ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
#2554934
09/26/18 10:30 AM
09/26/18 10:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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Hello,
Years ago I built a 440 Dart Sport with my students. Sold it too quickly. I decided to do it again, bought a bunch of stuff and then changed my mind. Tried to sell it.
I have a lot of low-end Mopar stuff now and can't give it away. Thinking of using it. Here is what I have on hand.
67 Valiant, cut for fender wells. Decent body lacking interior etc. $800 car more or less. Have mounts for 440. Think "patina'd" cruiser. Likely going to mini-tub it etc.
Engine is a 440 from 76, NIB single bolt timing set. Holley SD Intake. 750 Holley that is new. Good quality electric pump and reg. Engine is stock, willing to cam it, port heads etc. Not wanting to rebuild, good re-ring candidate.
727. Access to a good quality 3500 RPM stall if I want it.
Spring relocation kit.
8.75 or 8.8 I can narrow myself. 8.8 has 3.73 gears.
Fenderwell headers that are 1.875, not Hookers. Willing to run 3" or whatever exhaust.
If you were on a budget, and just wanted to go fast but still be streetable what do you think I can run for the ET?
Cam recommendations? This would be a once a week to work car, and a trip down the strip.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2554950
09/26/18 11:15 AM
09/26/18 11:15 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,710 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,710
Wichita
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280° advertised duration and.480-ish lift would be my recommendation for a cam. Sounds like the car is pretty light, so mid twelves should pretty easy.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555168
09/26/18 07:46 PM
09/26/18 07:46 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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I did this build in 1983, no money, 67 Valiant, 440, Hemi cam, Hooker fenderwells, mild converter, 4.10s in a 8 3/4, I don't know how fast it was because it never got to the track but that was a fun car!!!
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555186
09/26/18 08:30 PM
09/26/18 08:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,024 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 10,024
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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For the heads, decent flow can be had by going to 2.14 intake and 1.81 exhaust valves, and a bowl port. If you are willing to consider some cast replacement pistons ,if available same weight as stock but with more compression, that would really help. I am not sure what is available, just suggesting what i would check on to see if i could get by with just an overbore and rings to get compression up to a decent level.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2555280
09/26/18 11:08 PM
09/26/18 11:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
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Southern Oregon
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Thank you for the help! I am quite able to make things etc. so we are going to cut weight etc. by removing some extras and that kinda thing. Of course by the time you tie the frame etc. you're really not saving much weight.
I want super simple and EZ to fix kinda car that is fun, and that can be used and worked on without concern. Really would like 12's in any weather condition.
Really going to have to keep the engine simple with springs, home porting and a cam etc. I know there is so much left on the table, but it is just going to have to be more simple for right now.
More likely than not, I would buy some aluminum heads next year and up the compression and start that, but for now this will need to work.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555339
09/27/18 12:55 AM
09/27/18 12:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,024 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,024
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Some years ago i did someback yard butchery on a low compression 340 for my son when neither of us had 2 cents to spend. I cleaned up the bowls with a die grinder, then back cut the stock valves by chucking them in a drill press and hitting them carefully with an angle grinder. We added headers, a 268h cam, and a TQ carb and that 340 performed very well!
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555466
09/27/18 11:29 AM
09/27/18 11:29 AM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570 UK
rb446
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
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Cool build, read it many times before, if you could follow that and get 400hp on track, thats enough with a good hook to run high 11's with exhaust in a...3200lb? all in car,..and your 3.73 gears with say 28" tyres would have you trapping@around 5300>5400rpm.. about right.
1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990 1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555468
09/27/18 11:31 AM
09/27/18 11:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
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Southern Oregon
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One more question.
The convertor I have access to is a 10" Dynamic 3500 RPM rated convertor.
More convertor than I need most likely!
For the combo mentioned above, approximately what ET loss will likely occur with a stock convertor vs. the Dynamic?
It's from a buddy and pretty inexpensive so I will likely run it.
Cam specs are going to be 230 at .050 neighborhood.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555478
09/27/18 11:47 AM
09/27/18 11:47 AM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570 UK
rb446
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
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The smallest converter I ever ran was a 3500 in my 340 with a 284/484 purple and that worked really well, so not the best on that. I would however hazard a guess of at least .3>.5 loss with a stock verter and a .230@.50 cam. Sure others will have a better idea with more experience than me.
1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990 1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: rb446]
#2555487
09/27/18 12:02 PM
09/27/18 12:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 34,965 S.E. South Dakota !
bigdad
Still Posting A Lot
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Still Posting A Lot
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 34,965
S.E. South Dakota !
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Friend has a 73 Duster at our local track, track champ like 9-10 times
Low buck car , it does not have one trick part on it
451 , ported by himself 906 heads .. 727 , Dana
runs 10.70's in bad air
10.50's in good air
He has 1000's of runs on it , never lays a wrench on it
The lips of fools bring them strife, and their mouths invite a beating.Proverbs 18:6
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555503
09/27/18 12:20 PM
09/27/18 12:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
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OP
super stock
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Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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This is as much a process project as anything. My current students are awesome and enthusiastic, but have almost zero experience with a wrench. I am making up my mind on which car to do here in about a month.
I have a newer performance car and it is a lot of fun, but I'd like to go faster for sure.
For those of us older types, we grew up with N50's sticking out the back and airshocks (a little before my time but....) etc.
To a modern teenager, that stuff is incomprehensible. I want them to learn some basics, have fun and above all learn something valuable.
