|
Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
#608588
02/09/10 02:10 AM
02/09/10 02:10 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie
OP
Moparts Linguist
|
OP
Moparts Linguist
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
|
I finished up the new rear axle tonight and the brakes and got to bleeding. By the way, they are 4-piston Wilwoods in the front and 10x2.5" drums in the rear.
I got everything buttoned up and nice, and left the star adjuster wheels alone (the wheels spun without resistance). I started bleeding the rears in the normal fashion - farthest from the master first.
Got all of the rears done. There was some air in there, but not a ton, which is weird because I literally removed like 50% of the rear brake tubing and replaced it.
Then I got to the front brakes. Each caliper has four bleeders, so I bled all eight. All the brakes were bled and the master pots have fluid. At this point the pedal was acting weird. One pump would put it at the floor, but the second pump in quick succession would be rock-hard. Let the first pump go for about 5 seconds before the second pump, and it would be a soft pedal again. This seems to tell me the drum shoes weren't seated very close initially.
I know the trick in the FSM is to drive backwards and brake hard to seat the drum brake shoes, so I did for a while. Got the little spinny sounds over and over, but the pedal never seemed to get better. Still soft on the first pump, hard on the second. I am reasonably sure I got most of the air out of the system, but I can't be sure. Our pressure bleeder didn't work with the Wilwood Master Cylinder top.
Any other suggestions of what I can do to make the drums seat well? I thought that if I manually seated it tomorrow it might be fine, but not sure. Thanks in advance!
|
|
|
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
[Re: sharpie]
#608589
02/09/10 04:13 AM
02/09/10 04:13 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
|
Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
|
adj the rear shoes till they rub the drums.. (like you should of done the first time) re bleed again.... are your bleeders pointing up so all the air is pushed out?? 
I am truckless..
|
|
|
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
[Re: RapidRobert]
#608591
02/09/10 12:58 PM
02/09/10 12:58 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,530
Nunya CA
CR8CRSHR
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,530
Nunya CA
|
Quote:
Quote:
One pump would put it at the floor, but the second pump in quick succession would be rock-hard. Let the first pump go for about 5 seconds before the second pump, and it would be a soft pedal again.
Classic symptoms of air still in there. I'd spoon the rear drums up solid then undo them until the drums just spin loose then tighten them up until you reach a point where there is a slight "tick" of contact at ONE point in the circumference of the drum as it rotates then do the other drum. I have the rear up on stands w the eng idling in gear and a helper in the dr seat & he brakes and stops the wheels, I adj them tighter, he lets off the brake, I listen for the telltale "tick" and so on until I reach that exact point. 1st bench bleed the M/C (on the car is fine) then bleed the front discs (using the top bleeders) RF then LF then the rear drums RR then LR. EDIT On burnishing the brakes for a perfect fit I remember something about a 30-30-30 procedure. Might Google it. 30 very gradual stops from 30 mph w a 30 second??? interval. Even more perfection would be to buy a tool that shows your rate of decelleration and for brake breakin theres a preferred rate that will burnish them absolutely perfect. I got it in my notes somewhere, If you get the decellerometer (sp) I'll look it up for you. 
Brian...I agree  . Still some air in the lines. I am going through the same issue with the 66 Plymouth Satellite even though it is still in Vacaville. Also...There is available the correct wheel cylinders for disc front/drum rear brake set ups. The stock ones will work but not as effectively. Rick Ehrenberg has them for a reasonable price. Let me know if you need the info as I can get it to you and I also have an extra set....cr8crsh/Bill 
|
|
|
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
[Re: CR8CRSHR]
#608592
02/09/10 02:06 PM
02/09/10 02:06 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
Lefty
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
|
Quote:
Still soft on the first pump, hard on the second
You still have air in the lines. It is not easy to bleed the system once it's been opened up. Keep bleeding until you have a hard pedal all the time. Speed Bleeders make the task a lot easier.
|
|
|
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
[Re: sharpie]
#608596
02/09/10 04:22 PM
02/09/10 04:22 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
|
Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
|
Did you already adjust the rear brakes? If not I would do that first. Too much play-movement in the shoes will not allow the brakes to be bled properly with the pump method. You may need a larger bore master or residual valve (doubt it) but make sure you are doing everything else properly first. Too bad you were not doing this last week, I'd loan you my bleeder. 
