Honestly, cam selection toughest part

Hey all. I'm sure you have seen this question a thousand times, but here's another. I'm putting as much info below as possible to help make the best decision.

1970 Plymouth Satellite 2 door
3.55 posi
Street driven only, no racing, weekend cruiser
Need vacuum for power brakes
Need reliability and drive ability
1977 440 out of a New Yorker being rebuilt, along with the 1977 727 tranny.
Block bored .030', decked, align bored, and of course crack checked and pressure tested(all good)
452 Heads resurfaced, crack tested and pressure tested(all good)
Still deciding on pocket porting, but right now heads stock
Original crank ground and reusing
SCAT H-Beam rods
KB pistons
Comp ratio according to shop will be 9.4-9.5/1
1970 cast intake
1970 Carter AVS 750 carb
Doug's headers
2.5" dual exhaust with Flowmaster 40 Series
Will be running 91 octane

The machine shop has been great to deal with, and I am in no way questioning them. I value their opinion but as this is my first build, I always like other opinions from those with far more experience than I. The next decision will be on camshaft. Lets assume the heads stay stock. Lets assume the intake gets upgraded at some point, but not for a year or two. I will list the cams being suggested by various people so far. I would appreciate any and all opinions. Just to be clear, the above parts have been already purchased, so those won't be changed or swapped out.

Mopar Performance Cam P4452783

Lunati 10230702

CompCams XE268H

Crower 271

Summit 6401

Hughes SEH2832BL

Melling MTD-2

I've personally spoken to all these manufacturers, and given them the exact information above, and these are their recommendations. Obviously I'd like to have a pretty aggressive idle, but not at the expense of drive-ability or reliability. So please, let me know your opinions. A 2400 Stall converter is also a possibility to upgrade along with whatever the tranny re-builder suggests. Low end and mid range torque or priorities over pure HP. Estimates for this motor are in the 325-350hp range right now, depending on camshaft i guess. Thank you for your suggestions.

Easier to comment if you posted the cam data rather than just the part numbers:
Nominal duration
.050" duration
LSA
Installed CL

Obviously I'd like to have a pretty aggressive idle, but not at the expense of drive-ability
Those are opposites, especially with a low stall converter.

Buy your custom Cam from Dwayne Porter!!!

He really knows what is best for Mopars.

My 2 cents, Mark

I agree on contacting Dwayne. The cam/ converter combo is obviously critical here. I would ask for a converter that would act like a converter with the same stall charactoristics as a 1970 Hemi 10 3/4 inch stock unit. Have it built to handle the torque of the 440, which shouldn't be very expensive. At most those converters might stall 2800? But the street manners will be like a (almost) stock converter. With that type of converter, you will need a conservative cam that will run smoothly at 1800 to 2000 rpm and probably peak about 5500 at most, maybe 5200. The most fun is just driving around in a responsive combo, very similar to a stocker. The more radical a combo gets, the less fun it is to cruise around in IMHO

Just a few things to consider.. cams are sized according to their duration... not lift.. something in the 235° @.050" range would be a
Good starting point for what you're looking for. Just remember as said before the most critical relationship here is between cam and converter. These two have to play well together or the combo will respond poorly. Also remember LSA "lobe separation angle" will have a large impact on idle quality i.e. vacuum signal for power brakes. A "tighter" LSA [ 108° ] range will have more aggressive characteristics at idle.. (less vacuum) a "wider" LSA [ 112° ] range
will have a much smoother idle (more vacuum) better for power brakes. So as with all component selections when building a performance engine there are trade offs... it just depends on where your priorities lie...driveability vs. Max power.If it's never gonna be raced look for something that will work well
from a durability standpoint also... (no crazy aggressive ramp rates). Just remember.. if you stick a cam in it and hate it, it can be changed. It might take a few tries to nail down exactly what you want. And what you want in a performance camshaft may change in 5 years ? Who knows ? Most importantly have fun.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-4452783 - Mopar purpleshaft

https://www.crower.com/camshafts/mopar-350-440-b-compu-pro-hydraulic-cam-271-hdp.html - Crower

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-10230702/ - Lunati

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-k23-223-4/make/dodge - Comp Cams

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-6401 - Summit cam

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...amp;level1=Q2Ftc2hhZnQ=&partid=30255 - Hughes

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-mtd-2/ - Melling


I thought to keep it shorter, I'd supply the links. Sorry, didnt think to do that before.

