on original Broadcast sheet and fender tag cars. Some options missed on Broadcast Sheet and are on the Tag and some on the Tag and missed on the Broadcast Sheet.

As for Reproducting a broadcast sheet,it has been done and will be done in the future and there is nothing anyone one can do about it. People think they are easy to tell, well you are only duplicating 40 year old technology and if you start with an original blank broadcast sheet and adding the Fonts its really not hard to do if you have the money and the knowledge.

Just look at how good the reproduction Door VINs are the considered fake, and even how good some of the Fender tags have gotten but they are considered fake on a car. Some people say if you say its a reproduction and do not say it is real it is OK. Well what are the rules anyone know and who will decided what the rules are or will be in the future.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/20/10 11:48 PM

Quote:

....The day he first saw the car on the lot at the dealer he didn't like the standard hub caps so he tells the salesman "see those hub caps on the other car there?...I want those on this car...then you'll have a deal" Before you could can say OE Gold the salesman swaps the hub caps.....

Now 40 years later.....

Here is another odd scenario that involves the assembly plant in contrast to the original owner. The Valiant that we are working on has door edge guards listed on the Broadcast sheet. The car never came with them! We are absolutely positive that they were never installed at the plant because there was not a single scratch or chip ANYWHERE along the edges of the original paint. When we got the car there was a set of door edge guards in the trunk that was dated 1970! Was this a mistake that was noticed at the dealership when she came to take delivery of the vehicle? Did the original owner notice the omission and the dealership order a service replacement set for her? Who knows?! We took them (the door edge guards) out of the package and positioned one into place to check the door gap with it installed. Upon removing it, the paint along the door edge became chipped and badly scratched. That helped to prove that there was no way they were simply removed during the life of the car! I seriously doubt that this car is the only one that ever had an entry on the Broadcast sheet that did not end up on the vehicle! Does this mean that the "holy grail" might not possess the absolute "deity" that was originally assumed?

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 12:21 AM

My first story above was fictitious of course, however here's a true story that affected myself.

EVERY published picture of the pre-restored WORLD FAMOUS BARRELCUDA clearly shows the car with Road Lamps.

A conversation with the original owner confirmed that the lights were on the car, as he ordered it, and were there at the time he picked it up. He's still alive and very well

However....The road lamps DO NOT appear on the original broadcast sheet and other then the lamps themselves there was no original switch or wiring to be found in the car.

I chose to restore the car without the lamps because that's what the broadcast sheet says...

As for "it's your car do what you want" I agree some people believe that and that's terrific for them, but don't knock people who do not believe. This hobby is full of all different types of people.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 12:24 AM

I have heard from one guy that said the door edge moldings were shipped in the trunk for dealer installation.

So, if he was right, they would be on the broadcast sheet - but not factory installed.

Same story with with hubcaps / wheel covers & AAR / T/A front spoilers & exhaust tips.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 12:56 AM

Quote:

I have heard from one guy that said the door edge moldings were shipped in the trunk for dealer installation.

This might have been the case but the packaging was not "generic" like the wrappings that usually came from the factory for things like hubcaps, license plate brackets, etc..... They were in the Chrysler paper (elongated) envelopes that were usually found at the Dealership Service Parts counter.

I realize that we have ventured far from the original intent of this post but I hope that the peripheral information is helpful to everyone following. Thanks for including that information Barry!

Posted By: Captain Flapjack

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:12 AM

if a car didnt have to come with a buildsheet then why does the mopar nationals OE judging deduct points if you dont have one?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:29 AM

Quote:

if a car didnt have to come with a buildsheet then why does the mopar nationals OE judging deduct points if you dont have one?

You do not receive a point deduction if you do not have a build-sheet. It is considered "extra credit" or extra points if you still have things like the window sticker, invoice, traveler sheet, build sheet, etc....

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:36 AM

Did the envelope have a day & month in addition to the "1970" ?

If so, how close is it to your SPD?

Posted By: Convertcuda

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:36 AM

Dave,
Thanks for the info. Can you tell us all the things that are considered extra credit. Is there a list a guy can look at for this.

Thanks Ken

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:41 AM

Hi Barry,
I will get a picture of the package and post it here. There might be a photo of it in the Mopar archives thread, "Taking it to the NEW next level". I can't remember if it had the month listed or not.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:44 AM

Hi Ken! Good to hear from you. The original paperwork is about the only thing that will bring a few extra points. They understand that some cars did not come with certain documentation so it wouldn't be fair to deduct for an item no longer existed or was out of the participants control.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:47 AM

The Briggs & Stratton envelope at the link below was under the carpet of my '70 Coronet. So, at least some items were packaged, door locks in this case.

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/oddities/briggsStrattonEnvelope.jpg

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 02:06 AM

The packages were white envelopes with blue print and also had the blue Pentastar. They were not in the generic type brown packaging that you showed in that photo. I also had original factory envelopes (similar to yours) with my Challenger for the ignition and trunk keys.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 02:42 AM

Quote:

The Briggs & Stratton envelope at the link below was under the carpet of my '70 Coronet. So, at least some items were packaged, door locks in this case.

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/oddities/briggsStrattonEnvelope.jpg

Another thing to remember Barry is that the door locks were not a dealer installed item. More than likely the employee who installed those lock levers didn't take the time to properly discard the trash after installation. This scenario is very similar to what occurred with the broadcast sheets. Some of the installation jobs (carpet, gas tank, dash, head liner, etc...) allowed the assembly line worker to discard their "trash" in those concealed areas. The guys who installed items like the steering wheels, shifters, tires and wheels, etc.... didn't have those same liberties. Their installation parts were out in the open and didn't allow for hiding or incorrectly discarding the left over packaging/paper work!

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 02:50 AM

I did not say they were dealer installed. It was just an example of an item that was pre-packaged for assembly line use.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 03:24 AM

Quote:

I did not say they were dealer installed. It was just an example of an item that was pre-packaged for assembly line use.

Sorry, I assumed that you were using that illustration to support what we had been discussing about the packaging for (factory shipped) Dealer installed parts. I'm not very smart Barry! You have to tell me when you switch from one subject matter to another!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 09:41 AM

Dave
Will you put the door edge guards in place now or back in the trunk ?

As for assembly line workers being "too lazy" to throw out the broadcast sheet....Would it not take more effort to put the complete thing behind the seat springs? If it was put there during the sub assembly, and it can't be seen after final assembly then why would it be deemed necessary to remove them and discard them?

Posted By: cataclysm80

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:31 PM

Quote:

Well what are the rules anyone know and who will decided what the rules are or will be in the future.

I'd like to offer a suggestion.
A FAKE part/document is one that is not original, but is being passed off as original.
A REPRODUCTION part/document is one that is not original, but is NOT being passed off as original.
I suggest ALL reproduction parts/documents be clearly marked as such in an inconspicuous location. On parts, it should be in a place that isn't overly visible when installed, like how Dales Cuda Shop puts DCS on the backside of their door handles. On documents, it could be smack in the middle of the back side of the document. Maybe in big letters "REPRODUCTION".

Parts/documents coming from Chrysler, or approved/commissioned/licensed by Chrysler should not be required to say reproduction. They are essentially extra copies/reissues/replacements. Still, there will always be differences between assembly line parts/documents and replacements for those in the know.

There will also always be dishonest people turning reproductions into fakes. We should all be aware of this, but at the same time, we can't stop making reproductions just because there are dishonest people in the world.

Broadcast sheets/window stickers/fender tags allow people who want to learn more about how these cars were originally equipped, to do so. They are a major tool in learning about what options were originally available on what makes & models from the factory. Fake broadcast sheets are a horrible thing. They hinder the learning ability of those in the hobby. Imagine someone printing math books that said 2+3=6 and passing them out to schools. It should have been 2x3=6. Close, but a little change can make a big difference. That said, I don't have a problem with reproduction anything as long as it's clearly labeled somewhere.

Tav

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:40 PM

Quote:

Without the original build sheet many options on a car cannot be documented. You cannot know exactly what the car came from the factory with.
Simple as that.
Now continue the

If you don't know what it was then it is what it is at present.Don't lose sleep over it,enjoy it for what it is.Lot's of is's and it's there.

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:45 PM

As for assembly line workers being "too lazy" to throw out the broadcast sheet....Would it not take more effort to put the complete thing behind the seat springs? If it was put there during the sub assembly, and it can't be seen after final assembly then why would it be deemed necessary to remove them and discard them?

The assembly shop doing seat upholstery had no more than 2 minutes assy time per seat to scan the Bsheet, pull the appropriate frame, foam and upholstery into shape and hog ring it together, so rather than stand in a pile of discarded BSheets during the day, the worker threw the BS on the springs, placed the foam over it along with upholstery, hogged it, then racked it for delivery to the line,....the BS was basicaly hidden trash at that point, not the "Holy Grail" it has become

Mike

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 01:50 PM

Quote:

As for assembly line workers being "too lazy" to throw out the broadcast sheet....Would it not take more effort to put the complete thing behind the seat springs? If it was put there during the sub assembly, and it can't be seen after final assembly then why would it be deemed necessary to remove them and discard them?

Mike

Amen!!

Posted By: 52savoy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 02:52 PM

This is a very good post...There are pros and cons to both sides. the thing that gets me is when people tell me or say the car isn't worth as much or anything because the documentation is missing even though it still has a VIN.

Case in point..In 2005, I owned a '69 superbee(pictured) that was basically an untouched survivor. Only the wheels had been changed. The broadcast sheet and fender tag(2) were missing. Just looking at the car it was obvious it is a highly optioned car. I talked to Galen about it and he said it wasn't worth being restored because of the missing tags and sheet. What a load of crap..

I sold the car to a guy in Texas because I got tired of the bs ..and I had cancer at that time.

Posted By: srt

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 03:48 PM

Your car was/is a certain candidate for a thorough restoration, and *may* be a candidate for a color change (in and out) as well as vinyl top delete.
Now, did/will the buyer note the equipment the car *appeared* to include stock, or will it be adorned with a repro fender tag/bs sheet?

Posted By: A12

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 04:53 PM

Quote:

As for assembly line workers being "too lazy" to throw out the broadcast sheet....Would it not take more effort to put the complete thing behind the seat springs? If it was put there during the sub assembly, and it can't be seen after final assembly then why would it be deemed necessary to remove them and discard them?

Mike

Mostly agree but I'm pretty sure it was put there deliberately and facing outward because has anyone ever seen a broadcast sheet in the back of a seat with the printing face down??? I'm pretty sure it was put on the springs and the seat built around it so it could be read when completed, kind of a paper fender tag for the interior

MikeR

Attached picture 5938974-20024263105349250707996ASMG.jpg

Posted By: 52savoy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 05:03 PM

I haven't heard back from the guy but I've always had a bad feeling that he parted it out.
There was one person who drove 7 hours to look at it and when he said he was buying it to part out our conversation was pretty much over...

Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 05:42 PM

The Cushion line, that is what the seat line was called back in the 60s and 70s at the production plant I work at. There was more that one person on the cushion line and there was racking to store a quantity of seats already put together. Ever wonder why nearly all broad cast sheets can be read through the springs. To put the Broadcast sheet into the springs is also an engineered trash can. Why did chrysler put a rolled up broadcast sheet that you can not read on the back of a glove box taped on.Maybe to just get ride of the sheet before it was installed into the body of the car.The I.P line would of read it before during assembly. It would of been taped already. Someone might of just rolled it up to get it from hanging down past the glove box so no one would see it useing the tape that was used to hold it up already. The putting of broadcast sheets in vehicle seats now is likely not done because the seats are already sub.assembled and shipped to the plant already built. No need for a broad cast sheet with the seats they just need a sequence number.

This is not one hundred percent accurate of how Chrysler did this, but it is very close to what happened at the Automotive plant I worked at in the past.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 05:59 PM

Quote:

....Case in point..In 2005, I owned a '69 superbee(pictured) that was basically an untouched survivor. Only the wheels had been changed. The broadcast sheet and fender tag(2) were missing. Just looking at the car it was obvious it is a highly optioned car. I talked to Galen about it and he said it wasn't worth being restored because of the missing tags and sheet. What a load of crap.....

Hello Fred,
This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Someone deems themselves the "ruler" of the Hobby, proceeds to fabricate a bunch of self serving guidelines and another person walks away upset and disgruntled. I have had quite a few phone calls concerning this thread so I want to make myself a bit clearer on the subject. I think that ANY vehicle documentation is great to have and actually the best case scenario when buying/owning a car. I am NOT trying to change the importance of what this paperwork has meant to these vehicles and our Hobby. I just hope that some common sense can be used in conjunction with what has been conveyed over the past few years.

After hearing your story Fred, I want to apologize to you for what happened! It was wrong and the grief that you felt was completely unjustified. These cars have certainly become collectible commodities! With that said, would any of you get rid of your home if the Deed was lost or destroyed in a fire! Would you get rid or destroy your personal vehicle if the title was lost? Would you quit driving if you lost your driver's license? Of course NOT! So why treat these cars any differently? THEY (not the paperwork) create the importance of what they are.

One final point I want to make concerning vehicle documentation and paperwork. If you lost a title to your car and had the DMV replaced the original, would the replacement be illegal or a "fake"? If you lost your Birth Certificate and received a replacement, would the copy be considered a "fake"? If you lost your Driver's License and the DMV issued another, would it be considered a "fake"? I am not trying to politic or promote replacement paperwork, I just hope it is understood that not EVERYONE is a crook because they want replacement paperwork for their collector car. There are legitimate sources that can provide some of these documents. When we start to wrongfully label people for asking simple honest questions, we only weaken the backbone of our hobby. It is pitiful to think that some are so closed minded, that they felt the only option was to "part out" a PERFECTLY good/valuable vehicle because of some incorrect, brainwashed, opinionated rhetoric regarding documentation!

Posted By: 52savoy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 06:17 PM

Thanks Dave, but you have no reason to apologize to me. Those were other people involved and you as well as I don't share their views. I'm thankful we have ESC around..
My

...documentation is important but it's not the "end all".
My cancer was the biggest reason it was sold because things were looking pretty bad at that time.

I think we had a pretty good (spirited) talk here and no "HARM" done..

ps..I've thought about a reproduction window sticker for my '68 Hemi roadrunner but I'm holding out and praying that paperwork will show up from Byer's Chrysler/Plymouth in Columbus,Oh

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 09:35 PM

Quote:

Why did chrysler put a rolled up broadcast sheet that you can not read on the back of a glove box taped on.

It was used as a check list, it was in plain view to the folks assembling the dash assembly.

From it, they knew what color dash pad, reverse light or not, wiring harness for std. cluster or rallye cluster, & so on, even what VIN number to apply.

The back of the glovebox liner provided a clipboard of sorts, the broadcast sheet there almost always has items of importance to the dash assembly circled & / or checked off.

Posted By: A12

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 10:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Why did chrysler put a rolled up broadcast sheet that you can not read on the back of a glove box taped on.

It was used as a check list, it was in plain view to the folks assembling the dash assembly.

