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Bled brakes today - still outta whack?
Posted By: sharpie
Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 06:10 AM
I finished up the new rear axle tonight and the brakes and got to bleeding. By the way, they are 4-piston Wilwoods in the front and 10x2.5" drums in the rear.
I got everything buttoned up and nice, and left the star adjuster wheels alone (the wheels spun without resistance). I started bleeding the rears in the normal fashion - farthest from the master first.
Got all of the rears done. There was some air in there, but not a ton, which is weird because I literally removed like 50% of the rear brake tubing and replaced it.
Then I got to the front brakes. Each caliper has four bleeders, so I bled all eight. All the brakes were bled and the master pots have fluid. At this point the pedal was acting weird. One pump would put it at the floor, but the second pump in quick succession would be rock-hard. Let the first pump go for about 5 seconds before the second pump, and it would be a soft pedal again. This seems to tell me the drum shoes weren't seated very close initially.
I know the trick in the FSM is to drive backwards and brake hard to seat the drum brake shoes, so I did for a while. Got the little spinny sounds over and over, but the pedal never seemed to get better. Still soft on the first pump, hard on the second. I am reasonably sure I got most of the air out of the system, but I can't be sure. Our pressure bleeder didn't work with the Wilwood Master Cylinder top.
Any other suggestions of what I can do to make the drums seat well? I thought that if I manually seated it tomorrow it might be fine, but not sure. Thanks in advance!
Posted By: 340SHORTY
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 08:13 AM
adj the rear shoes till they rub the drums.. (like you should of done the first time)
re bleed again.... are your bleeders pointing up so all the air is pushed out??
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 04:40 PM
Quote:
One pump would put it at the floor, but the second pump in quick succession would be rock-hard. Let the first pump go for about 5 seconds before the second pump, and it would be a soft pedal again.
Classic symptoms of air still in there. I'd spoon the rear drums up solid then undo them until the drums just spin loose then tighten them up until you reach a point where there is a slight "tick" of contact at ONE point in the circumference of the drum as it rotates then do the other drum. I have the rear up on stands w the eng idling in gear and a helper in the dr seat & he brakes and stops the wheels, I adj them tighter, he lets off the brake, I listen for the telltale "tick" and so on until I reach that exact point. 1st bench bleed the M/C (on the car is fine) then bleed the front discs (using the top bleeders) RF then LF then the rear drums RR then LR. EDIT On burnishing the brakes for a perfect fit I remember something about a 30-30-30 procedure. Might Google it. 30 very gradual stops from 30 mph w a 30 second??? interval. Even more perfection would be to buy a tool that shows your rate of decelleration and for brake breakin theres a preferred rate that will burnish them absolutely perfect. I got it in my notes somewhere, If you get the decellerometer (sp) I'll look it up for you. 
Posted By: CR8CRSHR
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 04:58 PM
Quote:
Quote:
One pump would put it at the floor, but the second pump in quick succession would be rock-hard. Let the first pump go for about 5 seconds before the second pump, and it would be a soft pedal again.
Classic symptoms of air still in there. I'd spoon the rear drums up solid then undo them until the drums just spin loose then tighten them up until you reach a point where there is a slight "tick" of contact at ONE point in the circumference of the drum as it rotates then do the other drum. I have the rear up on stands w the eng idling in gear and a helper in the dr seat & he brakes and stops the wheels, I adj them tighter, he lets off the brake, I listen for the telltale "tick" and so on until I reach that exact point. 1st bench bleed the M/C (on the car is fine) then bleed the front discs (using the top bleeders) RF then LF then the rear drums RR then LR. EDIT On burnishing the brakes for a perfect fit I remember something about a 30-30-30 procedure. Might Google it. 30 very gradual stops from 30 mph w a 30 second??? interval. Even more perfection would be to buy a tool that shows your rate of decelleration and for brake breakin theres a preferred rate that will burnish them absolutely perfect. I got it in my notes somewhere, If you get the decellerometer (sp) I'll look it up for you.
