Honestly, cam selection toughest part
#2743560
02/16/20 01:50 PM
02/16/20 01:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 19 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
'70Satellite
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Hey all. I'm sure you have seen this question a thousand times, but here's another. I'm putting as much info below as possible to help make the best decision.
1970 Plymouth Satellite 2 door 3.55 posi Street driven only, no racing, weekend cruiser Need vacuum for power brakes Need reliability and drive ability 1977 440 out of a New Yorker being rebuilt, along with the 1977 727 tranny. Block bored .030', decked, align bored, and of course crack checked and pressure tested(all good) 452 Heads resurfaced, crack tested and pressure tested(all good) Still deciding on pocket porting, but right now heads stock Original crank ground and reusing SCAT H-Beam rods KB pistons Comp ratio according to shop will be 9.4-9.5/1 1970 cast intake 1970 Carter AVS 750 carb Doug's headers 2.5" dual exhaust with Flowmaster 40 Series Will be running 91 octane The machine shop has been great to deal with, and I am in no way questioning them. I value their opinion but as this is my first build, I always like other opinions from those with far more experience than I. The next decision will be on camshaft. Lets assume the heads stay stock. Lets assume the intake gets upgraded at some point, but not for a year or two. I will list the cams being suggested by various people so far. I would appreciate any and all opinions. Just to be clear, the above parts have been already purchased, so those won't be changed or swapped out.
Mopar Performance Cam P4452783
Lunati 10230702 CompCams XE268H
Crower 271 Summit 6401
Hughes SEH2832BL
Melling MTD-2
I've personally spoken to all these manufacturers, and given them the exact information above, and these are their recommendations. Obviously I'd like to have a pretty aggressive idle, but not at the expense of drive-ability or reliability. So please, let me know your opinions. A 2400 Stall converter is also a possibility to upgrade along with whatever the tranny re-builder suggests. Low end and mid range torque or priorities over pure HP. Estimates for this motor are in the 325-350hp range right now, depending on camshaft i guess. Thank you for your suggestions.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743587
02/16/20 02:41 PM
02/16/20 02:41 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219 New York
polyspheric
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Easier to comment if you posted the cam data rather than just the part numbers: Nominal duration .050" duration LSA Installed CL
Obviously I'd like to have a pretty aggressive idle, but not at the expense of drive-ability Those are opposites, especially with a low stall converter.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: lockjaw-express]
#2743610
02/16/20 03:25 PM
02/16/20 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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gregsdart
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I agree on contacting Dwayne. The cam/ converter combo is obviously critical here. I would ask for a converter that would act like a converter with the same stall charactoristics as a 1970 Hemi 10 3/4 inch stock unit. Have it built to handle the torque of the 440, which shouldn't be very expensive. At most those converters might stall 2800? But the street manners will be like a (almost) stock converter. With that type of converter, you will need a conservative cam that will run smoothly at 1800 to 2000 rpm and probably peak about 5500 at most, maybe 5200. The most fun is just driving around in a responsive combo, very similar to a stocker. The more radical a combo gets, the less fun it is to cruise around in IMHO
Last edited by gregsdart; 02/16/20 03:26 PM.
8.582, 160.18 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743612
02/16/20 03:26 PM
02/16/20 03:26 PM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 179 California, U.S.A.
Torquemonster440
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Just a few things to consider.. cams are sized according to their duration... not lift.. something in the 235° @.050" range would be a Good starting point for what you're looking for. Just remember as said before the most critical relationship here is between cam and converter. These two have to play well together or the combo will respond poorly. Also remember LSA "lobe separation angle" will have a large impact on idle quality i.e. vacuum signal for power brakes. A "tighter" LSA [ 108° ] range will have more aggressive characteristics at idle.. (less vacuum) a "wider" LSA [ 112° ] range will have a much smoother idle (more vacuum) better for power brakes. So as with all component selections when building a performance engine there are trade offs... it just depends on where your priorities lie...driveability vs. Max power.If it's never gonna be raced look for something that will work well from a durability standpoint also... (no crazy aggressive ramp rates). Just remember.. if you stick a cam in it and hate it, it can be changed. It might take a few tries to nail down exactly what you want. And what you want in a performance camshaft may change in 5 years ? Who knows ? Most importantly have fun.
Last edited by Torquemonster440; 02/16/20 03:38 PM.
1966 Satellie.. 12.55 @107.75. 906 heads. 3780 lbs.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743631
02/16/20 04:01 PM
02/16/20 04:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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fast68plymouth
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Headers or ex manifolds?
Quench dome pistons and proper quench distance set or not?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2743656
02/16/20 05:02 PM
02/16/20 05:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 19 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
'70Satellite
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Doug's headers, with 2" primaries and 3.5" collectors. Regarding the quench question, I don't have the answer. I assume the machine shop has that information, and I'll try to get it.
Last edited by '70Satellite; 02/16/20 05:03 PM.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743666
02/16/20 05:31 PM
02/16/20 05:31 PM
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Torquemonster440
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Doug's headers, with 2" primaries and 3.5" collectors. Regarding the quench question, I don't have the answer. I assume the machine shop has that information, and I'll try to get it. Have you bought those headers yet? They're great quality, but a poor match for a stock intake and mild hydraulic cam. Somthing with a 1 3/4" primary or smaller would be a better match.
Last edited by Torquemonster440; 02/16/20 05:58 PM.
