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Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: AndyF] #31498
10/14/06 11:33 AM
10/14/06 11:33 AM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Quote:

i'd use a dome piston for around 14:1cr, and std EZ-1's with some minor clean up/valve job corrected, and more than likely a roller cam.





Quote:

It would be interesting to see how that combo of roller cam and std EZ heads would work. The only motor I built with the std EZ head didn't really work out so well. Once I had the EZ heads opened up to max wedge size they took off. But I'm sure if a person played with those heads a bit in std form they could be made to work. There are a lot of fast cars with heads that are worse than a std EZ!




i guess that my calling the EZ-1's the "standard" head might be confusing.
the EZ-1 is the non-ported MW sized head.
that is what i would use, not the std port EZ head.

the 4 versions are:
*EZ (std port, no porting, stock oiling, std rockers)

*EZ-1 (MW port, no porting, stock oiling, std rockers)

*EZ-295CNC (MW port, 295cc intake port, external oiling, std rockers)

*EZ-325CNC (MW port, 325cc intake runner, external oiling, uses ICH 440-1 type offset intake rockers)

well...actually....to be more precise.....i would buy the std port EZ's because they are less expensive, and then i'd open them up to MW size myself.
sort of like paying myself the $150 for the job instead of Indy


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: FastOrange] #31499
10/14/06 12:59 PM
10/14/06 12:59 PM

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Quote:

Let me stir the pot some more
Other than external oiling, how about a 4.5" stroke in an RB block? Is it doable. Pros/Cons????



Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: fast68plymouth] #31500
10/14/06 02:43 PM
10/14/06 02:43 PM
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Oregon
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AndyF Offline OP
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That makes it clearer. You were talking about the EZ-1 and I thought you ment the 906 size port version. I don't have any issue with your statement that the EZ-1 + roller cam is a better way to get to 700 hp than the CNC + flat tappet combo I posted.

I do have a question though about what cam you would pick and what the valvetrain parts would be. For instance, which springs and rocker arms would work well together on the cam you pick?

With the flat tappet cam the spring choice and rocker arm selection is a little easier (and probably less expensive). With the MP .620 class of cam a person could run Isky nodulars and a decent dual spring set up at 1.900 installed height. That is all pretty inexpensive stuff that drops right into place without machine work. Would that also be true for a bracket type roller cam?

BTW - to fill out your list of EZ heads we should point out that Jeff's CNC version is 309 cc, flows 350 cfm, uses internal oiling and standard rocker arms. So it fits in between the Little Easy and Big Easy options from Indy.

Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: fast68plymouth] #31501
10/14/06 02:59 PM
10/14/06 02:59 PM
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Airdrie, AB
Mills Offline
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OOTB EZ-1 - how far into the port does the Indy CNC go?

For an average guy, I think paying the $150 is a no-brainer. You get CNC matched bowls too. I can port heads, but I feel OK going in on iron heads....a set heads that a slip doesn't mean going back to teh boneyard - another ballgame for me

And, if I remember correctly, the OOTB EZ-1 flow wasn't too far of the EZ-295 version. I think a good bang for the buck would be some EZ-1's, and having you do a basic prep on them - ie touch up the valvejob.


1967 Satellite, CNC Eddy Headed 500ci Street Mauler
(Dyno'ed @ 600 HP / 650 ft-lbs)

2016 Challenger Hellcat - Holy Hell
2012 Hemi Ram Sport Crew Cab
2011 Avenger, Pentastar V-6
2007 SRT-8 Charger (Dyno'ed @ 470 RWHP)
1986 Caravelle, 318, aka "Rosco", Back Road Burner!

ALL Black...Bad Boys always wear Black!
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: AndyF] #31502
10/14/06 03:03 PM
10/14/06 03:03 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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i generally use Isky 9385 springs set up at 2.00" with CV products Ti retainers and Comp 10deg locks.
this is 240lbs on the seat, and 600lbs at 1.300.

ive sold several sets of EZ heads with that spring/retainer combo....works well for a typical low maintenance mid-.600 lift bracket roller for motors turning 7300-ish or less(depending on cam profile).

if i were looking for more power, yet keep things pretty reliable, i'd run a Comp 951 spring at 1.950, with a 1.6 rocker and a cam in the low-700's for lift.
i'd just use HS rockers, since they fit these heads pretty well, seem to hold up okay, and are readily available.

at 14:1CR, depending on the overall car/chassis combo......i'd be looking for something around 280 @ .050.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 700 hp default combo? #31503
10/14/06 03:51 PM
10/14/06 03:51 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:

Quote:

Let me stir the pot some more
Other than external oiling, how about a 4.5" stroke in an RB block? Is it doable. Pros/Cons????







Dram,
Is it really off topic? I thought we were discussing an easy, affordable 700 that anyone could duplicate? Not saying the 4.5 option won't be dismissed as overkill in a stock block...but it merits more than an emoticon I would think.