Brian...I agree 
. Still some air in the lines. I am going through the same issue with the 66 Plymouth Satellite even though it is still in Vacaville. Also...There is available the correct wheel cylinders for disc front/drum rear brake set ups. The stock ones will work but not as effectively. Rick Ehrenberg has them for a reasonable price. Let me know if you need the info as I can get it to you and I also have an extra set....cr8crsh/Bill 
Posted By: Lefty
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 06:06 PM
Quote:
Still soft on the first pump, hard on the second
You still have air in the lines. It is not easy to bleed the system once it's been opened up. Keep bleeding until you have a hard pedal all the time. Speed Bleeders make the task a lot easier.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 06:16 PM
Try setting the parking brake & see if the pedal improves... The first time you apply the brakes it will still feel bad but if the rears are out of adjustment once you've applied the brakes once the pistons won't be forced back in their bore because the parking brake holds the shoes outward so on the second application the pedal will feel good..
The other thing to consider is on your Wilwoods are all the bleeders at the top or are two at the bottom... Cause if two are are the bottom it may be that the calipers are designed to be used with either end up but only bled through the top bleeders...
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 07:54 PM
I will be bleeding it again, that's for sure, but should I still bench bleed the master if I've done it already? I had a great pedal before replacing the axle, and I didn't let it run dry last night, so there should be no air in the master. Only the body line or the rear axle lines.
Does anyone know a place to get a pressure bleeder top for a Wilwood tandem master cylinder?
Posted By: GTXKen
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 08:01 PM
Gravity bleed them
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 08:22 PM
Did you already adjust the rear brakes? If not I would do that first. Too much play-movement in the shoes will not allow the brakes to be bled properly with the pump method. You may need a larger bore master or residual valve (doubt it) but make sure you are doing everything else properly first.
Too bad you were not doing this last week, I'd loan you my bleeder.
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 09:48 PM
Hey, I wasn't the one who didn't answer his phone!
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 09:50 PM
Posted By: meepmeep70
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/09/10 11:12 PM
Quote:
Gravity bleed them
gravity bleed my system and everything was new,bench bleed master,all new lines,calipers,wheel cyl.took some time but just had a couple coldies while gravity did the work
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 07:27 AM
Hmm. I went out there tonight and started by manually adjusting the rear drums. Got them set pretty nice. Checked for pedal - no difference. So I set the parking brake like Randy suggested. No difference as well. At this point I was thinking clearly air in the lines.
So I gravity-bled it. It was excruciatingly slow, but I let it go (even with the cap off). After 20 minutes of not seeing a single bubble, I shut the bleeders and pressed the pedal. Still the same as last night. First time is pretty soft, but the second pump is hard.
At this point, I decided to check the brakes on the stands. Put it into gear and the car braked fine. So I took it off the stands and drove it around the block. Even when the pedal almost hits the floor, it has pretty good feel in the brakes. The brakes work better with two pumps, but I'm still afraid to take it on the street just yet.
So tomorrow I will be looking for an adapter for my power bleeder to my Wilwood Tandem Master Cylinder.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 07:47 AM
Quote:
After 20 minutes of not seeing a single bubble,
Gravity bleeding, generally you have to pump them to get the fluid flowing down to the wheel cyls then gravity takes over. W a problem situation like this I would still bench bleed the M/C (by hand), then bleed em out (dont need the power bleeder). You'll be alright when you get the air out of there and adj the shoes
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 03:02 PM
Quote:
Quote:
After 20 minutes of not seeing a single bubble,
Gravity bleeding, generally you have to pump them to get the fluid flowing down to the wheel cyls then gravity takes over. W a problem situation like this I would still bench bleed the M/C (by hand), then bleed em out (dont need the power bleeder). You'll be alright when you get the air out of there and adj the shoes
how does that work? Won't the pedal suck up a bunch of air when you let it go?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 03:16 PM
Quote:
Won't the pedal suck up a bunch of air when you let it go?
A bit but it'll start flowing just keep pumping, it's kind of like if you ever used to siphon gas the old fashioned way 
, you reach a point where the weight of the gas takes over
Posted By: GTXKen
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 03:30 PM
I threw that out there because it is by far the simplest way to bleed brakes and I think its largely overlooked. I usually start the process while I'm still finishing a brake job. I take 4 old butter or sour cream containers and let the fluid flow until I have completely flushed the system of the old fluid. It takes a few minutes longer but its easy and can be done single handedly. fill the master and open all the bleeders up at once. Keep an eye on the master so it doesn't go dry. I just start cleaning up the garage or check other fluids while the system bleeds itself.