1966 Satellie.. 12.55 @107.75. 906 heads. 3780 lbs.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743736
02/16/20 08:38 PM
02/16/20 08:38 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Cab_Burge
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Do you want the best power or the best manners when it comes to WOT driving If power go big, if nice sound and okay performance go little on everything, carb, cam and exhaust As far as the mufflers your choosing I wouldn't use them Flow stoppers Look for a straight through flow design mufler and mount them behind the rear end so the exhaust tips are even with or stick out a little behind the rear bumper. Have you consider a three inch exhaust system? If not I would Summit offers them and they work great on both A and B bodies cars
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/16/20 08:39 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2743745
02/16/20 09:00 PM
02/16/20 09:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2020
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'70Satellite
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The exhaust is already in the car, sitting behind the 318. It will just get cut back from the manifolds to the header connection when the engine is in the car. It's really about manners and driveability, and vacuum for PB. The tricky part with cams seems to be having a cam that you can eventually grow in to with upgrades, like intake, head work, etc. Just trying to make the best choice. I actually like the sound of the exhaust with the 318, so we will see with the mild 440. Keep in mind, the engine builder/machine shop has said HP with this set up is going to be in the 325-350 range. Pretty mild. Thank you for your input. Much appreciated.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743759
02/16/20 09:26 PM
02/16/20 09:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Guitar Jones
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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If you want an aggressive idle I don't think any of those cams are going to give it to you in a 440.
"Come get your wife"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Front and rear disc and hydroboost conversion. 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#2743773
02/16/20 10:07 PM
02/16/20 10:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 19 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
'70Satellite
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Well, from what i have been learning, a thumping idle, and a car with good street manners for weekend cruising may not go hand in hand. The top priority is driveability and reliability, so I guess the idle not so important actually. Hey, I'm learning still. First Mopar. First restore and engine build. As far as off the shelf cams, It seems like the Crower 271 or the Lunati 702 or 703 are popular.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743775
02/16/20 10:11 PM
02/16/20 10:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,022 s. e. pa.
calrobb2000
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hi look at crane 272 max power .
it will do every thing you you have listed !
i have power brakes app 16 in vac at idle !
12.9 at 107 with 3.55 in 3700 lb car drive any where !
Last edited by calrobb2000; 02/16/20 10:11 PM.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743776
02/16/20 10:30 PM
02/16/20 10:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,909 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
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Well, from what i have been learning, a thumping idle, and a car with good street manners for weekend cruising may not go hand in hand. The top priority is driveability and reliability, so I guess the idle not so important actually. Hey, I'm learning still. First Mopar. First restore and engine build. As far as off the shelf cams, It seems like the Crower 271 or the Lunati 702 or 703 are popular. I run the Lunati 703 (used to be the 60303...494/513) in a 30 over 440. The 702 is pretty mild.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743780
02/16/20 10:36 PM
02/16/20 10:36 PM
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polyspheric
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W/r/t I assume the machine shop has that information Your heads have a cast chamber recess which is not filled by dome pop-up, but should be. The common practice is mill all 8 recessed surfaces to the same depth (use the lightest cut that will do this), use domed pistons (KB makes one) and fit the P-H clearance to .035-.040" @ TDC. If zero or negative deck clearance is used (similar to OEM pistons) the engine will be more knock sensitive and (may) require a slower or conservative spark curve. If you go down to a 10" converter you can live with a bigger cam like 240° @ .050" (and great idle) but lose some mileage. You shouldn't go too high on stall, or you will have some converter slip at low cruising speed due to your axle ratio - your best cruising RPM will be above your stall speed.
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743781
02/16/20 10:38 PM
02/16/20 10:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,793 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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I would recommend something less than 230 dur @0.050". Here is why: 1) you want good vacum for PB 2) you want a bit of a lumpy idle, but not overdo it I used to run this Crower Compu-Pro 282HDP in a SB 360 motor. With 3.55 gearing and 9.5:1 CR it was a blast, loved the street manners, no complaints. The car still pulled pretty good vacum, I think about 12-14" if I remember (it was a good 20 yrs ago). I stepped up to a Hughes Engines HE3844AL (238/244 @0.050" on 108LSA) on my last build. That cam really needed a 4k converter in a heavy car like mine. It is pretty rumpy alright, but only pulls 7" of vacum, the throttle response suffers. Now, the car overall combo is very different than when the Crower was in. I am running a 4.10 gear now for one and 10.5:1 CR. So while I throughly enjoy my current setup, given what you stated as your goals and focus I would recommend you watch the duration @0.050".
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Re: Honestly, cam selection toughest part
[Re: '70Satellite]
#2743789
02/16/20 10:57 PM
02/16/20 10:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,719 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Your going to have to try pretty hard to only make 325 HP with any 440 motor 9.5 to 1 compression with decent stock type heads dual plane intake and 750 CFM carb. Been there done that If you do decide to dyno test it let us know your results and what brand engine dyno All the pump gas iron head street and strip motors I've built,35+, have all made at least 400 HP on CA pump swill on a DTS engine dyno in Ontario,CA The last one was more of a all out street terror, it made 535 HP with a single 850 CFM Holley on a Eddy RPM dual plane intake I haven't built and dyno tested a stock stroke 440 motor since 2002 or so Stroke it with big heads and hold on to your seat belt
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/16/20 11:27 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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