340 SB Roller Rockers
#463841
09/09/09 11:11 AM
09/09/09 11:11 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 468 Germany, Northcoast
Buschi340
OP
mopar
|
OP
mopar
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 468
Germany, Northcoast
|
Hi guys, I need some advise on Roller Rockers. What is the best bang for the buck and where to buy? My original setup is making so much noise in the last few weeks that I'm thinking of something new. And why not a set of roller rockers. Something similar to Crane.... I want to keep the hydraulic lifters so I need adjustable or not or doesn't it matter? Where do I have to pay attention on? Any tip is welcome before I'm wasting my money. Thanks a lot in advance. Michael
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: MoparforLife]
#463843
09/09/09 12:48 PM
09/09/09 12:48 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
#463844
09/09/09 01:10 PM
09/09/09 01:10 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
|
Quote:
but since Dulcich states i don't need them i'm going to run out to the garage and take them off..
BTW - he has forgot more than you will ever know. If you like them, run them, you ain't gaining squat, unless you are running a Chevy they need all the help they can get, maybe that is what you are thinking. I will spend my money for something more cost efficient. If you are running a Chevy they need all the help they can get, maybe that is what you are thinking.
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: MoparforLife]
#463845
09/09/09 01:14 PM
09/09/09 01:14 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Quote:
but since Dulcich states i don't need them i'm going to run out to the garage and take them off..
Still the smart ---. If you like them, run them, you ain't gaining squat, but I will spend my money for something more cost efficient.
You or Dulcich have numbers to prove your/his claim??..i doubt it..by the way believe nothing you read in those rags,they print that crap so people buy them..
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
#463846
09/09/09 01:53 PM
09/09/09 01:53 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
|
Yeah, I just happen to have personal experience with this. Unlike some, I don't post unless I have personal experience with subject at hand. I ran a complete season + with 1.6 rollers and compared to the numerous seasons that I ran with the the OEM 1.5 type rockers and the rockers that are currently installed on the car. I went from a best of 11.712 flat to a best with the 1.6 rollers to 11.698. I luckily found a rube for the rollers and sold them for about what I had in them (they weren't eBag specials either) and am still running with the MP stamped rockers. A couple of other locals are are running with rollers on 440's and they also have gained nothing but are still running them because they have them. But you don't want to believe that so: run what you want - beleive what you want. This exerpt from Hughes sight even if you don't believe writen words. They also wouldn't right it without back up knowledge seeing how they sell the parts. - In the late 50s the O.E.M. stamped rockers started to fail from the high spring pressure with the more aggressive camshafts and higher RPMs and so-called fully rollerized rockers were developed. For the most part, we are talking Chevys here but you've got to start somewhere. The needle roller bearings were used at the trunion because of the Chevy's problem of not having full engine oil pressure at that pressure point, like Mopars do. Needle roller bearings were used because they can operate with very little oil and no pressure, although they provide no friction reduction over a plain bearing surface. Most high RPM (14000 19000RPM) race engines use full oil pressure to these high stressed areas and use no needle bearings;they utilize a plain bearing type surface. Now this can mean anything from an aluminum rocker or steel rocker to something with a special surface treatment (conditioning) to a material like a D.L.C. (diamond like carbon) coating or some similar frictionless coating on the shaft and/or the rocker. The coated or treated rockers are definitely on the high dollar end of the group but they are the most durable and highest power deliverers, because of the reduced friction and harmonics. The needle bearing rockers are a fairly cost-effective solution but they have reduced life expectancy. All the pressure and shock in the valve train is concentrated on 1 or 2 needles at the most. The rockers only rock in a small arc of approximately 25 or 30. If the rocker or the shaft actually rotated the needles would live longer. Here again is a conundrum. The smaller needles spread the load over more needles, but they are more fragile you just cant win! Some of the roller rockers even have needle rollers in the roller at the tip of the rocker. The unit loading is very high with needle bearings. All these extra parts are just more points of potential failure. Oh yeah, I personally have seen them break and have little needle bearings scattered through the motor.
Clean it, if it's Dirty. Oil it, if it Squeaks.
But: Don't fix it, if it Works!
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: cruzin]
#463848
09/09/09 07:25 PM
09/09/09 07:25 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
|
Quote:
I will leave the debate as to whether or not there is any performance gains by going with roller rockers vs. the stamped OEM to others.
I will add that it is my understanding that the OEM may vary as to their true ratio. Perhaps this is due to manufacturing/quality control or wear over time etc. I seem to recall that they tend to vary and are oftentimes found to be <1.5.
The other consideration you may need to look at if you end up going with a roller rockers is the need to purchase a spacer kit as well. This cost additional $$ if that's a factor.
Good luck and hope you achieve the desired affects.
I believe if you go back to my post you will see that I credited any improvement if any to a more accurate ratio. I had Cranes and they came with the spacers. I also stated to find the noise problem first and recommended a doctile iron adjustable set instead of the rollers if a truer ratio and adjustables is what you want. On the street you will never notice a performance difference. But again it is up to you, it is your car.