From it, they knew what color dash pad, reverse light or not, wiring harness for std. cluster or rallye cluster, & so on, even what VIN number to apply.

The back of the glovebox liner provided a clipboard of sorts, the broadcast sheet there almost always has items of importance to the dash assembly circled & / or checked off.

Were the dashes built as an assembly with the dash pad, VIN tag, instrument cluster, radio, ash tray, glove box, trim, etc. and then installed as they do now? This would be a reason for "tagging" them with a broadcast sheet as they were being done off to the side or a completely separate area. This would help to insure the correct VIN/dash matched up with the body too. And there was no windshield before the dash was bolted in to paste the big broadcast sheet on at that point.

MikeR

Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/21/10 11:18 PM

[quoteOne final point I want to make concerning vehicle documentation and paperwork.

I'm pleased Dave that was your final word on this issue, so now you can go back to work on those TIRE BOOTIES for your Valiant. Wouldn't want to get those tires dirty would we?

Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 01:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Why did chrysler put a rolled up broadcast sheet that you can not read on the back of a glove box taped on.

It was used as a check list, it was in plain view to the folks assembling the dash assembly.

From it, they knew what color dash pad, reverse light or not, wiring harness for std. cluster or rallye cluster, & so on, even what VIN number to apply.

The back of the glovebox liner provided a clipboard of sorts, the broadcast sheet there almost always has items of importance to the dash assembly circled & / or checked off.

My Question is why roll it up? I put down why it was there in my first post, so the workers can follow and pick of parts for the build. The only reasons to roll up the sheet would be to hide it out of site and get rid of the garbage B/C Sheet. Yes I/P line that is the line that every dash piece is put on. Instrument Panel is what it stands for.

I am not sure but there could be a Seat line both for the front seats and back seats. This could explain why some cars are found with wrong broadcast sheets in the car. Maybe the rear seats were put in via looking at the broadcast sheet and the workers putting in the front buckets just grabbed the matching front seat and did not look at the B/C in the bucket or bench. You would have to work on the line to know this stuff and every plant and auto manufacturer might do it differently.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 01:36 AM

I have not seen a glovebox sheet rolled up before.

Bucket seats like the 70-71 styles were delivered to the main line with the backs on, so the line guys did not open them up just to see what car they matched.

That broadcast sheets job was over once the seats were made.

Posted By: pinkduster

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 01:46 AM

Quote:

The assembly shop doing seat upholstery had no more than 2 minutes assy time per seat to scan the Bsheet, pull the appropriate frame, foam and upholstery into shape and hog ring it together

2 MINUTES!? Holy crap!

I just did some seat cover work and it took me WAY longer than 2 minutes!

Posted By: gomangoRTSE

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 01:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Well what are the rules anyone know and who will decided what the rules are or will be in the future.

I'd like to offer a suggestion.
A FAKE part/document is one that is not original, but is being passed off as original.
A REPRODUCTION part/document is one that is not original, but is NOT being passed off as original.
I suggest ALL reproduction parts/documents be clearly marked as such in an inconspicuous location. On parts, it should be in a place that isn't overly visible when installed, like how Dales Cuda Shop puts DCS on the backside of their door handles. On documents, it could be smack in the middle of the back side of the document. Maybe in big letters "REPRODUCTION".

Parts/documents coming from Chrysler, or approved/commissioned/licensed by Chrysler should not be required to say reproduction. They are essentially extra copies/reissues/replacements. Still, there will always be differences between assembly line parts/documents and replacements for those in the know.

There will also always be dishonest people turning reproductions into fakes. We should all be aware of this, but at the same time, we can't stop making reproductions just because there are dishonest people in the world.
_________________________________________________

Broadcast sheets/window stickers/fender tags allow people who want to learn more about how these cars were originally equipped, to do so. They are a major tool in learning about what options were originally available on what makes & models from the factory. Fake broadcast sheets are a horrible thing. They hinder the learning ability of those in the hobby. Imagine someone printing math books that said 2+3=6 and passing them out to schools. It should have been 2x3=6. Close, but a little change can make a big difference. That said, I don't have a problem with reproduction anything as long as it's clearly labeled somewhere.
One final point I want to make concerning vehicle documentation and paperwork. If you lost a title to your car and had the DMV replaced the original, would the replacement be illegal or a "fake"? If you lost your Birth Certificate and received a replacement, would the copy be considered a "fake"? If you lost your Driver's License and the DMV issued another, would it be considered a "fake"? I am not trying to politic or promote replacement paperwork, I just hope it is understood that not EVERYONE is a crook because they want replacement paperwork for their collector car. There are legitimate sources that can provide some of these documents. When we start to wrongfully label people for asking simple honest questions, we only weaken the backbone of our hobby. It is pitiful to think that some are so closed minded, that they felt the only option was to "part out" a PERFECTLY good/valuable vehicle because of some incorrect, brainwashed, opinionated rhetoric regarding documentation!
___________________________________________

I can agree with these two common sense postings.

Posted By: Iceman01

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 03:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

....Case in point..In 2005, I owned a '69 superbee(pictured) that was basically an untouched survivor. Only the wheels had been changed. The broadcast sheet and fender tag(2) were missing. Just looking at the car it was obvious it is a highly optioned car. I talked to Galen about it and he said it wasn't worth being restored because of the missing tags and sheet. What a load of crap.....

Hello Fred,
This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Someone deems themselves the "ruler" of the Hobby, proceeds to fabricate a bunch of self serving guidelines and another person walks away upset and disgruntled. I have had quite a few phone calls concerning this thread so I want to make myself a bit clearer on the subject. I think that ANY vehicle documentation is great to have and actually the best case scenario when buying/owning a car. I am NOT trying to change the importance of what this paperwork has meant to these vehicles and our Hobby. I just hope that some common sense can be used in conjunction with what has been conveyed over the past few years.

After hearing your story Fred, I want to apologize to you for what happened! It was wrong and the grief that you felt was completely unjustified. These cars have certainly become collectible commodities! With that said, would any of you get rid of your home if the Deed was lost or destroyed in a fire! Would you get rid or destroy your personal vehicle if the title was lost? Would you quit driving if you lost your driver's license? Of course NOT! So why treat these cars any differently? THEY (not the paperwork) create the importance of what they are.

One final point I want to make concerning vehicle documentation and paperwork. If you lost a title to your car and had the DMV replaced the original, would the replacement be illegal or a "fake"? If you lost your Birth Certificate and received a replacement, would the copy be considered a "fake"? If you lost your Driver's License and the DMV issued another, would it be considered a "fake"? I am not trying to politic or promote replacement paperwork, I just hope it is understood that not EVERYONE is a crook because they want replacement paperwork for their collector car. There are legitimate sources that can provide some of these documents. When we start to wrongfully label people for asking simple honest questions, we only weaken the backbone of our hobby. It is pitiful to think that some are so closed minded, that they felt the only option was to "part out" a PERFECTLY good/valuable vehicle because of some incorrect, brainwashed, opinionated rhetoric regarding documentation!

Great thread with a lot of well thought out opinions expressed. I gotta say that Dave makes a very compelling case that has needed to be articulated for a very long time. More than one thing can be true at the same time.

This whole argument is really only about money. No one wants to get ripped off or have the value of their vehicle diluted by counterfeits. But what Dave wrote is true too...

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 02:36 PM

Perhaps the window sticker SHOULD get more respect than a BS; but the rhetoric opining that documentation shouldn't be worth anything is largely irrelevant:

just because you WISH it so, doesn't MAKE it so! Bottom line is that purchasers of collectible cars want proof of options which requires documentation: The original BS is typically thought of as the best source of this information and people assign value accordingly.....like it or not.

I wouldn't recommend parting out a perfectly good car due to a lack of documentation and GG certainly isn't one of my favorite people, nonetheless you need to make a judgement call before restoring any vehicle and rust, damage, condition the presence of original components, body stampings, VIN tags, fender tags and yes, documentation are all going to play a part in determining the suitability of a car for a resto.

FWIW, I don't have the BS for my car but I wish I did.

Dave

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 04:27 PM

Quote:

....the rhetoric opining that documentation shouldn't be worth anything is largely irrelevant...

Hi Dave! I don't think that anyone is trying to say that the Broadcast sheet should not be "worth anything." The problem is that in some respects, the paperwork has become more significant than the actual vehicle it supposedly represents. Here is a scenario that actually happened a few years ago to a customer of mine. He bought a car but it did not have the Broadcast sheet when he bought it. At a later date he was contacted by the seller who said that he had come across some items (paperwork) while cleaning out his file cabinet. The seller wanted more money, NOT for the paperwork but for THE CAR that he had sold him a few months earlier! He would have been better off to tell the guy he wanted X amount for the Build sheet but he actually said the car was NOW worth more than what he sold it for! He said he would only give up the paperwork if the buyer agreed to pay the additional amount! While that PERCEPTION of value may have been true, what actually changed about the car? Did the vehicle morph itself into a different model when the paper work was discovered? Absolutely not! The car was exactly what it was regardless of the paperwork being found. Finding the Build sheet allowed the car to accurately be verified but in reality NOTHING changed with what he bought. (At least it was no longer a candidate for a parts car!

)

It is similar to saying that a stick of gum isn't worth chewing unless you keep the wrapper! Having the wrapper might make you "feel better" about knowing that someone else hasn't touched it but there is no change in the actual piece of gum! What is more important....the gum or the wrapper? Paperwork only brings reassurance to the buyer or owner of the car. Sometimes paperwork adds value to a vehicle that is worth LESS than it actually is. Isn't THAT just as bad as "faking" paperwork to add value to a car? Why should "real" paperwork allow a lessor car to somehow be considered more valuable? Same logic only in reverse! It is the proverbial cart before the horse. How can one be acceptable while the other frowned upon?

PS....Speaking of gum wrappers, when I was a kid I chewed one of those aluminum wrappers that Juicy Fruit gum sticks come in

and thought I had bit into a ball of needles! You can't do that when you have metal dental fillings.

Posted By: Spode

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 04:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

....the rhetoric opining that documentation shouldn't be worth anything is largely irrelevant...

Here is a scenario that actually happened a few years ago to a customer of mine. He bought a car but it did not have the Broadcast sheet when he bought it. At a later date he was contacted by the seller who said that he had come across some items (paperwork) while cleaning out his file cabinet. The seller wanted more money, NOT for the paperwork but for THE CAR that he had sold him a few months earlier! He would have been better off to tell the guy he wanted X amount for the Build sheet but he actually said the car was NOW worth more than what he sold it for! He said he would only give up the paperwork if the buyer agreed to pay the additional amount!

His fault if he thinks it was worth more based on his lack of leg work.

scum bag seller

1) I found tbe BC sheet for your car would you like to buy it?

2) Hey I found the BC sheet come by and pick it up

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 05:08 PM

Quote:

Here is a scenario that actually happened a few years ago to a customer of mine. He bought a car but it did not have the Broadcast sheet when he bought it. At a later date he was contacted by the seller who said that he had come across some items (paperwork) while cleaning out his file cabinet. The seller wanted more money, NOT for the paperwork but for THE CAR that he had sold him a few months earlier! He would have been better off to tell the guy he wanted X amount for the Build sheet but he actually said the car was NOW worth more than what he sold it for! He said he would only give up the paperwork if the buyer agreed to pay the additional amount!

Yeah, there are all kinds of

people out there and that guy certainly qualifies.....then again, I'm sure some people think the same way about me because I think a BS should be free to the person owning the car if found and a #'s motor or tranny is worth the same as a nice replacement.

I bought a house a while back and after the transaction was complete (I paid full asking price BTW), the seller found the survey certificate and offered to sell it to me for $200.00
This pce of paper was garbage to him, but I told him he could ram it and I'd pay the $500.00 to get a new survey done before I'd give him one red cent for the certificate he had......this analogy seems very similar to someone holding a BS ransom IMO.

.....and yes, before anyone suggests otherwise, I would certainly GIVE someone a BS for a vehicle they owned free of charge and I don't care if it's a Hemicuda.....right is right.

Dave

Posted By: Mastershake340

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 05:57 PM

I sent the 2 T/A broadcast sheets I found in my car to the cars owner years ago free of charge (I even paid for the postage) and would do the same today.
A few years later the dealer sales paperwork for my car turned up and the seller wanted a pretty penny for it considering it wasn't worth anything to anybody but me. I eventually broke down and bought my sales packet. The guy who had it did put a lot of work sorting through a bunch of decades old paperwork to find documentation for specific cars, so he deserved compensation for that, but it is still a good question as to how much is reasonable for selling paperwork to the only person in the world it has value to?
As far as sending a broadcast sheet one finds in his car to the owner of the car the sheet goes with, other than postage, there is no justification to charge anything IMO. But if someone collected a bunch of sheets over the years from cars they parted or found in cars he owned that had non-matching sheets, and then put time into sorting them out and trying to track down the cars they belonged to, then I think he deserves some compensation for his time.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 06:50 PM

To me, an original fender tag, broadcast sheet, factory invoice or window sticker is a unique page of history.

My definitions;

Original - This one is obvious.

Reproduction - An exact copy of the original with NOTHING guessed at.

Fake - Someone had to guess at something to make it, SPDs & VONs are commonly pulled out of thin air as two examples.

The first two do not alter history in any way, the fakes do.

I also believe that any item found should be free to the legal owner of the car. (My definition of legal does not include rebodied cars, I have denied items to folks who have cars with legal issues.)

With over 7000 items here waiting to be claimed for free (even the ones I had to buy), I try & set a good example for everyone.

That is how I feel about it & I am not going to argue with anyone that feels differently, I have better things do do with my time.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 07:08 PM

Ok....I have to disagree with some of the logic here...

Lets say you have two identical cars, both RESTORED equally yet one has lots of documentation and the other has none.

Are you saying both cars have the same value?

I don't believe so....

In fact if I had a very rare unique car and someone one offered to sell me the original BCS I would gladly pay a reasonable amount for it, same as a numbers matching engine or transmission, because in my opinion, all those things add value to a car.

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 07:29 PM

Quote:

I also believe that any item found should be free to the legal owner of the car. (My definition of legal does not include rebodied cars, I have denied items to folks who have cars with legal issues.)

With over 7000 items here waiting to be claimed for free (even the ones I had to buy), I try & set a good example for everyone.

That is how I feel about it & I am not going to argue with anyone that feels differently, I have better things do do with my time.

If everyone in the hobby thought the way you do, it'd would be a better hobby to be in!

You go "above and beyond" as I would suggest you'd still be doing the hobby a big favor even if you did charge a nominal fee for your expenses never mind stuff you actually paid money for (usually to keep it out of the hands of the unscrupulous!)

