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More 727 questions oil feed holes #613258 02/14/10 01:33 PM 02/14/10 01:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio VernMotor OP master
VernMotor OP master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio	What size should I Drill this feed hole out to ?

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: VernMotor] #613259 02/14/10 02:14 PM 02/14/10 02:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 10,542 BROOK PARK, OH WILD BILL Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
WILD BILL Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 10,542 BROOK PARK, OH	What's the reasonig behind enlarging it?

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: WILD BILL] #613260 02/14/10 02:45 PM 02/14/10 02:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio dartman366 I Live Here
dartman366 I Live Here Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio	don't know on that hole but make sure you blend the hole into the outer groove. any question's come see me. Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: dartman366] #613261 02/14/10 03:00 PM 02/14/10 03:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio VernMotor OP master
VernMotor OP master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio	I beleve you are talking about this. That is not the hole I am showing. The pic I have up is one thats been drilled already.It is one of John K pics.The hole I am showing is from the pump to feed/lube the the front clutchs. I think ..

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: VernMotor] #613262 02/14/10 03:45 PM 02/14/10 03:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio dartman366 I Live Here
dartman366 I Live Here Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio	yes I am. Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: VernMotor] #613263 02/14/10 04:05 PM 02/14/10 04:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,812 Portsmouth, VA D DusterW2 top fuel
DusterW2 top fuel D Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,812 Portsmouth, VA	The hole sprays oil on the front clutches. B&M Trans Kit instructions say to open hole to 3/32" ~ 0.090". Original hole size is 0.060" or less. The later model 727s do not have this hole, and the clutches get lube thru a different circuit. John

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: DusterW2] #613264 02/14/10 04:10 PM 02/14/10 04:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio VernMotor OP master
VernMotor OP master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio	Thank you again !

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: VernMotor] #613265 02/14/10 04:23 PM 02/14/10 04:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 760 Southington Ct. T turbobitt super stock
turbobitt super stock T Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 760 Southington Ct.	This feed hole will supply lube oil to the front clutch bushing. I wouldn't enlarge it. To much oil in the front clutch area will just make it more difficult for the clutches to squeeze it out during apply. FWIW, I've been starting to add this feed hole on my later pumps that don't have it for more direct/beter bushing lube oil. Allan G. 1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: turbobitt] #613266 02/14/10 05:49 PM 02/14/10 05:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,863 Rio Linda, CA John_Kunkel Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,863 Rio Linda, CA	Nearly everybody in the business enlarges that hole, some go as large as 1/8" which is the size in the pic in the OP. The clearance between the discs dictates how much fluid will have to be squeezed out on application, the idea is to increase to volume of the flow through the discs for cooling. The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: John_Kunkel] #613267 02/14/10 09:44 PM 02/14/10 09:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 760 Southington Ct. T turbobitt super stock
turbobitt super stock T Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 760 Southington Ct.	Quote: Nearly everybody in the business enlarges that hole, some go as large as 1/8" which is the size in the pic in the OP. So do we blindly follow the masses and just do it without understanding the reasoning ? Is it needed ? Do we have any data to support this modification ? Quote: The clearance between the discs dictates how much fluid will have to be squeezed out on application, the idea is to increase to volume of the flow through the discs for cooling. Clutch material and groove vs. no groove among other things will also impact this. Not trying to be a PITA or wise a$$ but I've seen to many modifications done simply because the other guy has done them. Would be very interested in any real world data to support this modification. Allan G. 1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: VernMotor] #613268 02/15/10 11:28 AM 02/15/10 11:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC	I like this mod to lube the sprag and associated parts. 1/16" dia hole added. 5805593-Sprag_lube_hole2.jpg (171 downloads)

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: 440Jim] #613269 02/15/10 11:30 AM 02/15/10 11:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC	And here are some reference dimensions to help locate the lube hole. 5805600-Sprag_oil_dims.jpg (171 downloads)

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: 440Jim] #613270 02/15/10 11:44 AM 02/15/10 11:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio VernMotor OP master
VernMotor OP master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio	Yes I aready got that done Jim Thanks