Posted By: meepmeep70
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 03:55 PM
Quote:
I threw that out there because it is by far the simplest way to bleed brakes and I think its largely overlooked. I usually start the process while I'm still finishing a brake job. I take 4 old butter or sour cream containers and let the fluid flow until I have completely flushed the system of the old fluid. It takes a few minutes longer but its easy and can be done single handedly. fill the master and open all the bleeders up at once. Keep an eye on the master so it doesn't go dry. I just start cleaning up the garage or check other fluids while the system bleeds itself.
exactly,i used 4 glass jars so i could see bubbles,it does take longer,but i had nobody to help me,by the time the wife got home i was test driving(2hrs later,i got back 
)
Posted By: bigD
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 07:28 PM
Brian,on the wilwoods,they sound like the ones on our sprint car that we used to run. We would bleed from the top outboard bleeder and then the inner one.Do you have a porporting valve or residual valves in the system? I would keep trying the old "pump it up and hold it" routine with a buddy until you have good pedal,D.
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 07:37 PM
So what's the consensus on pumping multiple times in between cracking the bleeder? Is it more, less, or no more effective than just pumping it once and holding to the floor?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 07:38 PM
Quote:
by the time the wife got home i was test driving(2hrs later,i got back )
You wanted to make sure they were perfect right (for her safety)
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 09:28 PM
Quote:
So what's the consensus on pumping multiple times in between cracking the bleeder? Is it more, less, or no more effective than just pumping it once and holding to the floor?
FWIW...I've always pumped it a few times when doing it that way...
(or pressure bleed it, I made up a plate ages ago to fit the Aussie PBR master cylinders, worked great)
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 09:35 PM
How'd you make the plates, Jeff? I am having a hard time understanding how to seal enough air.
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 09:44 PM
I was heading out to the garage soon to work on the car and could snap a pic with my phone, but basically I just took a piece of steel plate, drilled a hole in it, and welded in a quick connect fitting for my compressor air line, then just glued a piece of rubber onto the bottom of the plate. Then just put the plate over top of the master cylinder and clamp it down (just used a big clamp over the top of it and under the master cylinder)
I also use a air regulator before the plate, since you don't want full pressure for it...
Then just hook it all up, hook the air up too it, make sure the master cylinder is full, and start cracking bleed screws.
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 09:49 PM
I can think of a way I can do this. The problem for me is the welding part. But if I just tapped the plate it might work....
Posted By: Pat_Whalen
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 09:51 PM
Quote:
I was heading out to the garage soon to work on the car and could snap a pic with my phone, but basically I just took a piece of steel plate, drilled a hole in it, and welded in a quick connect fitting for my compressor air line, then just glued a piece of rubber onto the bottom of the plate. Then just put the plate over top of the master cylinder and clamp it down (just used a big clamp over the top of it and under the master cylinder)
I also use a air regulator before the plate, since you don't want full pressure for it...
Then just hook it all up, hook the air up too it, make sure the master cylinder is full, and start cracking bleed screws.
Sounds like a great idea, but without a really efficient drier, couldn't this potentially introduce moisture into the system?
Posted By: Pat_Whalen
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 09:52 PM
Quote:
I can think of a way I can do this. The problem for me is the welding part. But if I just tapped the plate it might work....
Either tap the plate or drill the hole large enough to use a couple rubber/plastic washers and a nut on the backside.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 09:57 PM
You only need 10-15 psi
If it will be used only once in a while you can use a small garden sprayer to make one. The plate for the master is easy to make too. Just get yourself a piece of metal just larger than the top of the master, tap the top for air fitting, get a piece of rubber from the hardware store and cut to be used as a gasket. If you have an extra master cylinder cap you can modify that to be used. Put a quick disconnect on your pressure bleeder and fill. As for attaching the plate to the top of the master there are several ways to do that too.
http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htmI have several of these lying around from when I used to work at a dealer.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 09:58 PM
the back side.