Cheers,
Dave

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 07:34 PM

It is definitely an admirable gesture to be benevolent with something of perceived (or actual) value but the point I was trying to make had to do with the actual vehicle. Prior to the Broadcast sheet being found, what changed about the car? How did finding the paperwork change anything regarding what the car was or represented? Nothing! The guy wanted another $1500 for finding the Broadcast sheet. In essence, the seller was taking a lean against the "new found" value of the vehicle. The logic has to work in both directions. You shouldn't be able to use the paperwork to SIGNIFICANTLY increase the value of a vehicle that has been manipulated or messed with. If a car (that is no longer original) can be verified with a Broadcast sheet, then why can't an all original car be the verification to obtain reproduction paperwork? For instance, lets say that you find a 440 Six Pack that no longer has it's original engine. The color has also been changed from what it originally was. The VIN plate and fender tag verify what the car was prior to being converted and altered. If that car was sold, would it be less valuable because the Broadcast Sheet was missing? Would the EXACT same vehicle be worth MORE just because the Broadcast Sheet was with it? Is the value of ANY car based on what IT actually is or what a piece of paper says it is?

Pretty soon we will be discussing whether a tree makes noise when it falls IF no one is around to hear it!

Posted By: dilvoy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 09:04 PM

Well since we are all talking about Broadcast sheets that were found in cars........
Tucked behind the Springs of the seat back of the rear seat of my '67 Sport Fury Convertible, I found three Broadcast Sheets. Two were for my car and one was for a C Body Dodge Convertible that also had the L code engine. I figured that all three of these were part of the history of my car. Any opinions?

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 09:08 PM

One more opinion.....

The word "value" keeps coming up. To me, the value is in enjoying the car, whether it is a racer, daily driver, project or a trailer queen. Your enjoyment of your car is where the true value is.

If I looked at one of my cars & just saw $$$$ signs, I would be looking for a new hobby.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 10:27 PM

Quote:

One more opinion.....

The word "value" keeps coming up. To me, the value is in enjoying the car, whether it is a racer, daily driver, project or a trailer queen. Your enjoyment of your car is where the true value is.

If I looked at one of my cars & just saw $$$$ signs, I would be looking for a new hobby.

You must be a very rich man

See for me it's different...I have a wife and kids, mortgage, etc...So it's very hard for me to justify spending lots of money on a toy to 'enjoy" without knowing I got something (an assest) that is worth the money I spent.

It would be great to always be able to invest $100K in a car that worth $50K for the "enjoyment of the car" but I just can't make fianancial sense of that....niether could my wife.

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 10:54 PM

Quote:

It is definitely an admirable gesture to be benevolent with something of perceived (or actual) value but the point I was trying to make had to do with the actual vehicle. Prior to the Broadcast sheet being found, what changed about the car? How did finding the paperwork change anything regarding what the car was or represented? Nothing! The guy wanted another $1500 for finding the Broadcast sheet. In essence, the seller was taking a lean against the "new found" value of the vehicle. The logic has to work in both directions. You shouldn't be able to use the paperwork to SIGNIFICANTLY increase the value of a vehicle that has been manipulated or messed with. If a car (that is no longer original) can be verified with a Broadcast sheet, then why can't an all original car be the verification to obtain reproduction paperwork? For instance, lets say that you find a 440 Six Pack that no longer has it's original engine. The color has also been changed from what it originally was. The VIN plate and fender tag verify what the car was prior to being converted and altered. If that car was sold, would it be less valuable because the Broadcast Sheet was missing? Would the EXACT same vehicle be worth MORE just because the Broadcast Sheet was with it? Is the value of ANY car based on what IT actually is or what a piece of paper says it is?

Pretty soon we will be discussing whether a tree makes noise when it falls IF no one is around to hear it!

Finding the broadcast sheet changed everything. It validated/verified/authenticated what the car REALLY is and that makes it more valuable/desirable/marketable. I had a previous owner hold a broadcast sheet ransom from me once. My car was a Black Hemi RR with a very unusual stripe combination. Until that sheet showed up there was no way to prove the color and stripe combination was authentic to my car. So did getting the broadcast sheet change things. Yes!!!. The car would have cost me much more had the sheet been with it when I bought it. The second owner was the one that had the sheet, I bought the car from the 4th owner. So, paying his ransom was justified but certainly not what I would have done. If I had the sheet or any form of documentation for a car belonging to someone else it would be given free to the owner, only a gesture of appreciation would be necessary. I also have another Black 69 RR with V21 hood stripes and V7R Red accent stripes. I have two broadcast sheets, the original window sticker and the original fender tag for that car! Without all of that stuff I would have never even looked at buying that car. To me, factory authentication of rare colors, options, etc is important and is what drives the values. That's why clones are worth less than fully documented factory built cars. An analogy of a gum wrapper to a broadcast sheet is absurd!

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 11:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

....the rhetoric opining that documentation shouldn't be worth anything is largely irrelevant...

Hi Dave! I don't think that anyone is trying to say that the Broadcast sheet should not be "worth anything." The problem is that in some respects, the paperwork has become more significant than the actual vehicle it supposedly represents. Here is a scenario that actually happened a few years ago to a customer of mine. He bought a car but it did not have the Broadcast sheet when he bought it. At a later date he was contacted by the seller who said that he had come across some items (paperwork) while cleaning out his file cabinet. The seller wanted more money, NOT for the paperwork but for THE CAR that he had sold him a few months earlier! He would have been better off to tell the guy he wanted X amount for the Build sheet but he actually said the car was NOW worth more than what he sold it for! He said he would only give up the paperwork if the buyer agreed to pay the additional amount! While that PERCEPTION of value may have been true, what actually changed about the car? Did the vehicle morph itself into a different model when the paper work was discovered? Absolutely not! The car was exactly what it was regardless of the paperwork being found. Finding the Build sheet allowed the car to accurately be verified but in reality NOTHING changed with what he bought. (At least it was no longer a candidate for a parts car! )

It is similar to saying that a stick of gum isn't worth chewing unless you keep the wrapper! Having the wrapper might make you "feel better" about knowing that someone else hasn't touched it but there is no change in the actual piece of gum! What is more important....the gum or the wrapper? Paperwork only brings reassurance to the buyer or owner of the car. Sometimes paperwork adds value to a vehicle that is worth LESS than it actually is. Isn't THAT just as bad as "faking" paperwork to add value to a car? Why should "real" paperwork allow a lessor car to somehow be considered more valuable? Same logic only in reverse! It is the proverbial cart before the horse. How can one be acceptable while the other frowned upon?

PS....Speaking of gum wrappers, when I was a kid I chewed one of those aluminum wrappers that Juicy Fruit gum sticks come in and thought I had bit into a ball of needles! You can't do that when you have metal dental fillings.

The only way a gum wrapper would be similar to a broadcast sheet is if there was a piece of poisonous gum and a piece of normal gum. The wrapper of each clearly says what each piece is. If the two sticks of gum looked the same the wrapper would be more important than the gum...

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 11:29 PM

Quote:

You must be a very rich man

I usully ignore you for reasons of my own. You know what assuming does? It fits you.

I cleared about $3000.00 for 2008.

2009 was better, $7802.00

The "fundraiser" I did here at the end of 2009 fed me for a month.

I have had less than 60 hours of work so far this year.

I just sold one of my cars so I could keep my house a little longer, hopefully long enough to sell it too.

Never assume anything about something you know absolutely nothing about.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/22/10 11:32 PM

Quote:

...Finding the broadcast sheet changed everything......So did getting the broadcast sheet change things. Yes!!!.

With all due respect, you have confused your sense of awareness with reality. The vehicle did not change! Your AWARENESS of the vehicle changed. You still had to "do" or "undo" whatever stage the vehicle was in at that particular time. Unless you own the real version of the car "CHRISTINE", I doubt that IT did anything to "change" what it was!

As far as the "gum wrapper" scenario, it is quite accurate. Both (broadcast sheets & gum wrappers) were a means to facilitate an end result for the MAIN PRODUCT. The Broadcast Sheets were "trash" once they served their purpose the same as the gum wrapper. Once you removed it...it became trash! Don't get me wrong. Both are important UNTIL they have served their purpose. Once again you have attempted to rationalize your perception of importance to explain the reality of the situation. Broadcast Sheets were NEVER considered an important piece of documentation by the Factory AFTER they served their purpose.

You don't like the gum wrapper analogy...how about this one? How many of us have ever assembled a Bar-B-Que Pit? Those instructions are VERY important during the build process are they not? What happens to them after the assembly is complete? Do you guys frame and laminate the Bar-B-Que Pit "build instructions" and keep them as a sacred piece of documentation? I doubt that anybody does. The Build Sheets were the same thing for the assembly line workers. Nothing more than a list of instructions on how to assemble the vehicle! After that.....throw them away!!! It is the Hobby that has made Build Sheets the sacred icons that they have become today.

Posted By: MoparABE

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 12:37 AM

Quote:

With all due respect, you have confused your sense of awareness with reality....Once again you have attempted to rationalize your perception of importance to explain the reality of the situation.

Broadcast Sheets were NEVER considered an important piece of documentation by the Factory AFTER they served their purpose.

Broadcast sheets are factory trash, I do not recall reading anyone saying the factory intended for them to be the golden ticket 40 years after their original use.

The factory never intended for these cars to be around 40 years later.

The reality of the situation is that in the real world, with real transactions occuring everyday, the buildsheet does add value.

It is an added validation and verification above and beyond the fender tag, VIN tag, window sticker etc. of what the factory workers built.

Would you buy a prize poodle for top dollar w/out a pedigree? I think not...The same applys here.

With real money changing hands, buildsheet=added value. That is the reality.

John

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 12:51 AM

Quote:

The reality of the situation is that in the real world, with real transactions occuring everyday, the buildsheet does add value.

It adds intrinsic value John. It does not change the "reality" of what the car is. If you have been following this thread almost everything you stated has already been expressed in various ways. One of the pitfalls of a Broadcast Sheet (as it relates to current market value) is that it can make a car of lessor value (a basket case, an incorrect restoration, etc...) more valuable because of what it COULD be, rather than what it actually is.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:06 AM

Quote:

If I looked at one of my cars & just saw $$$$ signs, I would be looking for a new hobby

Quote:

I just sold one of my cars so I could keep my house a little longer, hopefully long enough to sell it too.

It's safe to assume I'm now confused

Posted By: MoparABE

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:06 AM

Quote:

One of the pitfalls of a Broadcast Sheet (as it relates to current market value) is that it can make a car of lessor value (a basket case, an incorrect restoration, etc...) more valuable because of what it COULD be, rather than what it actually is.

I get what you are typing but who determines the value? The seller?, the buyer?, the Mopar gods?

Would you agree that a car is only worth as much as a potential buyer is willing to spend be it an OE winner, incorrect restoration or basket case.

I see your point in let's say an auction format but in any other scenario, I have to think anyone holding a broadcast sheet in high regard is doing their homework before a purchase is made.

I don't think anyone is buying a body shell, cool-whip container of bolts and a broadcast sheet and smiling on their way home that they just scored $$$! lol.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:10 AM

Quote:

It is an added validation and verification above and beyond the fender tag, VIN tag, window sticker etc. of what the factory workers built

The Window Sticker and Factory Invoice is the Holy Grail of paperwork. It tells EVERYTHING and MUCH MORE than the Broadcast Sheet. The Broadcast Sheet does not tell the actual production or sell date of the car, the Dealership it was sold to, the routing code from the Plant to the Dealership, The Dealer Code, the Zone Code, the wholesale price of the vehicle, the E.H. & O/markup costs, the hold back amount, the key codes, the list #'s, the Financier holding the Title, etc.... As I said in an earlier post, the Hobby has been brainwashed into thinking something that is not factually accurate. The Invoice AND the Window Sticker holds 100% more validity regarding documentation than ANY Broadcast Sheet.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:10 AM

Let me get this straight....
birth certificates
Diamonds
gum wrappers
BBQ instructions
poodles

Did I miss any?

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:14 AM

Quote:

The Window Sticker and Factory Invoice is the Holy Grail of paperwork. It tells EVERYTHING and MUCH MORE than the Broadcast Sheet. The Broadcast Sheet does not tell the actual production or sell date of the car, the Dealership it was sold to, the routing code from the Plant to the Dealership, The Dealer Code, the Zone Code, the wholesale price of the vehicle, the E.H. & O/markup costs, the hold back amount, the key codes, the list #'s, the Financier holding the Title, etc.... As I said in an earlier post, the Hobby has been brainwashed into thinking something that is not factually accurate. The Invoice AND the Window Sticker holds 100% more validity regarding documentation than ANY Broadcast Sheet.

That's a load of crap....
Those documents metioned won't tell you carb numbers, shock part numbers, colour of the steering column...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...

Posted By: MoparABE

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

It is an added validation and verification above and beyond the fender tag, VIN tag, window sticker etc. of what the factory workers built

The Window Sticker and Factory Invoice is the Holy Grail of paperwork. It tells EVERYTHING and MUCH MORE than the Broadcast Sheet. The Broadcast Sheet does not tell the actual production or sell date of the car, the Dealership it was sold to, the routing code from the Plant to the Dealership, The Dealer Code, the Zone Code, the wholesale price of the vehicle, the E.H. & O/markup costs, the hold back amount, the key codes, the list #'s, the Financier holding the Title, etc.... As I said in an earlier post, the Hobby has been brainwashed into thinking something that is not factually accurate. The Invoice AND the Window Sticker holds 100% more validity regarding documentation than ANY Broadcast Sheet.

I understand that point, I did type that it was an ADDED validation. To the restorer however, the broadcast sheet has far more useful information relating to parts implementation.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:20 AM

Quote:

I don't think anyone is buying a body shell, cool-whip container of bolts and a broadcast sheet and smiling on their way home that they just scored $$$! lol.

Don't be so sure! I can tell you that I know for a fact, one of the "big" names in the Hobby had a car(?) that was LITERALLY delivered in the back of a pickup truck, CERTIFIED as a matching numbers vehicle because it had a Build sheet with the PARTS! Now can anyone explain to me how THAT is any less ethical than having a "fake" build sheet made that is technically accurate/correct for the car it was intended to represent?!?!?! Who deemed this form of hypocrisy as an accepted means for documenting cars?

Posted By: Scatransit

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:27 AM

Your right, an original build sheet does not change the "...reality of what a car is...".

It does, however, establish the reality of its value.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:31 AM

Quote:

Your right, an original build sheet does not change the "...reality of what a car is...".

It does, however, establish the reality of its value.

Well said

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:36 AM

Quote:

Your right, an original build sheet does not change the "...reality of what a car is...".

Actually it can.

Case in point.....

Car gets bought with the fender tag missing & no documentation at all. It gets "restored" with a fake tag & optioned up.

An original broadcast sheet is found in another car, thus proving the tag was a fake & liberties were taken.

Which "reality" is real?

It has happened a few times. If the current owner did that tag, no sheet for them.

If they owner got taken & bought it that way, the tag gets destroyed before they get the sheet.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:37 AM

Quote:

That's a load of crap....
Those documents metioned won't tell you carb numbers, shock part numbers, colour of the steering column...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...ETC...