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: turbobitt] #613271 02/15/10 03:16 PM 02/15/10 03:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,863 Rio Linda, CA John_Kunkel Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,863 Rio Linda, CA	Quote: So do we blindly follow the masses and just do it without understanding the reasoning ? Is it needed ? Do we have any data to support this modification ? How many of the mods that you perform are fairly standard? As to the reasoning think about this, in 1st gear the front cluth drum turns 80% of input shaft speed but in the opposite direction; so the surface speed of the discs is 180% of input shaft speed; lots of drag there. The extra volume of fluid helps keep the surfaces well lubricated and helps cooling especially at the higher rpm's that race cars turn. Quote: Clutch material and groove vs. no groove among other things will also impact this. Maybe so but the fact remains that fluids don't compress, so the actual volume of fluid that is present between the discs is the same no matter how much extra volume passes between them and that extra volume that needs to be "squeezed out" seems to be your original arguing point. The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: John_Kunkel] #613272 02/15/10 03:45 PM 02/15/10 03:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 760 Southington Ct. T turbobitt super stock
turbobitt super stock T Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 760 Southington Ct.	Quote: Quote: So do we blindly follow the masses and just do it without understanding the reasoning ? Is it needed ? Do we have any data to support this modification ? How many of the mods that you perform are fairly standard? As to the reasoning think about this, in 1st gear the front cluth drum turns 80% of input shaft speed but in the opposite direction; so the surface speed of the discs is 180% of input shaft speed; lots of drag there. The extra volume of fluid helps keep the surfaces well lubricated and helps cooling especially at the higher rpm's that race cars turn. Quote: Clutch material and groove vs. no groove among other things will also impact this. Maybe so but the fact remains that fluids don't compress, so the actual volume of fluid that is present between the discs is the same no matter how much extra volume passes between them and that extra volume that needs to be "squeezed out" seems to be your original arguing point. So if there is already a full volume of fluid in this area , then why make this hole bigger ? Again, looking for some hard data. My interest is from the fact that I have had issues witht he direct drum bushing getting worn or producing fine material in the oil. I have had this issue on a few of my own transmissions with the common thing being that they both have extra clutches and therfore may have increased the mass of the drum assembly. I have added this hole to my later style pumps to see if it will help in delivering lube oil to this area. I have not inspected it since I done this modification so I have no data to share but at least I'm attempting to back it up with an A/B testing. In this case with a transmission with the hole already there I would argue that if it was OK from the factory then why increase it ? If you have any data(not aome elaborate theory)to share then please post it as I'm looking to learn. Quote: How many of the mods that you perform are fairly standard? Most, if not all the modifications I've done are based on my own testing, or at least from trial and error. Have I used shift kits before and done there modifications ? of course.. BUT I take the time to understand the efects of those modifications. I'm not claiming to invent anything or be on the cutting edge of anything but would like to have a full understanding of any particular modification. I've spent many hours on my valve bodies, as well as my TH400 stuff trying to understand and map out the fluid flow and its effects. Allan G. 1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: turbobitt] #613273 02/15/10 09:06 PM 02/15/10 09:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,863 Rio Linda, CA John_Kunkel Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,863 Rio Linda, CA	Quote: So if there is already a full volume of fluid in this area , then why make this hole bigger ? Again, looking for some hard data. How do you know that the factory size hole supplies "full volume" in a performance situation. Got hard data? Quote: Most, if not all the modifications I've done are based on my own testing, or at least from trial and error. How do you "test", got a dyno? Why do you question this mod? What's the possible downside of enlarging the hole? The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: VernMotor] #613274 02/15/10 09:14 PM 02/15/10 09:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,442 LOWELL IN Q QWK_ENUF top fuel
QWK_ENUF top fuel Q Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,442 LOWELL IN	anybody see this post https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post5795766 WAXER

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: QWK_ENUF] #613275 02/15/10 09:25 PM 02/15/10 09:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio dartman366 I Live Here
dartman366 I Live Here Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio	Quote: anybody see this post https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post5795766 I agree, this is the kind of post we can all learn from, so let's not let it die an early death, sometime's the way thing's are written can be taken the wrong way, when in reality it may of not been intended that way. I used to have problem's with 904's not holding up,,I tried a lot of these mod's and now I have some pretty good success with them after reading the thing's that John Kunkle, John Cope, and 440Jim have written and applied to my home built tranny's Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: dartman366] #613276 02/15/10 09:51 PM 02/15/10 09:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC	FWIW, (take it or leave it), I learned a lot from John Kunkel and John Russo (DusterW2). But I always read and make my own decisions. He is usually right... I like the added fluid to cool the front (direct) clutch disks in my race car. I also believe this mod helps increase the flow. 5806748-Rear_piston_retainer1_enlarge.jpg (91 downloads)

Re: More 727 questions oil feed holes [Re: 440Jim] #613277 02/15/10 10:01 PM 02/15/10 10:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio VernMotor OP master
VernMotor OP master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 7,348 Mt.Vernon ,Ohio	And fluid to them holes would come from the hole I am talking about drilling so you have all them holes and space to fill with a .060 hole. this deal is almost like splash oiling. Am I thinking about this right ?

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