Remember you do not need a lot of pressure! Last thing you want is brake fluid sprayed all over you newly painted engine compartment.
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:22 PM
So what I was thinking is something like this:
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:31 PM
Were you thinking of using air pressure from the tire inflator? Or brake fluid under pressure? Who will hold it there while you bleed the brakes?
I would use a quick release air chuck and not use air presure.
Posted By: GTXKen
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:33 PM
I really admire the effort here but is it really necessary?
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:35 PM
no
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:36 PM
I have the correct adaptor for the plastic resouvor MC. Let me see if I can find a picture. A tool guy can get you one. Snap on Mac Matco, etc...
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:38 PM
Even at the dealer I am used to working alone. So I have a lot of this stuff at my disposal. Having it at home now, just makes things easier.
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:46 PM
I have found one on Speedway, but it's 44.99 with the bleeder itself. I just need the adapter - I have a pressure bleeder. I called Wilwood today and the idiot tech had no idea what diameter the resevoir cap was.... this is my M/C (on the left):
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:48 PM
go to the help section of the auto parts store for a replacement cap.
Put fitting on it and...
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:48 PM
I saw that thread. The issue is, I don't think this is a standard GM-size cap.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:52 PM
I think it is a standard mopar cap. If you cannot find one there go by a junkyard and get one off a junk 70-80s mopar
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 10:57 PM
The proper pressure bleeder adaptor doesn't pressurize the plastic resovour. I'll post a picture of it when I get to work in a little while.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 11:03 PM
I think, I know the one you are talking about, you pull the plastic reservoir and put this plug in it's place. But realistically you do not need much presure to bleed a system. Any more and you can damage something or even blow off the reservoir.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 11:07 PM
Brian one of the things I would look at is all the fittings you had to install during your change over. Make sure they are not wet with brake fluid. This would indicate a leak in your system and cause all kinds of problems with air getting into it.
Posted By: Pat_Whalen
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 11:10 PM
I've bled probably 30 sets of brakes before with success, never once having used a pressure system.
I guess I'd fall back on what was asked earlier: is the time it takes to do this really worth it and/or necessary?
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 11:16 PM
Quote:
I've bled probably 30 sets of brakes before with success, never once having used a pressure system.
I guess I'd fall back on what was asked earlier: is the time it takes to do this really worth it and/or necessary?
I agree, and realistically I think there is another problem if he cannot bleed it by normal means. But he asked about presure bleeders, so I gave him some info about them.
http://www.dormanproducts.com/flipbook/Help/help.html
Pg 105, part number 42044
http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-42044-HELP-Master-Cylinder/dp/B000C5C9DO
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 11:16 PM
Quote:
I've bled probably 30 sets of brakes before with success, never once having used a pressure system.
I guess I'd fall back on what was asked earlier: is the time it takes to do this really worth it and/or necessary?
It allows for a though flush is one benifit, second it assures a air free brake job fast. Yes it's worth it even though I had to buy about 8 different adaptors for different MC.
I just did a boat trailer with surge brakes(replaced the MC in the tongue, it's kinda hard to bleed it without one.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 11:43 PM
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 11:51 PM
Wow, I never seen that style before. I have all the others in your picture but not that one.
Posted By: Pat_Whalen
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/10/10 11:59 PM
The one on the left: wouldn't that just introduce air into the system? Is that more for flushing the lines/pv?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 12:00 AM
go pickup a homeless guy & pay him $10 to pump the pedal @ your direction as you take care of each corner. It'd be cheaper than a pressure bleeder that you in all likelyhood will not use very much & will take up space on your shelf and there's always plenty of hungry homeless guys willing to work for you. PS bench bleed the M/C 1st. No mas
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 12:06 AM
Quote:
The one on the left: wouldn't that just introduce air into the system? Is that more for flushing the lines/pv?
I'm sure you have the bleed adaptor first before bleeding the brakes. That's why there is cap or schrader valve there.
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 12:07 AM
Quote:
Wow, I never seen that style before.
Me either, pretty trick looking!
Brian...sounds like you got plenty of other options, but if you did want anything welded, be happy to do it for you on one of your trips down 
Posted By: Pat_Whalen
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 12:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:
The one on the left: wouldn't that just introduce air into the system? Is that more for flushing the lines/pv?