If you knew how to read the items of the documents that I mentioned Alan, you wouldn't embarrass yourself by making such ignorant statements. Where will you find the HB code on a build-sheet? What about the list# of the car? How about the actual production date of the vehicle? Things like the "carb" codes can be found in any assembly manual Alan. Can the assembly manual tell you the correct Zone code for your Barrel Cuda? What about an EP Ignition code or the ES key codes? Where does your build-sheet tell you all of that Alan?. You can think its a load of "crap" but I will blow you in the dirt any day of the week with the literature I have access to for documenting a vehicle WITHOUT A BROADCAST SHEET. Do yourself a favor and "know" the facts before you ignorantly dismiss something and embarrass yourself publicly!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:40 AM

Quote:

It does, however, establish the reality of its value.

Reality does not define value. The price someone is willing to pay only serves as a temporary guideline for the "value".

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:49 AM

Quote:

Car gets bought with the fender tag missing & no documentation at all. It gets "restored" with a fake tag & optioned up.

Which "reality" is real?

Once again the car didn't change! The "reality" of understanding the condition of the car, in relation to what should be, is what the Broadcast sheet has allowed. It provides a starting point for the buyer to do and spend whatever it takes to make it representative of what the build sheet conveys! This of course is what makes it beneficial. It once again takes on it's original role as a build/component informational guide!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:53 AM

Dave you need to re-read what you wrote...
" It tells EVERYTHING and MUCH MORE than the Broadcast Sheet"

I agree it tells you a lot more but the window sticker will not tell you EVERYTHING and more. It will tell you a lot of info that is not on the BCS as you mentioned but it does not incude all the info that is found on a BCS....

Yes you can find out the correct carb numbers in other manuals and such but how can you prove your car was BUILT with the carb a manual says? Only the BCS can tell you that info and more, a lot more.

I'm not alone in this thread....

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:55 AM

" I will blow you in the dirt any day" Not sure I understand that, but it sure doesn't sound nice

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 02:04 AM

Quote:

" I will blow you in the dirt any day" Not sure I understand that, but it sure doesn't sound nice

Hey!...what happens in the "sandbox", stays in the "sandbox"

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 02:07 AM

Quote:

.....how can you prove your car was BUILT with the carb a manual says? Only the BCS can tell you that info and more, a lot more.
I'm not alone in this thread....

There you go again Alan! Nothing on a Broadcast sheet is a guarantee for what actually came on ANY car. I am sure that I don't have access to the Automobile information that you do but I am fairly confident that original vehicles I have documented had contradictions between their factory parts and the Broadcast Sheet. You make a mistake on the Invoice or the Monroney label and you are facing possible prison time! Make a mistake or substitute a part from the Broadcast sheet and all you get is a car with a variant part. Big Deal!! Would you care to guess which criteria is viewed as "more important" or critical with regards to quality control?

For the record Alan I don't get my information from the masses or from cowering down to peer pressure. I do my research, correctly investigate and collect the facts. I just confidently smile and go about my business when I am told that I am full of "crap." The reality of my work is never hindered by the incorrect assessments of others!

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 02:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...Finding the broadcast sheet changed everything......So did getting the broadcast sheet change things. Yes!!!.

With all due respect, you have confused your sense of awareness with reality. The vehicle did not change! Your AWARENESS of the vehicle changed. You still had to "do" or "undo" whatever stage the vehicle was in at that particular time. Unless you own the real version of the car "CHRISTINE", I doubt that IT did anything to "change" what it was!

As far as the "gum wrapper" scenario, it is quite accurate. Both (broadcast sheets & gum wrappers) were a means to facilitate an end result for the MAIN PRODUCT. The Broadcast Sheets were "trash" once they served their purpose the same as the gum wrapper. Once you removed it...it became trash! Don't get me wrong. Both are important UNTIL they have served their purpose. Once again you have attempted to rationalize your perception of importance to explain the reality of the situation. Broadcast Sheets were NEVER considered an important piece of documentation by the Factory AFTER they served their purpose.

You don't like the gum wrapper analogy...how about this one? How many of us have ever assembled a Bar-B-Que Pit? Those instructions are VERY important during the build process are they not? What happens to them after the assembly is complete? Do you guys frame and laminate the Bar-B-Que Pit "build instructions" and keep them as a sacred piece of documentation? I doubt that anybody does. The Build Sheets were the same thing for the assembly line workers. Nothing more than a list of instructions on how to assemble the vehicle! After that.....throw them away!!! It is the Hobby that has made Build Sheets the sacred icons that they have become today.

I do not agree AT ALL that the Broadcast Sheet was intended to be trashed after the car was built. If it was, then why were they placed in the seat springs and taped to the back of the glove box and elsewhere? They were placed there by the line workers on purpose, not "accidentily" thrown into the seat springs.

Have you ever talked with a line worker from back in the day about this, I have and they do not share your view at all!

Posted By: cataclysm80

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 03:00 AM

After chewing the gum for about 40 years, a gum collector might find the gum wrapper useful in determining the original size, shape, flavor, and brand of the gum.

Then he could add a little of the correct color, and try to smooth it back out to its original shape.

Food for thought?

(I understand what you're saying Dave, just couldn't resist sharing this amusing thought.)

Tav

Posted By: joelson6

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 03:10 AM

after reading through all this, documentation is documentation. the US Constitution IS this country's documentation, and is part of out history. just like any documentation on a car is part of that car's history. garbage or not garbage. weather or not it makes the car worth any more, is up to the buyer and seller.

i have the original fender tag, BC, 340 engine, 4sp trans, and dealer sales invoice for my 72 Challenger. i have good documentation on my car but does it make it worth more? only to the person who want's the car when I'm selling it.

don't reproduce documents and pass them off a original. that's just bad taste.

Posted By: BS27R1B

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 04:37 AM

Original window stickers are great but very very very few survived long with a car.
Most were removed and 'trashed' by the dealer before delivery to the customer. I would suggest that far more window stickers found their way to the trash can than Broadcast Sheets.

Just think about it. How many of us have been delivered the original window sticker with any car they have bought? Old or new?

And as far as the dealer invoice, they certainly are far fewer than the original window sticker.

I have owned many cars that had their Broadcast Sheet. I have owned several cars that did not have their sheet when I bought them but ended up with their original sheet at some point.

I have owned less than 10 cars that had their original wind sticker and less than 6 that had a factory invoice.

I agree they are great but the chances of having them make them a little icing on the cake. No more.

I do not need a sheet to be present to buy a car but there are many, many buyers out there that keep on looking if there is no sheet.

I can also see the point that there have been cars built from a sheet or fender tag. I would not promote these activities and have been vocal on this issue many times.

There are many variables to consider when purchasing a car and while documentation is important it is down the list a little for me. I look at documentation as a bonus.

AS far as creating any documantation for a car I do not understand the logic.
Is there some inadequacy an owner feels if their's is missing?

Or is the a need to alter the past?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 05:01 AM

Quote:

I do not agree AT ALL that the Broadcast Sheet was intended to be trashed after the car was built. If it was, then why were they placed in the seat springs and taped to the back of the glove box and elsewhere? They were placed there by the line workers on purpose, not "accidentily" thrown into the seat springs. Have you ever talked with a line worker from back in the day about this, I have and they do not share your view at all!

Rather than be me bore everyone else with redundancy Jim, you might go back and see the explanations given for employees discarding the Broadcast Sheets in the manner that they did. Does anyone have any idea how many Broadcast Sheets came with a particular vehicle? There were as many as 60 of these instruction sheets that were manufactured with a car. EVERY item and assembly station had a Build Sheet that specified the part that was suppose to be installed on a vehicle. Using your rationale Jim, if they were meant to be kept, where did the other 55 (give or take a few) end up? Were some line workers under a different set of rules and told that they could discard them while others were told that they were "important documents" NOT to be discarded? (And yes Jim I have bi-yearly meetings with some of the top brass at Chrysler in Auburn Hills and make it a point to ask about the old days at Chrysler. I am sure you don't consider that as reliable as your information sources but at least it keeps me humored and occupied while I am there.)

Lets do something a little different and use some common sense as it pertains to the subject matter. If you look at ALL the places that are continuously referenced for finding Broadcast Sheets, what is the one thing that they all have in common? Thats right! They are areas that made it easy for the employees to hide them with minimal effort. Where is just ONE original photo showing cars that were plastered with Broadcast Sheets all over the assembled parts? Why don't people find them taped to the steering wheel? Why not taped to the wheel covers? Why didn't they get taped on the rear package tray or rear window defroster units? Why weren't they found on the radio or dome light or air conditioner controls or seat belts or electric window controls, or the visible side of the headliner, etc....! The reason why? They were meant to be discarded after the employees followed their "call out" instructions for the parts that were used during assembly. It was easy for certain workers to "hide" them with minimal effort. If you installed the carpet....throw it under the padding and move to the next car! Do you think that the workers thought the inspectors would rip it up during inspection to see what might be under there? If you believe THAT, then you would have to assume that the final inspection consisted of tearing the entire car apart! The workers didn't have to walk to their trash containers or worry about their work stations over flowing with hundreds of these instruction sheets. Bill Embree said that some guys teased each other about having to "properly" throw them away while others got off easy by being able to "hide" them!

And what about the LA plant? Were those workers completely insubordinate and decided to just about throw everyone away? When I asked the reason you didn't find them in LA vehicles, I was told they operated under a very strict assembly line "cleanliness" code. I guess Doug Craig of Chrysler must have just flat out lied to me!

It appears that our sources have completely different views as to how things were done on the assembly line Jim! Just for the record, I can assure you that I do not fabricate fictitious stories and then proceed to substantiate them with imaginary testimonies. You would be surprised how many people will concoct theories in an an attempt to just be "right" while involved in these debates.

Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 05:06 AM

I have a broadcast sheet and the dealer's Bill of Sale for my car. The BOS is written to look just like a window sticker. The BOS does not tell me everything that the BC sheet tells me. The Lynch Road fender tag does not have all the info on it...like what radio. Also, some fender tag reproducers will put whatever option you want on one except for motor and trans combo. The BC sheet is a valuable piece of information to help restore and authenticate your car. I think A34HPAxle is correct in saying it adds reality to the value. For a completely rotisserie restored car, the BC sheet is like having some of the original DNA for the car. It's definitely something that should not be reproduced (faked)! A reproduction BC sheet would not help me decide to buy a car. It would be embarassing to display it.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 05:12 AM

Quote:

After chewing the gum for about 40 years, a gum collector might find the gum wrapper useful in determining the original size, shape, flavor, and brand of the gum.

Then he could add a little of the correct color, and try to smooth it back out to its original shape.

Food for thought?

Hey Tav! Your analogy is actual a perfect comparison. Forty years after the fact, the wrappers might be used for your illustrated purpose! I wonder however.....what was the purpose of the wrapper when it was made 40 years ago? A very similar analogy to the Broadcast Sheets indeed.

Come to think of it....do you think that stamps in a Stamp Collection are being used for the purpose in which they were manufactured?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 05:19 AM

Quote:

I think A34HPAxle is correct in saying it adds value

I believe that EVERYONE who has said that it adds "value" is correct! However, the absence of one does not automatically deem a car worthless or of less "value".

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 05:29 AM

For some that may be interested the Winged Warriors/Superbird-B Body Owners site has a few excerps from "current" interveiws with Ex Chrysler line workers/supervisors from the 60-70's

example:

Attached picture 5942102-bs1.JPG

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 12:17 PM

Hey Mike,
Hope you are doing well. Why in the world would you want to ruin a perfectly good debate by posting those silly/insignificant FACTS!

(I'm sure we will have someone try to "spin" or dismiss your factual attachment. Thanks for posting it.)

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think A34HPAxle is correct in saying it adds value

I believe that EVERYONE who has said that it adds "value" is correct! However, the absence of one does not automatically deem a car worthless or of less "value".

How can you say it adds value and is not worth less in the same sentence? A car without a broadcast sheet is worth less that if it has one. EXAMPLE, I can't tell you how many times I have bought a car or helped others car owners look through thier cars and have found the original broadcast sheet inside somewhere! When that happens the car automaticaly becomes worth more. It's the same car as it was before the broadcast sheet was located but now it's worth more. And the reason is because these cars have become collectors items and collectors pay a premium for paperwork documentation. A racer or a clone builder wouldn't give two sh!ts about a broadcast sheet but the collectors in this world covet it! It makes NO difference that those sheets were supposed to be trash after used to assemble the car. The fact is the ones that remain are a part of the whole package when a collector is seeking a car.

Posted By: BS27R1B

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:40 PM

Quote:

And yes Jim I have bi-yearly meetings with some of the top brass at Chrysler in Auburn Hills and make it a point to ask about the old days at Chrysler

And those people really had a clue what went on in the factory 40 years ago.

I am sure the assembly line workers followed the company protocols to a 'T' each and every day 24X7.

What about those deviant buggers in LA that actually put a Broadcast sheet in a car? Were they sought out and made to walk the plank for not throwing the 'trash' in the trash can?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:43 PM

Quote:

How can you say....

Eric..... it is a free Country. Think whatever you wish and do whatever makes you happy! Come to think of it, some of you guys who have argued just for the sake of arguing have FINALLY prompted (actually encouraged) me to see the light. I have decided to call Chrysler and obtain proper licensing to manufacture reproduction Broadcast Sheets!! It shouldn't be too difficult, as I already had preliminary approval a few months ago. I guarantee that NO ONE will tell the difference from the those made in 1970 and the ones we manufacture today. Have a great weekend!

Posted By: HPMike

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 01:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think A34HPAxle is correct in saying it adds value

I believe that EVERYONE who has said that it adds "value" is correct! However, the absence of one does not automatically deem a car worthless or of less "value".

How can you say it adds value and is not worth less in the same sentence? A car without a broadcast sheet is worth less that if it has one. EXAMPLE, I can't tell you how many times I have bought a car or helped others car owners look through thier cars and have found the original broadcast sheet inside somewhere! When that happens the car automaticaly becomes worth more. It's the same car as it was before the broadcast sheet was located but now it's worth more. And the reason is because these cars have become collectors items and collectors pay a premium for paperwork documentation. A racer or a clone builder wouldn't give two sh!ts about a broadcast sheet but the collectors in this world covet it! It makes NO difference that those sheets were supposed to be trash after used to assemble the car. The fact is the ones that remain are a part of the whole package when a collector is seeking a car.

I think you missed his point...

Yes, it adds value(as would any pertinent paperwork), but there have been many occasions where a car without a BC sheet has sold for more than a comparable car that had one. Many factors figure in. If the car has a desirable color combo, or has a particular feature that appeals to a particular buyer-he might forego the presence of the sheet.

Put it this way. ALL cars came with a fender tag, so if the car is missing the tag, then it's a huge detraction to the provenance of the car. On the other hand there were many vehicles that NEVER had a sheet when new, so it's less of a downgrade when the sheet is not present.

MB

Posted By: BS27ROB

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 02:15 PM

Quote:

I have decided to call Chrysler and obtain proper licensing to manufacture reproduction Broadcast Sheets!! It shouldn't be too difficult, as I already had preliminary approval a few months ago. I guarantee that NO ONE will tell the difference from the those made in 1970 and the ones we manufacture today. Have a great weekend!