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
|
|
|
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
[Re: GTXKen]
#608599
02/09/10 07:12 PM
02/09/10 07:12 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,426
weymouth,mass.
meepmeep70
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,426
weymouth,mass.
|
Quote:
Gravity bleed them
gravity bleed my system and everything was new,bench bleed master,all new lines,calipers,wheel cyl.took some time but just had a couple coldies while gravity did the work
|
|
|
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
[Re: meepmeep70]
#608600
02/10/10 03:27 AM
02/10/10 03:27 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie
OP
Moparts Linguist
|
OP
Moparts Linguist
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
|
Hmm. I went out there tonight and started by manually adjusting the rear drums. Got them set pretty nice. Checked for pedal - no difference. So I set the parking brake like Randy suggested. No difference as well. At this point I was thinking clearly air in the lines. So I gravity-bled it. It was excruciatingly slow, but I let it go (even with the cap off). After 20 minutes of not seeing a single bubble, I shut the bleeders and pressed the pedal. Still the same as last night. First time is pretty soft, but the second pump is hard. At this point, I decided to check the brakes on the stands. Put it into gear and the car braked fine. So I took it off the stands and drove it around the block. Even when the pedal almost hits the floor, it has pretty good feel in the brakes. The brakes work better with two pumps, but I'm still afraid to take it on the street just yet. So tomorrow I will be looking for an adapter for my power bleeder to my Wilwood Tandem Master Cylinder. 
|
|
|
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
[Re: RapidRobert]
#608602
02/10/10 11:02 AM
02/10/10 11:02 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie
OP
Moparts Linguist
|
OP
Moparts Linguist
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
|
Quote:
Quote:
After 20 minutes of not seeing a single bubble,
Gravity bleeding, generally you have to pump them to get the fluid flowing down to the wheel cyls then gravity takes over. W a problem situation like this I would still bench bleed the M/C (by hand), then bleed em out (dont need the power bleeder). You'll be alright when you get the air out of there and adj the shoes
how does that work? Won't the pedal suck up a bunch of air when you let it go?
|
|
|
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
[Re: GTXKen]
#608605
02/10/10 11:55 AM
02/10/10 11:55 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,426
weymouth,mass.
meepmeep70
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,426
weymouth,mass.
|
Quote:
I threw that out there because it is by far the simplest way to bleed brakes and I think its largely overlooked. I usually start the process while I'm still finishing a brake job. I take 4 old butter or sour cream containers and let the fluid flow until I have completely flushed the system of the old fluid. It takes a few minutes longer but its easy and can be done single handedly. fill the master and open all the bleeders up at once. Keep an eye on the master so it doesn't go dry. I just start cleaning up the garage or check other fluids while the system bleeds itself.
exactly,i used 4 glass jars so i could see bubbles,it does take longer,but i had nobody to help me,by the time the wife got home i was test driving(2hrs later,i got back  )
|
|
|
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
[Re: sharpie]
#608606
02/10/10 03:28 PM
02/10/10 03:28 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,601
Hatfield,Pa.
bigD
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,601
Hatfield,Pa.
|
Brian,on the wilwoods,they sound like the ones on our sprint car that we used to run. We would bleed from the top outboard bleeder and then the inner one.Do you have a porporting valve or residual valves in the system? I would keep trying the old "pump it up and hold it" routine with a buddy until you have good pedal,D. 
2015 Chrysler200s,2008 Charger R/T R&T,1999 Dakota R/T,1999 Viper ACR,1968 Charger R/T.
|
|
|
|
|
, you reach a point where the weight of the gas takes over