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: Buschi340]
#463850
09/10/09 06:14 AM
09/10/09 06:14 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
|
Yes they do break as I have posted above, I have seen it happpen, not just onece either. You won't get a decent set of rollers for the price of a set of OEM rockers or a set of doctile iron adjustable rockers either for that matter. Like said above you will also need a set of push rods if you go with adjustable rockers. If you want adjustables get yourself a set of 273 rockers and a set of push rods for a engine with hydraulic lifters and adjustable rockers. OEM 273 mechanical push roda are way to long to use with hydraulic lifers. If you are looking for wear on the rockers it is a going to be a tough call You will take off a cover and see that there is a large gap between the rocker shaft and the top of the rocker arm, this is completely normal and is that way new. I would sure check out an see what kind of noise you are hearing. It could also be a exhaust leak.. A lot of people make this mistake.
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: Buschi340]
#463853
09/10/09 08:41 AM
09/10/09 08:41 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
Thanks a lot for the good advises, MoparforLife.
Most what I'm concerned about is, as you noted, what happens if a bearing fails and loses a pieces straight into the engine. That's what I'm most afraid of. Did it happen? Is there something known?
The rattling noise I guess is coming from worn out rockers or shaft. Think I have to check this first. But they are now 30 years old. And why should I purchase a new OEM set if a Roller Rocker Set does cost similar? Hm, I will ask a buddy if he does have a set for lend. Cam is new, slightly hotter than stock 340, custom grinded to my car specs. Lifter & pushrods are new.
I not defenitly in need of roller rocker - I'm looking for "better than stock" because I have to change so I thought why not roller rocker.
Thanks again so far.
if you think the noise is from worn rockers/shafts, PM me, I have a set of OEM rockers from a low mileage 318 that are in excellent shape that I'll make you a deal on.
another thing to check would be to make sure your pushrods are long enough. lots of noise, about the only thing I can think of that could cause it would be insufficient preload.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: patrick]
#463854
09/10/09 09:20 AM
09/10/09 09:20 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,602 md
mopars4ever
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,602
md
|
Quote:
Comp cams magnum roller rockers are a nice setup,mine cost just over $400.00..but since Dulcich states i don't need them i'm going to run out to the garage and take them off..
Good, I`ll give you twenty bucks for them plus a autographed summit racing sticker.
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#463855
09/10/09 09:48 AM
09/10/09 09:48 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 468 Germany, Northcoast
Buschi340
OP
mopar
|
OP
mopar
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 468
Germany, Northcoast
|
ok, I had this noise before and after I changed Lifter, pushrods and Cam. All came from the same shop which is http://www.buyperformanceparts.com/ I will check for an exhaust leak but I really can not imaging that it can sound that mechanical. Furthermore I will check the Lifter again with pressing a hammer handle on the rockers while engine is running in idle. Maybe it is a really good advise to have a look at 273 rockers. But I don't want them adjustable, keep the hydraulic lifter. Do these use cup-cup pushrods?
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: Buschi340]
#463856
09/10/09 10:50 AM
09/10/09 10:50 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
a small exhaust leak can sound like a mechanical tick, but it usually only happens under load. On my old 360, I did have a little valvetrain noise, nothing loud enough to be annoying, but you could hear it a little with the hood up. the rockers were tight on the shaft, no real noticable wear (egg shaped holes in the rocker, out of round shafts), but the rockers did have some freedom to slide sideways on the shaft, and I'm confident that was the sound I was hearing. some shims or light springs between the rockers, and the rockers and hold downs probably would have eliminated the noise.
setup was a comp XE262, stock pushrods, rockers, and shafts.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: mopars4ever]
#463857
09/10/09 02:09 PM
09/10/09 02:09 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Quote:
Comp cams magnum roller rockers are a nice setup,mine cost just over $400.00..but since Dulcich states i don't need them i'm going to run out to the garage and take them off..
Good, I`ll give you twenty bucks for them plus a autographed summit racing sticker.
I think i'll have to pass on that fine offer..
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: Buschi340]
#463859
09/11/09 09:36 AM
09/11/09 09:36 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
what are the exact cam specs? adv. dur, .050 dur, and lift?
unless it's quite large, you're wasting your money on roller or adjustible rockers.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: 340 SB Roller Rockers
[Re: patrick]
#463860
09/11/09 01:27 PM
09/11/09 01:27 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576 Escondido, CA
kick_the_reverb
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
|
I have a set of bushed stainless steel roller tipped rockers from RAS. But I bought it to be compatible with any future upgrades, the Edelbrock heads I bought had double springs on them, and I was advised they were too much for stock rockers. If you're staying with a mild cam you don't need anything fancy. You can use stock style stamped, or mechanical style adjustable (can be bushed and ratio corrected by RAS).
Good luck, Ran
"Hey mister, something's wrong with your car, it idles roughly" - number one comment I got in Israel when daily driving a 70 Barracuda with a lopey cam.
Currently working on - 1966 Dodge A100 van 318/auto Finally - disc brakes on the front. In the plans - rear disc brakes, B&M 250 blower
|
|
|
|
|