Dave,

Why would you want to waste your time reproducing what you have deemed to be trash?

Posted By: srt

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 02:47 PM

bs27rob, out of curiosity how were you able to reunite your cars with missing paperwork?
My car had bs sheet from another vehicle it it. I sent it to Galen in 1988.
I've checked with him, looked on alaska ta's site, this site and a couple others, checked with the dealership (who provided me with 2 invoices and the original owners sales contract). The bs sheet may be in some other registry or in the hands of someone looking to sell, or maybe attached to a cloned vehicle?
I agree that having the original sheet would be nice. I have no question of how our car was equipped having the car, fender tag, certicard, transfer from original owner to me and above referenced docs, but still feel incomplete with it lacking provenance (the origin or source from which something comes, and the history of subsequent owners).

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 03:23 PM

Quote:

Why would you want to waste your time reproducing what you have deemed to be trash?

You are joking....right?!? I NEVER "deemed" them to be "trash"! I simply stated THE FACT that they were considered "trash" by the factory back in the day. The factory didn't "deem" these cars to be collectible but many of us (including myself) believe that they are!

I wonder when someone will miss quote THAT statement by saying that I don't consider these cars to be collectible?

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 03:30 PM

Quote:

Eric..... it is a free Country. Think whatever you wish and do whatever makes you happy! Come to think of it, some of you guys who have argued just for the sake of arguing have FINALLY prompted (actually encouraged) me to see the light. I have decided to call Chrysler and obtain proper licensing to manufacture reproduction Broadcast Sheets!! It shouldn't be too difficult, as I already had preliminary approval a few months ago. I guarantee that NO ONE will tell the difference from the those made in 1970 and the ones we manufacture today. Have a great weekend!

You are going to lose a lot of contacts if you do make them.

I am sure I will be able to spot the fakes. Maybe not all the time, but some info on them has to be guessed at like line sequence & print times. One faker already used a line sequence from another sheet with his "guess". I track the real numbers, so sooner or later, even if the sheets are perfect in every other way, I will find out.

As far as this goes;

Quote:

some of you guys who have argued just for the sake of arguing

That fits you quite well David, think about it.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 03:37 PM

Quote:

ECS was also given approval to manufacture reproduction Broadcast Sheets (with certain restrictions) but refused the opportunity due to the negative fallout that might result.

Just bringing this up again since you either changed your mind or are

maybe?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 03:49 PM

Since you have decided to be so upfront and forthright Barry, I too have no problem with telling it like it is. YOU are one of those individuals who have made yourself a self proclaimed, self serving Mopar policeman. You have absolutely no jurisdiction or oversight over ANYTHING that you claim to stand for. Just to refresh your memory Barry, YOU have come to ME to stop the improprieties that threaten your "Truth, Justice and the Chrysler Way". NONE of the people who have authority over vehicle theft and fraud have ANY knowledge of who you are! Ivan Blackman, Cliff Cohen, Kathy Nagorny, Rick Karbowski, Charles Lazania, Dennis Mondrauch, just to name a few.....NONE of them have any knowledge of who you are or what you THINK you govern. So by all means continue to play the big shot on here on Moparts but know that there are some who know the truth! Don't worry about any "contacts" that you think I might "lose". After reading your post about your trials and hardships, one would think that YOU need to worry about your own affairs. Quite honestly, I am surprised that a person of your self proclaimed importance hasn't conquered all of your adversities! Take care Barry!

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 04:10 PM

Quote:

Since you have decided to be so upfront and forthright Barry, I too have no problem with telling it like it is. YOU are one of those individuals who have made yourself a self proclaimed, self serving Mopar policeman. You have absolutely no jurisdiction or oversight over ANYTHING that you claim to stand for. Just to refresh your memory Barry, YOU have come to ME to stop the improprieties that threaten your "Truth, Justice and the Chrysler Way". NONE of the people who have authority over vehicle theft and fraud have ANY knowledge of who you are! Ivan Blackman, Cliff Cohen, Kathy Nagorny, Rick Karbowski, Charles Lazania, Dennis Mondrauch, just to name a few.....NONE of them have any knowledge of who you are or what you THINK you govern. So by all means continue to play the big shot on here on Moparts but know that there are some who know the truth! Don't worry about any "contacts" that you think I might "lose". After reading YOUR post about your trials and hardships, one would think that YOU need to worry about your own affairs. Quite honestly, I am surprised that a person of your self proclaimed importance hasn't conquered all of your adversities! Take care Barry!

I have never proclaimed to be anything except a student of history. Other folks label me.

You asked me to report folks selling fake broadcast sheets, so I did. I can stop doing that anytime, just ask.

The NICB & IAATI are big organizations, I have my contacts, you have yours.

I realize that who I am & what I do has very little importance in the large scheme of things also. You assume too much, very few folks here really know me, so I am not overly surprised.

I have had plenty of opportunities to "help" people come make up fake stuff for their cars, from some of the requestes I get, it would be a real money maker too. But my integrity is not for sale & never will be.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 04:17 PM

Remember the quote listed below Barry! Do you have any idea who it may have come from?

Never assume anything about something you know absolutely nothing about.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 04:20 PM

Am I assuming things about myself now?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 04:22 PM

Quote:

The NICB & IAATI are big organizations, I have my contacts,...

Who are they Barry? I'm just curious. There shouldn't be a problem telling us who they are....right? The next time I talk to those organizations I will make it a point to contact them and tell them "HELLO" from you. It is the least I can do!

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 04:40 PM

I have never been much of a name dropper. John V. Abounader at IAATI (NY) & Dave Droccaforte at NICB (CA). There was another guy, Ed Carlson I believe? NICB again. I lost his contact info in my last computer crash.

There have been others as well, but I report so much VIN fraud that quite honestly I do not remember the names of every LEO I have contacted.

Going to check up on me? If so, this may help with your investigation;

Attached picture 5942643-iaati.jpg

Posted By: joelson6

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 05:40 PM

Quote:

The factory didn't "deem" these cars to be collectible but many of us (including myself) believe that they are!

and that's the absolute truth

Posted By: BS27R1B

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 10:32 PM

Quote:

Since you have decided to be so upfront and forthright Barry, I too have no problem with telling it like it is. YOU are one of those individuals who have made yourself a self proclaimed, self serving Mopar policeman. You have absolutely no jurisdiction or oversight over ANYTHING that you claim to stand for. Just to refresh your memory Barry, YOU have come to ME to stop the improprieties that threaten your "Truth, Justice and the Chrysler Way". NONE of the people who have authority over vehicle theft and fraud have ANY knowledge of who you are! Ivan Blackman, Cliff Cohen, Kathy Nagorny, Rick Karbowski, Charles Lazania, Dennis Mondrauch, just to name a few.....NONE of them have any knowledge of who you are or what you THINK you govern. So by all means continue to play the big shot on here on Moparts but know that there are some who know the truth! Don't worry about any "contacts" that you think I might "lose". After reading your post about your trials and hardships, one would think that YOU need to worry about your own affairs. Quite honestly, I am surprised that a person of your self proclaimed importance hasn't conquered all of your adversities! Take care Barry!

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

You just have to have BROWN eyes!!

Posted By: BS27R1B

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 10:37 PM

Quote:

Who are they Barry? I'm just curious. There shouldn't be a problem telling us who they are....right? The next time I talk to those organizations I will make it a point to contact them and tell them "HELLO" from you. It is the least I can do!

Mr Hanky please get back in your box.

Posted By: BS27R1B

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 10:47 PM

Quote:

bs27rob, out of curiosity how were you able to reunite your cars with missing paperwork?

You might have got the wrong BS27R.

I have received or bought the original sheets for some of my cars from previous owners or people that 'collected' these items of interest. Just luck and sometimes well after I purchased the car.

I am also aware of a 71 440-6 Cuda that I used to own was at a small show 10-15 years after I owned it. A fellow walked up to the current owner and presented him with the original Broadcast Sheet for the car! Perfect stranger and I have no idea how he knew the car would be there but it happened. The car happened to be a well known car in the area and it never managed to get more than a few hundred miles from where it was sold new.

Just pointing out that strange things can happen. I also know for a fact that there were/are several active fender tag and Broadcast Sheet collectors and hoarders out there. We should all be as lucky as George was.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 10:51 PM

Here in Ontario there are a couple of people that collect BCS's
One of my customers BOUGHT his original BCS off of EBay...was more then happy to get it...

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 10:54 PM

Boy you guy's now have me all upset.My Superbird was one of those that never had a build sheet,when it comes time to let it go I guess I'll have to give it away.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/23/10 11:00 PM

Quote:

Boy you guy's now have me all upset.My Superbird was one of those that never had a build sheet,when it comes time to let it go I guess I'll have to give it away.

I sold my Superbird #302 WITH the BCS and the new owner had the car at Legendary Motor Cars in Milton Ontario...They proceeded to loose the BCS when they moved to their new building...
A couple years later I see the car with yet another new owner...He tells me that I must be the Jerk that's holding the BCS for ransom...That's what LMC told him when he bought it

Posted By: gomangoRTSE

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 01:39 AM

Quote:

Your right, an original build sheet does not change the "...reality of what a car is...".

It does, however, establish the reality of its value.

____________________________________________

I think this is exactly true. In life there are fewer hard "realities" than you think. Even in legal writings that are written in defining terms, the perception of those writings are disagreed upon. Thats why there are lawyers and courts. What one perceives as reality, another sees and defines it as something different.

When you buy a new car, the window sticker does in no way change the reality of what the car is. If it didnt have that window sticker, the reality of the car would still be the same. However the manufacturers creates a peceived reality of what is by telling you the manufacturers value of the car. You will then of course compare prices of the car to others similiar. When we buy, sell, trade anything each individual will have a little different perceived value of the product or service. So yes, I do believe a car with a buildsheet has a little higher value. The higher the value of the vehicle and its originality will compliment the documention and the documentation will compliment the car. My 70 RT/SE isnt a numbers matching California car, and I would place a low value on someone having the original broadcast sheet. However as had been said, if I had a high value original car, the accompanying documentation would help set a higher "monetary" value......which is perceived value of course. I think it most important to consider this: One mans reality is not necessarily another mans reality. Ive dated girls who I thought were beautiful only to be asked by a buddy why I was out with such a dog.

His reality and perception of value wasnt the same as mine.

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 02:03 AM

I guarantee that absolutley NO Chrysler "executives" or any other desk riders at Chrysler had any clue about what went on in the factory back then or even today!

I know several retired line workers that went out for lunch everyday, drank a couple quarts, smoked a couple doobies, then went back to the line.

They laugh at all the interest in fender tags, heck they used to make their own and put whatever codes they wanted on them!

The Broadcast Sheet (I capitalize them for a reason) means so much more than any other documentation that it is not even funny. I have seen VIN's with 12 digits, fender tags with obvious wrong codes, dislexic stampings on core supports and trunk lips, cars repainted a different color right over the first paint job from the factory, and numerous other issues that make you say HMMMMMM...

I will continue to put my faith in the Broadcast Sheet and will continue to appraise cars with a Broadcast Sheet at a higher value than one without and I am 100% sure that the majority in this hobby will agree with me.

As far as I am concerned, a reproduction Broadcast Sheet is exactly the same as my Charmin, but not on a roll...

Posted By: 69_SIX_PACK

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 03:03 AM

Is it just me or do we have more "Corvette" mentality guys around here than ever before. I can't wait til every Mopar you see is a 1 of 1 creation, complete with matching numbers, "offical documentation" etc

All in the name of greed.

"Pssst Hey those rich collector guys are saying your car isn't worth as much as their car because it doesn't have the factory documentation"

Really

You can get even though...

How

I can sell you some made up outta thin air documentation...just follow me and have your Credit Card Number handy...I am doing this for the litte guy and for the good of the hobby...hey and if I can line up my pockets with cash

I AM HAPPY

History is a great teacher....look at the Corvette hobby...if you don't have a numbers matching, "officially documented car" you are the red headed step child and got nothing...nothing of course until you step into the market created by people that sell "official documentation"

Great Marketing

Dave

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 03:31 AM

Quote:

You might have got the wrong BS...

No.......I would definitely have to agree that you were correctly identified for expressing the "real BS"!

Posted By: 68X426

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 04:43 AM

Hey Barry, you're a straight shooter in my book.

Hopefully you can let this nonsense fade away.

Posted By: Cudaworld

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 05:25 AM

Damn... I swore I wasn't going to post but can't resist...

How much is an OE GOLD Restored 1970 HEMI Cuda worth, Matching everything, gorgeous car but doesn't have any paperwork?

Ok,

How much is the exact same car with all paperwork, original receipts from 1970 - 2010, BCS, Insurance Card, Windows Sticker, owners manual, etc...?

Posted By: a12superbee

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 05:43 AM

Quote:

Damn... I swore I wasn't going to post but can't resist...

How much is an OE GOLD Restored 1970 HEMI Cuda worth, Matching everything, gorgeous car but doesn't have any paperwork?

Ok,

How much is the exact same car with all paperwork, original receipts from 1970 - 2010, BCS, Insurance Card, Windows Sticker, owners manual, etc...?

That's always what the question comes down to.

Two exact same cars, colors, options etc., one with a BS, one without;
Is one worth more or is the other worth less?
By what percent?

Posted By: Cudaworld

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 06:48 AM

Hardly worthless....

The car is what your buying, whether to restore or drive the piss out of doesn't matter. I believe the one with paperwork is worth more! How much, depends on how deep your pockets are or how much the seller paid for paper.

Seen far too many Cuda's without and original documentaton, making the oringinality of those cars way to difficult to validate.

The only reason the broadcast sheet became valuable is becasue the cars them selves appreciated to the orbit in such a relatively short period of time.

Posted By: pacifica

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 01:31 PM

Don't know about any of this non-sense...... but makes me glad I have a non numbers matching, non original, dented up, mopar driver that ain't worth next to nuthin.

This is all PURE ENTERTAINMENT!

There are alot of references to "the hobby" in this thread.

Seems to me that "hobby" and "buisness" and "value/greed" are all conflicting interests

I feel sorry for any of you who weren't around 30 years ago and involved with mopars. Those were by far the best times for "the hobby".

Either you had a numbers car with or without papers or you didn't. There was no reproduction yet, you either found nos at a show or you fixed what you had or you did without.

Best of all, there were NO pro vendors, just people showing what they had and selling there spares/extras.

There weren't any trailers either, everyone drove to and from..... ahhh the good ole' days!!!!

Off topic??? Who cares, It's all a big fricken circus anyhow

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 03:42 PM

Quote:

Either you had a numbers car with or without papers or you didn't. There was no reproduction yet, you either found nos at a show or you fixed what you had or you did without.

And nobody cared!

Posted By: joelson6

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 03:57 PM

WOW Pacifica,

that was great. that sums it up in a nutshell

i've got 2 with all the paperwork and a couple without. yes, i drive them all. i probably have less than 4 decades left on this planet, and that's being optimistic. i want to enjoy the cars while i'm here.