I really wouldn't consider anything less than titanuim retainers, at this level, I think the initial price is justified by the advantages.


"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: MoparBilly] #31504
10/15/06 01:19 AM
10/15/06 01:19 AM
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Oregon
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I don't have any experience with the 4.50 crank but it looks to me like it would pretty much force a guy to run an external oiling system which adds money. I'm also not sure if there are very many stocking pistons for the 4.50 stroke.

The 4.375 with 2.200 pins should clear with only minor grinding. I would assume that it will clear a 1/2 internal pickup but I haven't put one together myself. Once again, I'm not sure how many shelf stock pistons are available for the 4.375 setup. As soon as you go custom piston the bill goes up a bit more. External oiling adds at least $500 to the tab if not more.

I'm still on the fence with the roller vs. solid flat tappet question. Since we're talking about a 6500 rpm type of motor here it doesn't seem like a person would have to put a roller in it. And you certainly don't need the roller to make the 700 hp. Roller's add about $1000 to the tab by the time you get the lifters, bigger springs, better rocker arms, bronze gear, etc.

Reliability is a toss up. Lots of flat tappet melt downs these days but there seems to be just as many roller lifters biting the dust. Not to mention, the springs in a roller motor seem to require more maintenance.

I guess if a guy is going to want to go faster down the road then buying the roller now makes sense. On the other hand, maybe just building a reliable 700 hp bullet is good enough and the guy could spend the grand on the chassis where he'll most likely need it?

Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: AndyF] #31505
10/15/06 10:53 AM
10/15/06 10:53 AM
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Airdrie, AB
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Quote:

The 4.375 with 2.200 pins should clear with only minor grinding. I would assume that it will clear a 1/2 internal pickup but I haven't put one together myself.




I'd like to know if this crank would fit...even w/ a 3/8" pick-up.



1967 Satellite, CNC Eddy Headed 500ci Street Mauler
(Dyno'ed @ 600 HP / 650 ft-lbs)

2016 Challenger Hellcat - Holy Hell
2012 Hemi Ram Sport Crew Cab
2011 Avenger, Pentastar V-6
2007 SRT-8 Charger (Dyno'ed @ 470 RWHP)
1986 Caravelle, 318, aka "Rosco", Back Road Burner!

ALL Black...Bad Boys always wear Black!
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: Mills] #31506
10/15/06 11:25 AM
10/15/06 11:25 AM
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Oregon
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It lookes to me like a 4.375 will fit with internal oiling as long as you use the 2.200 rods. The 4.250 clears without any grinding so you only need to go out another 0.063 to clear the 4.375.

Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: AndyF] #31507
10/15/06 12:28 PM
10/15/06 12:28 PM
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Houston, Texas
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Hey, we're already up to 4.375" I was just wondering out loud about the 4.5" crank
because it's only recently become available as a "budget crank". Dram builds race engines for a living, so judging by his response maybe there is a lot more involved that drives the budget up even higher. I couldn't help but think about a 455" Pontiac engine. Long stroke 4.210" X small bore 4.150". A tons of torque low RPM motor.
If we're only talking custom pistons, external oiling, and some block grinding doesn't sound like a giant amount of $$$ to me. Maybe you spend the $$$ there and don't do a roller cam setup? Anyway, I know the thread was about 700HP/on a tight budget. Anyway, great thread Andy, you could put the 4.5" down as an "option"

Last edited by FastOrange; 10/15/06 12:31 PM.
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: AndyF] #31508
12/07/06 01:16 AM
12/07/06 01:16 AM
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An update to this post since I just got back from the dyno with another combo.

Same basic 505 with 13.5 compression, CNC EZ heads, 440-2 intake, 1050 Dominator, Comp Cam MM305 flat tappet grind, 2 inch headers, super stock oil pan. 740 hp at 6400 rpm, 640 ft-lbs of torque at 5500 rpm.

This is a reasonable package that most guys could afford. 440Source crank, SCAT rods, Diamond pistons, Comp shelf cam, etc. I ran Schubeck lifters due to the cam changes that I do. A std set of lifters should live with this cam though if the break in is done carefully. Here is a picture for the archives.

Last edited by AndyF; 12/07/06 01:19 AM.
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: AndyF] #31509
12/07/06 02:15 AM
12/07/06 02:15 AM
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Rancho Cucamonga, Calif.
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Heres a combo that my friend Robert just finished and its going to be in CarCraft pretty soon. Stock 440 block and crank with offset ground rod journals(470") and basically a 7.1" long BBC big and small end rod, 10.9:1 compression, pump gas, Box Stock Victor heads and manifold with a .670 lift solid roller with 270@.050. It made 711 horsepower with a 1000 cfm 4150 carb. The heads are like the 2nd set and T@D made the rockers for them using these heads. Seems like 700 horsepower just got a little easier to make. There was very little tuning on the Dyno and more is to come because the engine is still on the Dyno.