Headers or ex manifolds?

Quench dome pistons and proper quench distance set or not?

Doug's headers, with 2" primaries and 3.5" collectors. Regarding the quench question, I don't have the answer. I assume the machine shop has that information, and I'll try to get it.

Have you bought those headers yet? They're great quality, but a poor match for a stock intake and mild hydraulic cam. Somthing with a 1 3/4" primary or smaller would be a better match.

i have a 69 r/t with a very similar engine build (kb184 pistons, stock intake and carb, stock exhaust, mopar 272/.455 cam) to what your putting together. I would use the summit 6401 or the crower 271 cams and forget about the rest. if headers are what you want then buy the smallest tube. I would consider cast manifolds but small headers are o.k. a good fuel pump like the carter 6903 is a must. my car has power brakes and believe it or not I've had a difficult time getting enough vacuum to operate them with near stock cams; so avoid the cute idle thing. pocket porting is worth while and I like the ferrea 2.08/1.74 valves in those stock heads.

Do you want the best power or the best manners when it comes to WOT driving
If power go big, if nice sound and okay performance go little on everything, carb, cam and exhaust
As far as the mufflers your choosing I wouldn't use them Flow stoppers Look for a straight through flow design mufler and mount them behind the rear end so the exhaust tips are even with or stick out a little behind the rear bumper.
Have you consider a three inch exhaust system? If not I would Summit offers them and they work great on both A and B bodies cars

Yes, the headers are sitting in my basement. It was what was recommended for now, and going forward looking at not only head work, but the upgrade to an aftermarket intake. I know it sounds easy to just grab an aluminum intake right now, but if i don't curb spending at least for now this project is going to get a little out of control.

The exhaust is already in the car, sitting behind the 318. It will just get cut back from the manifolds to the header connection when the engine is in the car. It's really about manners and driveability, and vacuum for PB. The tricky part with cams seems to be having a cam that you can eventually grow in to with upgrades, like intake, head work, etc. Just trying to make the best choice. I actually like the sound of the exhaust with the 318, so we will see with the mild 440. Keep in mind, the engine builder/machine shop has said HP with this set up is going to be in the 325-350 range. Pretty mild. Thank you for your input. Much appreciated.

If you want an aggressive idle I don't think any of those cams are going to give it to you in a 440.

Well, from what i have been learning, a thumping idle, and a car with good street manners for weekend cruising may not go hand in hand. The top priority is driveability and reliability, so I guess the idle not so important actually. Hey, I'm learning still. First Mopar. First restore and engine build. As far as off the shelf cams, It seems like the Crower 271 or the Lunati 702 or 703 are popular.

hi

look at crane 272 max power .

it will do every thing you you have listed !

i have power brakes app 16 in vac at idle !

12.9 at 107 with 3.55 in 3700 lb car drive any where !

I run the Lunati 703 (used to be the 60303...494/513) in a 30 over 440. The 702 is pretty mild.

W/r/t I assume the machine shop has that information
Your heads have a cast chamber recess which is not filled by dome pop-up, but should be.
The common practice is mill all 8 recessed surfaces to the same depth (use the lightest cut that will do this), use domed pistons (KB makes one) and fit the P-H clearance to .035-.040" @ TDC.
If zero or negative deck clearance is used (similar to OEM pistons) the engine will be more knock sensitive and (may) require a slower or conservative spark curve.
If you go down to a 10" converter you can live with a bigger cam like 240° @ .050" (and great idle) but lose some mileage. You shouldn't go too high on stall, or you will have some converter slip at low cruising speed due to your axle ratio - your best cruising RPM will be above your stall speed.

I would recommend something less than 230 dur @0.050".