Posted By: cataclysm80

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 04:49 PM

Hi Dave, Are you really considering reproducing broadcast sheets? Since you just announced it, I imagine that you haven't gotten very far with product development on this project yet, but I had a few honest questions if you don't mind.

1. Will your broadcast sheets be licensed by Chrysler?

2. Will your broadcast sheets be clearly marked as reproductions/replacements somewhere on the sheet?

3. How will you gather info on the car that the sheet is for? (does the owner just fill out a worksheet or something?)

4. What will you do about information that should be on the sheet but is simply not available anywhere else? (Time stamp & sequence # for example)

5. Will the sheets be aged to appear old?

I really don't know much about your reproduction window stickers, but I am curious. Would you please answer those same questions about your window stickers?

Tav

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 05:07 PM

Actually if ECS steps up and does make reproduction Broadcast Sheets as Dave annouced, I think I'll get one for the Barrelcuda.
At this time I would like to add 15 X 7 ralley wheels and maybe bill boards

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 05:20 PM

Quote:

This is all PURE ENTERTAINMENT!

MASTER Steve!

Thank you for your correct assessment of how things are! I have been trying to (basically) express the same thing in my posts but for whatever reason, my comments are viewed as rude and threatening. I am pleased that you are able to make statements like this without being criticized or attacked. The only "real" importance to ANYTHING is maintained by the individual and how they feel about something. There are no absolute "rights" or "wrongs".

I visit this site and share factual documentation, untouched pictorial proof, corporate testimonials, factory photos, etc.... and you would think that I have committed a crime! Others are "Thanked" for similar efforts while I am constantly chastised! I have received DOZENS of phone calls and emails from people on this board telling me how "correct" I am and to keep on pushing past all of the "garbage". Nobody is aware of this because it is all done behind the scenes. If more folks had the courage to express their true feelings publicly (instead of through private messages) these topics might be better represented. I know why my comments are always being attacked and downgraded however. I was NEVER suppose to come on the scene and challenge the "establishments" or what they have preached for all of these years. The truth is that they are not really angry with me! They are angry with THEMSELVES for not taking take the time to do things right, therefore exposing THEIR OWN shortcomings! It is always easier to blame and attack someone else than it is to take personal responsibility.
Anyway, thanks for having the courage to come here and express your thoughts Steve!

Posted By: Steve340

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 05:20 PM

What options of any value are going to be on the option sheet that aren't on the fender tag? Just curious.

Posted By: Dave Watt

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 05:20 PM

I can just see it now. All the cars out there with extra options added will now claim they are original because they have a Broadcast sheet to back it up.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 05:45 PM

Quote:

Hi Dave, Are you really considering reproducing broadcast sheets? Since you just announced it, I imagine that you haven't gotten very far with product development on this project yet...

Hi Tav,
To the dismay and ill feelings of others here, I already HAVE made them! I have more than six variations and styles that perfectly represent the different assembly plants. Seven years ago "GG" made a comment in MCG that he could spot ANY reproduction that was made. That sounded like a challenge to me so I spent the next two years (off an on) reproducing the most accurate Build sheets ever made. I knew that these HAD to be perfect so every little detail, printing mistake and nuance was accurately reproduced. It then took over a year to correctly reproduce the fonts with varying degrees of shading and print inconsistencies. The actual sheets were printed (out of state) on the correct Heidelberg printing machines that were originally used to do these. I didn't just print one type or style! I knew that there were different variations with regards to the perforation cuts and collated edges. I had six different variations done covering 1969 thru 1970. The cost was a little over $22K to do all of this. The final test was when I had an anonymous person approach GG with my work and he "verified" it with no questions whatsoever! If he is reading this, then this will be his first awareness of it. For the record....No I do not sell them and will not sell them. They have already been submitted to Chrysler AND APPROVED but Dave Stuart thought it would not be a good idea to ever sell them. I respect Dave more than anyone else in this Hobby and have followed his advice. Anyone care to see them? How about a side by side comparison? This would allow Rinodart to see if he could actually pick out his favorite "wiping" utensils!

Posted By: BigMoneyLewis

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 05:58 PM

If someone does actually step up and start producing reproduction broadcast sheets , they will be at the top of the list , when it comes to shady characters .
Fabricated documentation is a big negative for everyone in this hobby. Their had been phoney
fender tags, window stickers , (under the table) dash VINS, Re-stamped blocks , etc. for years.
All the above have hurt this hobby . Countless buyers have been stung buying fake cars.
You either have your docs, or you don't.
If you don't, that's too damn bad .
Pulling documents out of thin air should not be an option.
If the reproduction sheets are not labled as reproductions, then , plain and simple, it's a matter of deception .
Intentions may be good, but those in favor of fabricated sheets are not thinking this thing through very well . Pretty much , all cars with legit documents will now be in question.
How does the average (or even above average) guy tell the real cars (and buildsheets)from the fakes ? Just like repro fender tags, dash VINs ,
window stickers, etc. these repro sheets WILL fall into the wrong hands, and WILL be used for financial gain by some . People used to be able to "trust" buildsheets . Now, all that trust will be taken away , just because some shi%a$$ wanted to make a little extra money when he decides to sell his car . Everybody knows they can "possibly" pull 10-15% more for a car with a sheet .So, now , everybody is going to have a sheet . It won't be long untill somebody parades
an FJ6 D21 AAR around with sheet , only to find out that the REAL sheet to that car was found in another AAR and is actually an FK5 D32 car .
We'll catch alot of these fakes, we may not catch them all , but you can't fool everybody , all the time.

Greg

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 06:11 PM

No need to worry Gene! These will never get out to the public. ECS is a very reputable company and will not ruin the reputation we have built with something so insignificant. (Or anything for that matter!) We recently were awarded an OE contract from a new electric automobile manufacturer and something as insignificant as making reproduction build-sheets does not even register as being important. For a brief time we had even contemplated discontinuing our classic reproduction line (entirely) to concentrate on our other products. No need to worry about that either. We just hired some new employees so we are moving ahead on all fronts! For those who are asking, "Then why did you make them?" The answer is simple. I wanted to!

Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 06:23 PM

Quote:

No need to worry Gene! These will never get out to the public. For those who are asking, "Then why did you make them?" The answer is simple.

...to increase the "value" of your own personal fleet???

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 06:51 PM

No....I have real ones! Where do you think I obtained the formats for some of the ones I reproduced? Besides, none of my cars are for sale nor will they ever will be! I don't need the money so I have given them to my children.....Erin, Conner and Sarah. (Also known as ECS!)

Posted By: joelson6

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 06:56 PM

hmmmmmm..............

i'm pretty sure that door stickers are being reproduced.

is that fraudulent or OK ? ? ? ? ?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 07:39 PM

Quote:

hmmmmmm..............
i'm pretty sure that door stickers are being reproduced.
is that fraudulent or OK ? ? ? ? ?

By asking that question Greg, you most likely will find the fine line at which some people's hypocrisy resides!

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 08:41 PM

"If more folks had the courage to express their true feelings publicly (instead of through private messages) these topics might be better represented. I know why my comments are always being attacked and downgraded however. I was NEVER suppose to come on the scene and challenge the "establishments" or what they have preached for all of these years. The truth is that they are not really angry with me! They are angry with THEMSELVES for not taking take the time to do things right, therefore exposing THEIR OWN shortcomings! It is always easier to blame and attack someone else than it is to take personal responsibility. "

Well said and I totally agree.
Jules

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 08:52 PM

Quote:

For the record....No I do not sell them and will not sell them.

Thank you.

Can you clarify if you will be making them for free though? Just checking since you did not say you would not be making any more, just that you would not sell them.

Posted By: gomangoRTSE

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 09:55 PM

Well let me step up publicly and say there is alot of hypocrisy and "better than thou" attitudes in here.

1. When many of us ask questions because we want to further know things, such as questions about fender tags etc, we get told "Oh well I wont say how come thats a bogus tag because you dont need to know." or "If I told you, then it would be easier for others to make a bogus tag."

We get the childlike treatment and the even more the most obnoxious "you'll have to take my word for it and shut up." kind of feeling. I suppose we should just look up to our Gods and accept the commandments like loyal disciples with no right to ask our svengali why something isnt right. This assumption only follows the theory that if I share my knowledge with you, then I might become less important or make less money or others will just be encouraged to cheat.

The IRS and other govt entities show you how to avoid problems, and helps with questions, I am glad they dont subscribe the theory above "If we tell them then someone will get around the system and cheat." No one person, business, or entity is greater than that of the hobby. When the 99.235% of us who have legitimate questions about our fender tags, build sheets or other documentation its because we are only concerned aboout our little world of owning 1 or 2 Mopars. If the information that the same 99.235% of gets makes it slightly more able for the 00.665% to cheat well thats part of it. The needs of the many outweight the greed of a few. The knowledge that the vast 99+% of us gains in order to keep from being cheated, keep from being scammed, and thereby enabling us to make a better informed opinion is far preferable than being treated like a child. An informed public makes informed decisions and thereby makes it harder for collusion and theft. I just cannot accept the "take my word for it" whether or not I send money or dont send money. I have to know why something isnt right.

Our hobby and this site seems to at times, have a hierarchy. Sometimes that hierarchy is offended or is competitive not only with each other but with the general public. I know alot of opinions I read here are based on "Hey this is how I make my living", and they will fight to the death defending a particular point of view. I see at times where our suppliers/vendors work in harmony to promote others products, and also when they butt heads and get brutally ugly with one another. The world of Mopar manufacturers, remanufacturers, reproductions/fake/whatever, or simply resellers of cars and parts is every bit as contentious as my old days in the Corvette world. Hmmmm perhaps they are even more ugly at times because the stakes are even higher.

But still all in all, I think each of our posters, and vendors contribute in their own way to the good of the hobby. I just disagree at times at the attitudes and inability to accept others points of view.

I judge a pesons analysis and point of view without regard to their income, standing, financial worth, or how many posts they have beneath their name. A good man is a good man, wherever he come from, or has obtained.

Finally and officially I advocate the reproduction of any documentation. With the respect to Reproduction Broadcast sheets, I have reread others opinions before running my own mouth off....again. You see I have a sharp tongue too. I think repro broadcast sheets should be available to the public providing each is clearly marked REPRODUCTION.

I have not mentioned any any names here, and I respect each of your opinions, if I have offended one over the other, you might want to see if the shoe fits. I even realize that if I had a high dollar Hemi car with ultra rare features, or more invested in the hobby I might feel different. I just think too few hold the knowledge, sometimes using that for financial gain. But eventually to perpetuate the hobby,people must share that same information with the vast majority of honest, hard working, Mopar owners.

Its not rocket science, and it doesnt promote world peace, or christianity, so lets dont get overly confident on how important any one person, business or entity is....no matter what good intentions one may have. The best intentions can result in the worst of consequences. Reality and perception are sometimes different and sometimes the same. I can say there isnt a one of you I would meet where I wouldnt want to spend all day listening and talking to you. Some things I would learn, some things I would disallow and some things I would disregard, but still having come out of it for learning more than when I went in.

Posted By: Scatransit

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 10:08 PM

Ah yes....the good ol'days...
Trailers were for camping, numbers were for counting, & build sheets were for starting the campfire...

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 10:27 PM

Quote:

Oh yes, I will tell you if your tag, or documentions is for real, just send me $25 and shut the @$&k up and just accept what I say is true.

Just for the record, for the models I am familiar with - I do that for free.

I also encourage those people to get a second opinion, I have never told anyone that they have no choice but to believe me, that would be incredibly arrogant.

I can not always tell if an item is fake or real, some look suspicious but I have not been able to tell the person one way or the other.

Sometimes it takes a while. Another tag shows up for the same make & model with the same VON as an example. In another instance, the fender tag looked perfect, but the dealership record I had seen for the car showed the original color. If I had not seen the paperwork, I would not have known.

In one of the threads a while back, I was critizied for not telling how I knew a certain tag was a fake. There were three respondents to that thread that showed a high degree of irritation with me. They had another thing in common, they had all approached me about helping them make fake tags for their cars.

Any guesses what they would do with the knowledge I posses?

Blame the fakers & frauds for why some knowledge is held closely by those that have it. If no one used what they know for the wrong reasons, more information would flow quite freely.

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/24/10 10:51 PM

Quote:

Don't know about any of this non-sense......

There are alot of references to "the hobby" in this thread.

Seems to me that "hobby" and "buisness" and "value/greed" are all conflicting interests

I feel sorry for any of you who weren't around 30 years ago and involved with mopars. Those were by far the best times for "the hobby".

Either you had a numbers car with or without papers or you didn't. There was no reproduction yet, you either found nos at a show or you fixed what you had or you did without.

Best of all, there were NO pro vendors, just people showing what they had and selling there spares/extras.

There weren't any trailers either, everyone drove to and from..... ahhh the good ole' days!

100% with you Steve, the last decade or so has seen the "hobby" turn into big business, big $$$, for cars, parts, services, etc,......I've been into Mopars for over 30 years, with the main focus being just the pure enjoyment of driving them, I've also have/had many business ventures in racing, restoring, reproduction, etc, associated with Mopars for over 30 years,...but I do miss the "ole days" when the only thing that mattered was what was under the hood, sure there were those who modified, and those who "restored" Mopars, but for the majority back then, buildsheets were just trash found in the car, fender tags were often tossed, as they distracted from the "clean-up" you did underhood to rid yourself of anything not needed, and when you wrecked a car, you went and got another, and in "most" cases you just rebodied the donor with what survived, including the VIN,....it was already registered with the DMV,....and nobody really cared, most didn't worry about matching numbers this or that, biggest concern was finding another engine, or tranny, or rearend, etc....the Mopar world was much more "relaxed" back then,.....your biggest problem was trying to explain to your chevy/ford friends why Mopars were truly unique,....today everyone seems more concerned with what "value"($$$$$$$) they're going to reap flipping a car, based on what paperwork follows it, or what numbers match what, or how many were built, or how much it's going to cost to restore, because they don't want to spend more than what they can flip the car for later

....back in the day we couldn't pour enough money into our cars, we didn't care about "collector" values, we cared about going fast, and looking good doing it.....but it seems the Mopar crowd has become a "Vette" type crowd,one they once ridiculed for their concern about numbers, datecodes, tank sheets, tags, paint daubs, etc.....the Mopar "hobby" has been established a plateau,....unfortunately it seems to be following the "Vette" program

Mike

Posted By: srt

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 12:27 AM

There are many cars out there that have been reconfigured and mis-represented.
It's good that thate are those that track those that are 'found out'.
Once a lable is attached it will be difficult, if impossible to remove.

Posted By: Dave Watt

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 03:02 AM

Quote:

There are many cars out there that have been reconfigured and mis-represented.
It's good that thate are those that track those that are 'found out'.
Once a lable is attached it will be difficult, if impossible to remove.