10.53 @ 125mph. 1.37 60 foot. Caltracs and Monoleafs, AFCO shocks.

Heads by INDIO MOTOR MACHINE; IMM.
CP Pistons, PC Carbs.
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: PUNK] #31510
12/07/06 10:26 AM
12/07/06 10:26 AM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:

470"... 10.9:1 compression, pump gas, Box Stock Victor heads and manifold with a .670 lift solid roller with [Email]270@.050.[/Email] It made 711 horsepower with a 1000 cfm 4150 carb.



On whose dyno? Sounds to me.

Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: BradH] #31511
12/07/06 11:06 AM
12/07/06 11:06 AM
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Oregon
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Probably Westech if it is for CarCraft. Their dyno used to be a little happy but they said they corrected it. I didn't think the Victor heads were good enough to go 700 hp out of the box on a pump gas 470. Guess we'll have to get some more people running them to see.

Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: AndyF] #31512
12/07/06 12:09 PM
12/07/06 12:09 PM
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Quote:

I didn't think the Victor heads were good enough to go 700 hp out of the box on a pump gas 470.



Me either, which is why I asked.

Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: PUNK] #31513
12/07/06 12:21 PM
12/07/06 12:21 PM
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State of Corruption
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Quote:

Heres a combo that my friend Robert just finished and its going to be in CarCraft pretty soon. Stock 440 block and crank with offset ground rod journals(470") and basically a 7.1" long BBC big and small end rod, 10.9:1 compression, pump gas, Box Stock Victor heads and manifold with a .670 lift solid roller with [Email]270@.050.[/Email] It made 711 horsepower with a 1000 cfm 4150 carb. The heads are like the 2nd set and [Email]T@D[/Email] made the rockers for them using these heads. Seems like 700 horsepower just got a little easier to make. There was very little tuning on the Dyno and more is to come because the engine is still on the Dyno.





How soon is "soon" in the world of Car Craft type mags?

Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: camdog440] #31514
12/08/06 11:05 AM
12/08/06 11:05 AM
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San Diego
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My combo which will be fired this weekend(I hope), I think is in the ball park.
508ci
440 .040 over w/girdle
4.250 crank, 7.100 rod, ross flat tops(11.3 comp)
Scott Brown solid FT 259/266 @ 50, 625/635 lift w/1.6 rockers, 112 LSA
EZ heads MW ported (340cfm @ 600)
440-2 intake, 900cfm carb

wad ya think??


1968 Dart
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: StrokedDart] #31515
12/08/06 12:17 PM
12/08/06 12:17 PM
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Chicago, IL
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My combo which will be fired this weekend(I hope), I think is in the ball park.
Quote:

508ci
440 .040 over w/girdle
4.250 crank, 7.100 rod, ross flat tops(11.3 comp)
Scott Brown solid FT 259/266 @ 50, 625/635 lift w/1.6 rockers, 112 LSA
EZ heads MW ported (340cfm @ 600)
440-2 intake, 900cfm carb

wad ya think??




John - I think the combo sounds awesome and if nothing else, should come real close to 700hp. I think it will be a shoe-in with a bigger carb, just my .


2 kids and a dog
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: TonyS451] #31516
12/08/06 01:34 PM
12/08/06 01:34 PM
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San Diego
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Thanks Tony, yea I know the carb is too small, when I get the $$$ I think it will get a pro-systems Dominator. I owe you some pics too, don't I?


1968 Dart
Re: 700 hp default combo? [Re: PUNK] #31517
12/08/06 02:46 PM
12/08/06 02:46 PM
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Quote:

Heres a combo that my friend Robert just finished and its going to be in CarCraft pretty soon. Stock 440 block and crank with offset ground rod journals(470") and basically a 7.1" long BBC big and small end rod, 10.9:1 compression, pump gas, Box Stock Victor heads and manifold with a .670 lift solid roller with [Email]270@.050.[/Email] It made 711 horsepower with a 1000 cfm 4150 carb. The heads are like the 2nd set and [Email]T@D[/Email] made the rockers for them using these heads. Seems like 700 horsepower just got a little easier to make. There was very little tuning on the Dyno and more is to come because the engine is still on the Dyno.




Ok! We can race dyno's all day long and the
only way we will know if the combo works is at the track.
He say's 711 hp and he could be right.
Then if the dyno likes to make good numbers
just for a magazine, we can assume the motor should be
in the 680 hp range or even higher. YES:NO?
I think a 470" with OOTB Victors making 680+ hp
is very good. Only time will tell on the Victors,
and when more pro builds are in the works.
Like I said, it all depends on how it works at the track.
In the end, it's all good for MOPAR.


Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
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