Here is why:
1) you want good vacum for PB
2) you want a bit of a lumpy idle, but not overdo it

I used to run this Crower Compu-Pro 282HDP in a SB 360 motor. With 3.55 gearing and 9.5:1 CR it was a blast, loved the street manners, no complaints. The car still pulled pretty good vacum, I think about 12-14" if I remember (it was a good 20 yrs ago).

I stepped up to a Hughes Engines HE3844AL (238/244 @0.050" on 108LSA) on my last build. That cam really needed a 4k converter in a heavy car like mine. It is pretty rumpy alright, but only pulls 7" of vacum, the throttle response suffers. Now, the car overall combo is very different than when the Crower was in. I am running a 4.10 gear now for one and 10.5:1 CR.

So while I throughly enjoy my current setup, given what you stated as your goals and focus I would recommend you watch the duration @0.050".

Your going to have to try pretty hard to only make 325 HP with any 440 motor 9.5 to 1 compression with decent stock type heads dual plane intake and 750 CFM carb. Been there done that
If you do decide to dyno test it let us know your results and what brand engine dyno
All the pump gas iron head street and strip motors I've built,35+, have all made at least 400 HP on CA pump swill on a DTS engine dyno in Ontario,CA
The last one was more of a all out street terror, it made 535 HP with a single 850 CFM Holley on a Eddy RPM dual plane intake
I haven't built and dyno tested a stock stroke 440 motor since 2002 or so
Stroke it with big heads and hold on to your seat belt

I have that 282 HDP sitting on the shelf. I have the smaller 271 HDP in a similar combo 360 that ran a 12.8 @ 105.5 mph. Did you ever run that combo at the track?

The 271 would be too small in a 440 with what the OP was looking for in my view.

Hysteric

I've used the comp xe 268s and the xe274s and I think they work great and tune easily.

I decided to go with the Comp Cams nostalgia plus for my 360. 239/243 I think at .050 on a 108 LSA. Maybe a little more radical than I need right now but the truck is a stick with 4.10 gears. Should the vacuum become a problem there is always electric vacuum pumps but eventually I'll convert it to a hydroboost. Don't want to lose the brakes coming down a mountain.

So if you really want a cam with the lopey idle characteristics there are ways to do it but you will need a looser converter.

Nope...never had it to the track in that combo...but with the HE3844AL it's an embarrasing 13.13 @105...I suspect traction issues as the car is not setup at all to do drag racing (no weight xfer, all stiff suspension, sway bars, very little front-end uplift on launch).

Put it this way, the stroker 408 W2 I am building right now is getting a 112LSA cam, hydraulic roller that's just a step hotter 240/244 @0.050. My Crower was a 112 LSA, and in this ride it was an extremely fitting setup...so I'm jumping the 108 LSA for a 112 LSA hoping to come off the line a little flatter and not so peaky as the current 108 LSA is.

If your interested in making less bottom end power, below 3000 RPM widen the LSA, if you want more bottom end tighten them up
If your using stock type heads think between 108 to 105 LSA installed 3 to 6 degrees advanced on the intake lobes
Real tire spinning power

I also ran the 294FDP solid which is 243/245 @ 50, 112 and the car ran 12.66 @ 107.

Why the narrow LSA on stock type heads? I thought the logic was wider LSA's on stock type heads to increase the top end because of the limited airflow.

Hysteric

The reason I say to use a tight LSA on stock type heads is from helping several SB NHRA stock record holders and doing cam dyno testing on several of those type motors, the 105 LSA cams made more HP and torque with the exact same lobes than the cam with 107 LSA did We tested both cams from 2 degrees retarded in 2 degree increments advancing them up to 6 degrees advanced Both cams like the ILC around 4 degrees advanced
Any cam ground on a wider LSA with those same legal lobes wouldn't fall out of a tree with a elephant tugging on it with a rope AKA those stock heads stop flowing decently a little under .500 lift and that is what NHRA limits the lift to ( a little less actually)

What were the cam specs duration wise and what rpm are we talking here?

Stocker cams are limited to .430 lift but any duration is allowed and they typically have a LOT of duration.