I'm sure you have the bleed adaptor first before bleeding the brakes. That's why there is cap or schrader valve there.
But if the rubber has seated against the bottom of the MC reservoir and isn't allowing any more fluid into the MC body, how are you filling the lines with fluid and not air? I understand the workings of a plate above the reservoir as it will pressurize the fluid that is already in there, but I can't wrap my head around this other design.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 12:13 AM
Quote:
Our pressure bleeder didn't work with the Wilwood Master Cylinder top.
The only reason PB adaptors were mentioned is because of Sharpies first post, Rapidrobert.
Don't have any "homeless" people living near my shop to help.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 12:14 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The one on the left: wouldn't that just introduce air into the system? Is that more for flushing the lines/pv?
I'm sure you have the bleed adaptor first before bleeding the brakes. That's why there is cap or schrader valve there.
But if the rubber has seated against the bottom of the MC reservoir and isn't allowing any more fluid into the MC body, how are you filling the lines with fluid and not air? I understand the workings of a plate above the reservoir as it will pressurize the fluid that is already in there, but I can't wrap my head around this other design.
Pat the adaptors in the thread are to be used with a pressure bleeder tank. They are not to be used with just air.
You have a presurized bottle of brake fluid pumped in.
or
The cheaper more at home user friendly version on the bottom. Introducing just air on top of a adaptor will run the master out of fluid too quickly and yes put air into the system..
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 12:31 AM
Just some advice if you do have a pressure bleeder of this style...
Do not store brake fluid in this. Brake fluid is very hydroscopic meaning it will draw the water out of the air. Drain and put new fluid into the reservoir each time you use it.
I even empty and refill the bladder style when I use it.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 12:53 AM
Quote:
Just some advice if you do have a pressure bleeder of this style...
Do not store brake fluid in this. Brake fluid is very hydroscopic meaning it will draw the water out of the air. Drain and put new fluid into the reservoir each time you use it.
I even empty and refill the bladder style when I use it.
I wouldn't even use that one if there no blatter between the fluid and the air. Your right Heathservices, you don't want to subject your brake fluid to any more air than you have to. In a blatter type bleeder it's kept under pressure where no air can get to it, IMO better than storing it in a bottle with air in it. I don't mt my bleeder after each use, I just keep it under pressure, been using it since the 80s
Holds 1+ gallon.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 01:10 AM
Will a pressure bleeder properly bleed the MC as well?
I only ask since on my car, there is only ~2.5" between the MC and the strut tower. Replacing the lines took 10-20 minutes of cursing each, which probably allowed air back into the MC.
If I can just pressure bleed and be done with it...
On the truck the MC is all out by itself, so replacing the lines is easy.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 01:48 AM
Always bench bleed first, then mount it up and push the air out of the lines with new fluid. I don't even watch for bubbles, I just bleed until I have new fluid and I'm good. Never fails.
Posted By: 1970Dart3406
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 02:52 AM
I'd just pump it up, crack the bleeder with a clear tube running into a 20oz pop bottle, and then pump it with the bleeder open. Eventually you will not suck any of the air back in and all of the air will be out. I've done it this way by myself and had no problems. May have to open and close the bleeder a few times, but other than that, it should work.
Posted By: 10 o to go
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 02:10 PM
Did you install a new disc brake setup ?
Reason i asked and I glanced through most post .
If you installed new calipers you might have them on wrong sides
.
I installed from drum to disc and tried to bleed for 2 days finally called factort rep
.Peddle would pump tight then go weak .
post your findings .
Don
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 02/11/10 03:12 PM
Well, I walked out there last night expecting the worst and hopped in the car to get a mental reference point of my pedal's starting point. I press the pedal down and much to my surprise, the pedal isn't rock hard, but is at least 90% of the pedal I had before I swapped brakes. I wonder if sitting just allowed the bubbles to flow to the top or something?
Posted By: sogtx
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 03/15/10 02:41 AM
pushrod pedal / releasing all the way ?
Posted By: sogtx
Re: Bled brakes today - still outta whack? - 03/15/10 09:36 PM
what did you find ?