That's one of the reasons I track the A12 cars. But I feel bad when the unsuspecting new owner shares their fender tag data with me and I have to tell them that the car has been changed just in the last few years.

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 04:36 AM

Well then I am in luck! I have IBS (which rhymes with ECS) and will be glad to test the samples on my crack...

How is that for being brutaly honest?

Posted By: 68X426

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 05:45 AM

Quote:

challenge , reproducing , most accurate , HAD to be perfect accurately , reproduced , reproduce , varying degrees of shading and print inconsistencies , out of state , didn't just print one type or style! , test , anonymous , this will be his first awareness , Anyone care to see them

Mama Gump always said counterfeit is as counterfeit does.

Attached File

5945875-Ben_Franklin_100_dollar_bill.bmp (197 downloads)

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 06:03 AM

Quote:

I have IBS

It must be from eating a steady diet of Crow!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 06:11 AM

Quote:

counterfeit

We are certainly the best "counterfeiters" in the business. Everything guaranteed to accurately and correctly represent the originals!

Posted By: BS27R1B

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 01:44 PM

Quote:

I already HAVE made them! I have more than six variations and styles that perfectly represent the different assembly plants. Seven years ago "GG" made a comment in MCG that he could spot ANY reproduction that was made. That sounded like a challenge to me so I spent the next two years (off an on) reproducing the most accurate Build sheets ever made. I knew that these HAD to be perfect so every little detail, printing mistake and nuance was accurately reproduced. It then took over a year to correctly reproduce the fonts with varying degrees of shading and print inconsistencies. The actual sheets were printed (out of state) on the correct Heidelberg printing machines that were originally used to do these. I didn't just print one type or style! I knew that there were different variations with regards to the perforation cuts and collated edges. I had six different variations done covering 1969 thru 1970. The cost was a little over $22K to do all of this. The final test was when I had an anonymous person approach GG with my work and he "verified" it with no questions whatsoever!

Careful your true colors are showing.

The fact that you did this to fool someone else is incredible.

To then openly post what you did and your reason shows you are one sorry(I cannot use the proper term on this site) desperado.

Posted By: rayztoy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 01:48 PM

Quote:

Everything guaranteed to accurately and correctly represent the originals!

As you ALWAYS do with all your products!

Your an ASSET to the HOBBY!

Posted By: cataclysm80

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 01:57 PM

Thanks for answering most of those questions Dave. Just to clarify, the sheets you made were basically copies of existing sheets you had, no information was changed or had to be guessed at, right?

Tav

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 02:16 PM

Quote:

Careful Mr Hanky your true colors are showing.

I would certainly hope so! I am very proud of everything we do.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 02:54 PM

Quote:

Thanks for answering most of those questions Dave. Just to clarify, the sheets you made were basically copies of existing sheets you had, no information was changed or had to be guessed at, right?

Hi Tav,
These have never been used for any form of impropriety whatsoever. We do not sell them, barter them or give them away. As I stated earlier, they do not even register on my radar as an item of importance. One of the members here assumed that these were made simply to "fool" someone. The underlying reality for these being reproduced was because I was actually the fool! When I purchased my Black Cuda, I had no involvement or knowledge of the Chrysler industry at all! I bought the car because I was told by the "establishment" that it had the original build-sheet and window sticker! I remember thinking, "How could I go wrong!" Upon receiving the car (purchase from viewing a video; sight unseen) I realized that what I had bought was original paperwork and a non-original car. It had incorrect reproduction parts throughout the entire vehicle. It even had a General Motors Master Cylinder on it! The point is that I learned very quickly that "paperwork" could be just as mis-leading as it was beneficial. Most of the logic I have used in this thread comes from my own School of hard knocks. I don't have a problem admitting how stupid and naive I was to the industry back in 2002. In essence it was the driving force that made ECS what it is today. I am actually grateful for what was originally perceived as a bad situation. Regardless of what BSRICK or FAKE71HEMICUDA has assumed about our company, there has always been a larger picture for what ECS has done. Self gratification resulting from a (lessor) residual benefit is not always a bad thing! (Off to Church to pray for my "documentation" downfall.)

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 03:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have IBS

It must be from eating a steady diet of Crow!

Never tasted a crow in my life, how are they?

Posted By: cloneguy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 03:48 PM

All I can say is wow! I've been out for a while due to a death in the family and this is the first thread I happen upon.

This is America and we all have our rights to our own opinions and to free speach.

But, it troubles me to see so many whom I respect and admire in such a polarizing argument.

Alan, Barry, Dave, Scott and others, let's not forget, in the grand scheme here, we are all on the same team.

There will always be bad guys out there who do things the rest of us wouldn't do. Let's just all keep working together as good guys and hope the bad guys give up.

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 04:25 PM

Quote:

I bought the car because I was told by the "establishment" that it had the original build-sheet and window sticker! I remember thinking, "How could I go wrong!" Upon receiving the car (purchase from viewing a video; sight unseen) I realized that what I had bought was original paperwork and a non-original car. It had incorrect reproduction parts throughout the entire vehicle. It even had a General Motors Master Cylinder on it!

Well, there ya go.

You found out just how important "original" paperwork is! The original car can be changed but the original paperwork can't. Without it you don't know everything your car is supposed to be and with it you have the blueprint to change a "changed" car back to original. When I bought my Black '69 Road Runner it came with the original window sticker, two broadcast sheets and original dealership paperwork. With all of that I knew what the car was supposed be and any reproduction parts, incorrect parts, etc was secondary. All of those things could be changed where as the original paperwork can not...

Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 04:48 PM

Dave, one simple question.

Did you and/or ECS create and/or modify a broadcast sheet (or aid in) for a '71 340 'Cuda (that you do not own) adding the required "6" to indicate a car factory equipped with a SHAKER hood - "N96"?

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 05:24 PM

Quote:

let's not forget, in the grand scheme here, we are all on the same team.

I am not on any team with fakers & frauds, I prefer to spend my time with honest people.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 05:34 PM

Quote:

Without it you don't know everything your car is supposed to be and with it you have the blueprint to change a "changed" car back to original.

Sorry to ruin your theory but I didn't use the Broadcast sheet as a reference to restore the car AT ALL. The vehicle was simply a rolling example of reproduction (aka fake

) parts and pieces. If you understood the context of my post, the "correct" paperwork only added extra cost and pseudo value to an incorrect car! I paid top dollar for it (at the time) and STILL had to invest over $200K to straighten things out.

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 05:39 PM

That HemiCuda was the base or platform for your Reproduction harness tags and labels for Chrysler cars wasn't it?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 05:42 PM

Quote:

I am not on any team with fakers & frauds, I prefer to spend my time with honest people.

Now you might understand the context of your own words:

Never assume anything about something you know absolutely nothing about.

Your perception of people holds no validity to the reality of who they are! Try judging on facts rather than your petty dislike for someone.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 05:44 PM

Yes Alan. The Cuda was the start for everything we manufacture that is Chrysler related.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 05:45 PM

Quote:

Dave, one simple question.

Did you and/or ECS create and/or modify a broadcast sheet (or aid in) for a '71 340 'Cuda (that you do not own) adding the required "6" to indicate a car factory equipped with a SHAKER hood - "N96"?

Absolutely not!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 05:48 PM

Quote:

Never tasted a crow in my life, how are they?

From what I have been told Jim, Crow manifests a flavor very similar to that of "Distinct Denial"!

Posted By: cloneguy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 05:56 PM

I used to think that having a broadcast sheet added some extra value to a car. That was, of course, until reading this thread.

Now that I've heard people are making their own, I'll never look at one the same way again.

I pray that our beloved Mopars don't go the way of my long ago, beloved 427/435 Vettes. Now days a tank sticker means nothing because of all of the people making them.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 06:14 PM

Thank you for substantiating my earlier point Tim! Prior to reading this thread you had a "feeling" about something. Now you have a "different feeling"....right? What actually changed here? The Reality of the situation or your Awareness of it?

(Don't worry Tim, these won't be available or accessible to the market. Nothing has really changed.)

Posted By: gomangoRTSE

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 07:24 PM

I pray that our beloved Mopars don't go the way of my long ago, beloved 427/435 Vettes. Now days a tank sticker means nothing because of all of the people making them.
____________________________________________
Amen to that.

There must be 10,000 427/435HP cars out there, and 10,000 427/425HP not to mention other high output bigblock Corvettes. They are more plentiful now then were ever made brand new.

Reminds me of when I was a kid. Seems like every 327/375 HP car ever made by GM was claimed to have been owned by kids in my town. I was running around with a 360 Duster at the time.

Knowing the pedigree (history) of the car has become the preferred method of documenting a Corvette nowadays.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 07:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I am not on any team with fakers & frauds, I prefer to spend my time with honest people.

Now you might understand the context of your own words:

Never assume anything about something you know absolutely nothing about.

Your perception of people holds no validity to the reality of who they are! Try judging on facts rather than your petty dislike for someone.

I can only judge what my experience with any individual leads me to believe. If someone asks me to help them come up with a fake tag, I do not have to assume their motives are less than honest.

I do not dislike anyone, I am not a hater. Very often I do not like the things some people do. I choose not to help dishonest people, I see no reason to hang out with them or help them.

That is my reality, I certainly do not expect everyone to share it, they have their own reality.

Posted By: 52savoy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 08:24 PM

I wasn't planning on getting back into this..

I am thankful for all the companies that have put in time and money so I can make my cars look like they did 40 years ago(or so).
There wouldn't be an old car hobby as we know it if it wasn't for people or companies recognizing our needs.
If a person doesn't have enough brain power to know what is real and what is fake, they have no business getting into old cars ..or anything else. We've become a world of "pass the buck" and don't except responsibility for our own actions.

Lumping dishonest people with others(like me) that just like to have a "period correct" car really is unfair. As with anything, when it becomes valuable.. the riff-raff come out.

If we follow the logic represented to it's conclusion, there shouldn't be any restored cars being given awards because of FAKE paint marks, interior, trim, tires, paint and so on.
Just survivor type cars should be accepted. Regardless of condition.

just my penny's worth

Posted By: Iceman01

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 08:30 PM

Quote:

I am thankful for all the companies that have put in time and money so I can make my cars look like they did 40 years ago(or so). There wouldn't be an old car hobby as we know it if it wasn't for people or companies recognizing our needs. If a person doesn't have enough brain power to know what is real and what is fake, they have no business getting into old cars or anything else. We've become a world of "pass the buck" and don't except responsibility for our own actions.

Lumping dishonest people with others(like me) that just like to have a "period correct" car really is unfair. As with anything, when it becomes valuable the riff-raff come out.

If we follow the logic represented to it's conclusion, there shouldn't be any restored cars being given awards because of FAKE paint marks, interior, trim, tires, paint and so on.
Just survivor type cars should be accepted. Regardless of condition.

just my penny's worth

Excellent analysis!

Posted By: HPMike

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 08:59 PM

Quote:

I wasn't planning on getting back into this..

I am thankful for all the companies that have put in time and money so I can make my cars look like they did 40 years ago(or so).
There wouldn't be an old car hobby as we know it if it wasn't for people or companies recognizing our needs.
If a person doesn't have enough brain power to know what is real and what is fake, they have no business getting into old cars ..or anything else. We've become a world of "pass the buck" and don't except responsibility for our own actions.

Lumping dishonest people with others(like me) that just like to have a "period correct" car really is unfair. As with anything, when it becomes valuable.. the riff-raff come out.

If we follow the logic represented to it's conclusion, there shouldn't be any restored cars being given awards because of FAKE paint marks, interior, trim, tires, paint and so on.
Just survivor type cars should be accepted. Regardless of condition.

just my penny's worth

Good point.. However, if I am reading this correctly, then only those with the "secret handshake" should be allowed to enter this realm of hobby car ownership(?). There are many upstanding folks who don't yet have the knowledge, yet have all of the enthusiasm(and $) and more than those of the "inner circle". Even the most omnipotent were all once "rookies".

Do we just chalk it up to "caveat emptor", or do we do our best to make it so that documents that are a crucial part of determining provenance, (and in some cases value), are ferreted out as fakes and subsequently frowned upon?

I am not particularly siding with anyone here, but I am kinda leaning in the direction that it's best to leave those items alone. if someone wants to make a sheet for his/her own personal enjoyment who am I to say anything about it? I guess the problem lies with the fact that if truly undetectable items like this exist, then it casts a shadow of doubt upon all documentation. That, in itself makes it a bad thing, in some respect. If you remember, it was the block stamping that was/is so prevalent among the Corvette crowd, that really put a damper on the "numbers matching" status of all collector Vettes.

MB

Posted By: Paul Jacobs

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 09:25 PM

I just stumbled onto this thread. Can someone recap so I don't have to read the past 5 pages?

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 11:17 PM

Quote:

I just stumbled onto this thread. Can someone recap so I don't have to read the past 5 pages?

Paul,either way it will take you a while!

Posted By: 52savoy

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/25/10 11:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I just stumbled onto this thread. Can someone recap so I don't have to read the past 5 pages?

Paul,either way it will take you a while!

who would of thought..

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 12:13 AM

Just a bunch of us guys fighting for the tallest soap box

Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 12:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I just stumbled onto this thread. Can someone recap so I don't have to read the past 5 pages?

Paul,either way it will take you a while!

who would of thought..

I think there is one somewhat angry person who says the Broadcast sheet is not that important, doesn't really add value to the car and he will reproduce one that will be perfectly undetecable in spite of everyone?

Posted By: mopargem

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 12:32 AM

Quote:

hmmmmmm..............

i'm pretty sure that door stickers are being reproduced.

is that fraudulent or OK ? ? ? ? ?

A door sticker is a very visual "part" of the car that often needs replacement just like many other parts that are replaced if you want things looking nice. Pretty much next to impossible to remove an original and replace on fresh paint, therefore it shouldnt be to hard to spot a replacement on a restored car. Not much info on them anyway that could alter much. I embrace this particular correct reproduction or whatever you want to call it.

Posted By: joelson6

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 12:43 AM

thanks,

i was being a bit sarcastic.

i'm happy i can find replacement "stickers". i got some from some of the guys on the site. looks nice. oh, that reminds me, i need to order a couple more

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 12:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Without it you don't know everything your car is supposed to be and with it you have the blueprint to change a "changed" car back to original.

Sorry to ruin your theory but I didn't use the Broadcast sheet as a reference to restore the car AT ALL. The vehicle was simply a rolling example of reproduction (aka fake) parts and pieces. If you understood the context of my post, the "correct" paperwork only added extra cost and pseudo value to an incorrect car! I paid top dollar for it (at the time) and STILL had to invest over $200K to straighten things out.

I understood the context of your post completely. You said that you bought the car thinking what could go wrong because it had all of the correct paperwork. So you DID care that it had paperwork and expected a car that was correct and documented by the paperwork. So WHY??? did you NOT use the paperwork as a reference to restore it then???

The paperwork added value to your car as it should but you failed to do your homework and personally inspect the car before you bought it and negotiate a price for it that was fair based on what you expected. If you had to spend $200K to just "straighten things out" then you really got taken...

Posted By: moparply

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 01:01 AM

Question?

Who has the most information collected on these cars? Galen?

Why doesn't he make all of his donated for free/collected info accessible to everyone? Just like Barry's site, Thanks Barry!

I'm sure he has a lot of documentation/paper work/build sheets/etc. on these cars that could be reunited.

Why not just have one database/registry instead of 20?

Now is the time, not in another 10 or 20 years!

Posted By: anlauto

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 01:04 AM

Quote:

If you had to spend $200K to just "straighten things out" then you really got taken...

That's what I was thinking as well, but the guy's investing half a million into a 70 Valiant 4dr, so it's safe to assume money not really the deciding factor here....Just hate to be his one kid that gets stuck with the 4dr while the others get the cool cars

Posted By: Scatransit

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 02:09 AM

I think what the original poster is trying to do sounds kinda neat... We've all spent countless hours with our resource materials decoding build sheets...it's educational and a lot of fun...I've decoded mine 2 or 3 times and I always seem to learn something new...Doing it in reverse sounds like a real challenge...Get the parts books, service manuals, data tag info & so forth, all together and have at it!

As for ECS...In light of their philisophical position on build sheets, I do applaud their decision not to reproduce them. There are just too many gray areas.

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 02:43 AM

Quote:

I think what the original poster is trying to do sounds kinda neat... We've all spent countless hours with our resource materials decoding build sheets...it's educational and a lot of fun...I've decoded mine 2 or 3 times and I always seem to learn something new...Doing it in reverse sounds like a real challenge...Get the parts books, service manuals, data tag info & so forth, all together and have at it!

As for ECS...In light of their philisophical position on build sheets, I do applaud their decision not to reproduce them. There are just too many gray areas.

But he already HAS reproduced them, just decided not to offer them for sale!

The way I see it Dave used this thread to make his final decision NOT to sell them, though they will always be out there now.

Don't forget that we are just caretakers of these cars and they WILL be passed onto someone else eventually, or maybe Dave thinks he is going to live forever?

Posted By: Paul Jacobs

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 02:55 AM

This post has gone from bad to worse! Enough already for Gods sake!!

Look, despite everyones opinions, you guys making personal attacks on each other is taking it a bit too far.
Dave Walden is a friend of mine, and we disagree on things. In fact, I happen to love broadcast sheets-they are very helpful when restoring a basket case with little other documentation.
Jim Rinehart is a friend of mine and WE disagree on things.
I have a lot of friends on here and we see things differently.
It is not necessary, to agree on all things, to still be civil on a board, in which we all want to learn and help the hobby.
This board should not be a platform of "who can prove their point the greatest".
It's a fact that we are all very passionate about these cars, but it's a bit fruitless, if we lose the respect of our fellow enthusiast by our attitudes.
The worst part about this is the original poster is a friend of mine. He's kinda new to the hobby and is one of the most honest people I have ever met. Some of the responses here have made him question whether he should ever post here again!!

To all on here, thanks for your inputs on this subject-each one has been interesting reading.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 03:35 AM

Quote:

I understood the context of your post completely......So you DID care that it had paperwork and expected a car that was correct and documented by the paperwork.

I find your selective perception quite amusing. If you HAD paid attention you would have realized that my comments referenced 2002 and not present day. NOW, I choose to think for myself rather than listen to a group of self serving opportunists. (You do understand the meaning of the word "NOW" don't you Eric?) Being "bitten" by the ordeal only helped to expedite my change of heart. And Eric....that $200K was the best "taken" that ever happened to me. Once again had you paid attention, THAT ordeal was the catalyst that catapulted my company to be where it is today! Looking back, I wish I could find TEN more "taken" scenarios exactly like that one. Sorry if you find that disappointing!

Guys like you can moan and groan all you like. The bottom line is that I took the time to do things right and followed the proper channels to become licensed. I manufacture and legally represent all of the products I sell under the Chrysler Brand! They are completely aware of the Broadcast Sheets and were even willing to grant permission to offer them under certain conditions. Who are you to lecture me about what you seem to think I should or shouldn't feel about them?! Until you have controlling interest in Chrysler Eric, I guess you will just have to live with this.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 03:52 AM

Quote:

This post has gone from bad to worse!

No Paul, it has NOT gone from bad to worse. It is about time that someone stood up to the moronic rhetoric that has plagued us for quite some time. I have listened to this nonsense for YEARS but no one has been willing to take the bull by the horns and stand up for what is right! Did you read the earlier post where a Gentleman was told his all original survivor car was basically worthless (and only good for a parts car) because it didn't have the fender tag or a Build-sheet?!? If you give certain people perceived authority they will take it. I am NOT trying to change anyone's feelings about how they should perceive the value of a Broadcast Sheet. I would only hope that fellow hobbyist will STOP looking down their noses at those members who don't have a Hemi this or that with a Build-sheet or a 440 Six Pack with a build-sheet or a Superbird with a Build-sheet, etc.... I personal find my Slant Six Valiant a more desirable car than my Hemicuda or Challenger R/T. People's cars are valuable for WHAT THEY ARE not because "someone" subjectively dictates their importance based on a piece of paper shoved in a seat!

PS...when are you coming up?

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 05:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I understood the context of your post completely......So you DID care that it had paperwork and expected a car that was correct and documented by the paperwork.

I find your selective perception quite amusing. If you HAD paid attention you would have realized that my comments referenced 2002 and not present day. NOW, I choose to think for myself rather than listen to a group of self serving opportunists. (You do understand the meaning of the word "NOW" don't you Eric?) Being "bitten" by the ordeal only helped to expedite my change of heart. And Eric....that $200K was the best "taken" that ever happened to me. Once again had you paid attention, THAT ordeal was the catalyst that catapulted my company to be where it is today! Looking back, I wish I could find TEN more "taken" scenarios exactly like that one. Sorry if you find that disappointing!

Guys like you can moan and groan all you like. The bottom line is that I took the time to do things right and followed the proper channels to become licensed. I manufacture and legally represent all of the products I sell under the Chrysler Brand! They are completely aware of the Broadcast Sheets and were even willing to grant permission to offer them under certain conditions. Who are you to lecture me about what you seem to think I should or shouldn't feel about them?! Until you have controlling interest in Chrysler Eric, I guess you will just have to live with this.

Dave, I'm a customer of yours and I do appreciate some of your products but I don't appreciate your arrogance to anybody that try's to reason with you. I also don't appreciate the way you dangle out in front of everybody here your personal perceived power to ruin what an original broadcast sheet does for documenting real original cars with your counterfeit sheets IF you wanted to because Chrysler officially authorized you to do so. I don't think I'm alone here. You know what a negative effect it would have if you did offer them and that is why you don't, but quit acting like you might. You should put your efforts into detecting fake sheets since you are the expert at faking them. I don't think anybody here would argue with you if you were to become the Official Chrysler Licensed fake broadcast sheet detector! Don't take offense to this, just munch on it a bit and hopefully it might make some sense to you without you coming back at me and bashing me for being concerned...Now be nice

Posted By: Scatransit

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 10:21 AM

But he already HAS reproduced them, just decided not to offer them for sale!

I was referring to filled out and packaged - such as with window stickers.

I too am concerned about the message being sent here to folks that may be new to the hobby and/or this board.

Lets have our opinions, accept the fact that others have theirs, and try to find common ground somewhere.

Posted By: cataclysm80

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 11:52 AM

Quote:

But he already HAS reproduced them, just decided not to offer them for sale!

The sheets Dave made (about 5 years ago it sounds like) have no affect on the hobby and no affect on the cars they were made for. No information on the sheet was guessed at or changed. They are basically a fancy color copy of an already existing sheet. An extra copy of a broadcast sheet has no affect on a car that already had a sheet with it. An extra copy of a broadcast sheet also has no affect on the future of the hobby. If someone else gets there hands on one of Dave's sheets in 50 years, even if it's not with the car anymore, because the codes on the sheet are exactly the same, it would be no different from having one of the many copies the factory made for each car.

Barry Washington said earlier in this thread that his definition of reproduction included nothing being changed or guessed at from original. These sheets meet that (and every other) definition. They are true reproductions.

Even if they don't always agree with each other 100%, Barry Washington, Galen Govier, & Dave Walden are the three people I trust to never change a cars documents. (I could probably add a few more to that list also, Scott Smith, Dan, etc...)

It sounds like Dave did a marvelous job selecting the correct paper, ink, & font, while also formatting and aging the document, but the real tell about a fake sheet will always be the information that goes in the blanks. Some options don't go with other options, and what was coded on the sheet along with how it was coded changed over time. Not just from year to year, but also early vs late in the year.

Tav

Posted By: Cudaworld

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 03:33 PM

Dave, is there anyway to put a little ECS Logo on the back of your broadcast sheets in order to spot the fake from original? Your products are spot on correct and I have used them on my car. (Thank you)

I suppose my thoughts are if you can make a sheet with some kind of tell tale sign it is a "copy" "reproduction" etc... then that would be great. We would know then based on your integrity that nothing was changed on the Broadcast sheet, no options were added to the car, your strict criteria for developing and selling the completed sheet were met.

Then it's a novelty item someone can have made for their car. Just an idea...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 04:04 PM

Quote:

Dave, I'm a customer of yours and I do appreciate some of your products but I don't appreciate your arrogance to anybody that try's to reason with you.

In bold print below was the start of the remarks where you claim to have tried to "reason" with me. Where I come those are statements made by a person looking to start trouble and argue. By all means feel free to reference my remark that initially instigated and called YOU out!

While I certainly appreciate the customers and patronage of ECS, it isn't a personality contest for me. If you want the best reproduction products for your car we will provide them at a competitive price with great service. If your patronage is based on how I react to your instigating remarks, you might be better served to get your products somewhere else. Sorry but I refuse to prostitute who and what I am for the almighty $$$. The subtle threat of not using our products if I don't cower to your remarks doesn't affect me in the least. I have never dangled any "perceived power". I simply have stated the facts about what ECS is licensed to provide.

An analogy of a gum wrapper to a broadcast sheet is absurd!

How can you say it adds value and is not worth less in the same sentence?

The paperwork added value to your car as it should but you failed to do your homework and personally inspect the car before you bought it and negotiate a price for it that was fair based on what you expected. If you had to spend $200K to just "straighten things out" then you really got taken...

Posted By: rtscuda

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 04:06 PM

Quote:

Dave, is there anyway to put a little ECS Logo on the back of your broadcast sheets in order to spot the fake from original?

Perhaps a water mark, only seen when held up to light

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 04:39 PM

Quote:

Dave, is there anyway to put a little ECS Logo on the back of your broadcast sheets in order to spot the fake from original?

Hi Chris! I hope things are great for you and your Family. Your Cuda turned out phenomenal!! A work of art with tremendous detailing! I think you and I actually talked about this a couple of years ago. Your suggestion is actually one of the things that I did speak to Chrysler about. Keep in mind that I originally spoke with them about allowing these "items" to be marketed in blank condition as a novelty item. As Barry stated in an earlier post, most of the fakes have mistakes that contradict their own information throughout the sheet. Dave Stuart (of Chrysler) actually is THE KING of all paperwork. He has ALL of the nomenclature from the factory that tells how these were to be filled out and the protocol for their design. At one time I even talked about building a complete REPRODUCTION car (never in the Chrysler system) with it's own paperwork and every radical option that was never offered by the factory. NOTE: IT WOULD NOT BE REPRESENTED AS A REAL FACTORY VEHICLE. WE ARE NOT CROOKS ATTEMPTING TO DECEIVE OR HURT THE INDUSTRY!!!!!! We actually got the idea from Carroll Shelby (who Dave Stuart knows) and his later run of Shelby Mustangs. This car would be completely constructed of reproduction parts used from Goodmark, BE&A along with the other suppliers in the industry. I was involved with the 1967 Mustang that FORD built using ALL reproduction components. The car debuted at the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas two years ago. We were commissioned by FORD to supply all of the custom decals and the glass for the vehicle. I have also had discussions with Gary Skelton of General Motors to build retro 1969 Camaros using nothing but GM certified reproduction parts. We could manufacture 12 vehicles per year without having to comply with the EPA standards for new automobiles. They would be offered with various option packages, interiors, power trains, etc.... It would be like going back in time and ordering a new 1969 Camaro! There are many things going on behind the scenes in this industry that are really cool. I personally see no harm in coming out with a vehicle that is a "rolling testimony" of the quality reproduction parts that has been manufactured for our hobby!

Think about it....a brand new Chrysler vehicle made to represent the old cars in every way! NOT to be passed off as original or any thing of the sort!

Great to hear from you Master Chris!

Posted By: MuscleMopars

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 05:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dave, I'm a customer of yours and I do appreciate some of your products but I don't appreciate your arrogance to anybody that try's to reason with you.

Quote:

If your patronage is based on how I react to your instigating remarks, you might be better served to get your products somewhere else. Sorry but I refuse to prostitute who and what I am for the almighty $$$. The subtle threat of not using our products if I don't cower to your remarks doesn't affect me in the least. I have never dangled any "perceived power". I simply have stated the facts about what ECS is licensed to provide.

What about this Dave, "I'm a customer of yours and I do appreciate some of your products", sounds like a threat to you? I was just identifing myself a little better for you...

Can you address this:
Sure, you have stated the facts about what ECS is licensed to provide but you do it in a way like you are the one in charge of weather or not you can ruin what an original broadcast sheet does for documenting real original cars with your counterfeit sheets and you could do that IF you wanted to because Chrysler officially authorized you to do so?

And:
You know what a negative effect it would have if you did offer them and that is why you don't, but quit acting like you might.

And:
You should put your efforts into detecting fake sheets since you are the expert at faking them. I don't think anybody here would argue with you if you were to become the Official Chrysler Licensed fake broadcast sheet detector!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: reproduction broadcast sheet - 04/26/10 06:09 PM

Quote:

What about this Dave, "I'm a customer of yours and I do appreciate some of your products", sounds like a threat to you? I was just identifing myself a little better for you...

No Eric here was your COMPLETE quote:
Dave, I'm a customer of yours and I do appreciate some of your products but I don't appreciate your arrogance to anybody that try's to reason with you.

Regarding the rest of your inquiry all I can say is that your concerns are nothing more than a subliminal testimonial of how you would handle the situation. My mind doesn't think in an unethical fashion. Contrary to your incorrect and unsubstantiated perception, I have NEVER considered myself to be anything but a servant to the industry. Many of the concerns expressed about "fake this" or "crooks doing that" is nothing more than their inner personality traits. Money shouldn't be illegal just because some "crook" chooses to pilfer it. Baseball Bats shouldn't be illegal because some "crooks" use them as a weapon of choice. Pencils and pens should not be banned just because some people use them to write and document their devious plans. And Eric, I don't concern myself with the diabolical schemes that all of you "honest" folks immediately think about when this subject is brought up. Thank goodness you don't have access to this information. Maybe THAT is the real problem here Eric! Possibly a little "documentation" envy?

reproduction broadcast sheet