Many on here are older, and there is a strong shortage of young people still doing this stuff.
Lots of enthusiasm, now we just need to find the right target to aim at.
Last edited by toyotajeep; 09/27/18 12:22 PM.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555630
09/27/18 06:01 PM
09/27/18 06:01 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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If you can you should build the lightest car you can.. there is 2 factors you will always be playing with.. HP and WEIGHT.. your not starting with a bunch of HP so you want to make the car as light as possible.. the easiest way is find the lightest car you can.. then take the weight out of it.. push thoughs 2 factors on the students and they they will get the big picture ![wave wave](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/wave.gif)
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: cudadoug]
#2555692
09/27/18 09:03 PM
09/27/18 09:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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Wow! You didn't port and mill the heads? That is alot of ET for not much work all things considered. You had substantially more compression than I will for sure.
I hear you on the weight. I am going to trim where I can and remove things like the back seat, battery in trunk etc. Typical stuff.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555696
09/27/18 09:16 PM
09/27/18 09:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213
New York
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240 @ .050", 108 LSA installed 104
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2555897
09/28/18 10:49 AM
09/28/18 10:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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Sounds like specs similar to the .484 cam-ish.
Naturally I want it to sound like a hot rod, but I am far more concerned with the performance of it. .
It will be a manual car for ps and pb so idle isn't a concern. Performance is a much bigger issue!
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555950
09/28/18 12:52 PM
09/28/18 12:52 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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If you pull the trigger on this and start a build thread with your students, I have a few parts to send your way. I know I have a full set of ss mopar 1.81/2.14 valves with keepers and retainers,and I might have a torquer intake, I know I have a old set of m/t valve covers. Sounds like a great way to get today's young people involved in the sport.
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: Iowan]
#2555956
09/28/18 01:16 PM
09/28/18 01:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,203 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,203
PA.
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I donated some parts to a school project for the kids before and shipped them on my dime. It too was never finished unless this was the same project. Bummer because I think the kids need projects like this more today than ever
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2555997
09/28/18 02:36 PM
09/28/18 02:36 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Back when I was in high school.. myself and 3 other class mates built up a 327ci fuel injected (mech injection) VW.. the engine was up front.. that thing ended up being crazey quick.. (for the time) ..the teacher made us tear it apart.. he said thatit would kill one of us.. it was a bittch to control.. GM gave us like 5 engines to work with.. was a fun time ![wave wave](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/wave.gif)
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556019
09/28/18 03:53 PM
09/28/18 03:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245 Between a rock & a hard place
cudadoug
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master
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Between a rock & a hard place
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Wow! You didn't port and mill the heads? That is alot of ET for not much work all things considered. You had substantially more compression than I will for sure.
I hear you on the weight. I am going to trim where I can and remove things like the back seat, battery in trunk etc. Typical stuff. If you're asking me, no didn't port the heads but they were milled flat to 79.5 cc's. Just stock junk, but well machined and carefully assembled. There's alot of power in the old saying "balanced and blueprinted". That said, low CR "smog" 440's can make 11 second power in an A-body too. The right cam/intake and the RIGHT converter/gear and you'd be surprised!
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556114
09/28/18 10:16 PM
09/28/18 10:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696 jersey
Spaceman Spiff
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master
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jersey
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'70 440 from a Chrysler wagon. 36,000 miles. took it apart, ball honed, ( no ridge) new bearings and rings, put it back together. took the heads apart, had them milled, just to make sure they were true. no porting per say, but did clean up the casting flash. lunati bracket master cam, torker 2 intake 850 double pumper. block huggers, and 3 inch exhaust, with ultraflows( were called race magnums then) 4.56 gears. 12.21@112 in a 3,900lb '58 Plymouth. This was 1998, my buddy that put it together was 18.
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556163
09/29/18 02:09 AM
09/29/18 02:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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I didn't receive any help from here that I can recall other than advice which was very handy. We did finish the first car and I drove it around for a little while. Three times in 100 miles I was doing what you do with a muscle car and nearly was caught in the act. Three times. So....I decided to trade it off on a whim. A decision I regretted deeply ever since. It was a rust-free car and fairly quick for what it was. Nice looking and decent driving. It was rebuilt into a Demon clone and went to the midwest I just found out.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556194
09/29/18 09:06 AM
09/29/18 09:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,893 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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master
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Posts: 9,893
Weddington, N.C.
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Years ago (like 28) I bought a 73 Duster with a stock 69 newport 440 in it and only a 484 purple shaft. It had very restrictive cut down log manifolds and a stock converter and a 3.23 Sure grip. With just a little carb and ignition tuning it ran consistent 8.30's in the 1/8th...which I think would be about low 13's in the 1/4. I remember fitting a Magnum manifold to the passenger side (nothing I could do on the driver's side) and just that one change was worth almost 2/10ths....
I also learned that 440 performer (this was long before the RPM) manifold was a completely worthless POS, the old CH-4b (I think thats what it was) was much better as was the Weiand Action plus.
I eventually put in a 11:1 451 stroker 400 with home ported 452's and the Bagshaw "pro Parts" headers and a 10" fairbanks and 3.91's and got it into the 6.90's (about 10.90 in the 1/4),....but to be honest it was a lot more fun with just the warmed over near stock 440 and quiet mufflers.
The earlier 67-69 440' shortblocks had much better compression. if nothing else swap the slugs with the HU-Cast KB's to improve the static CR. Also you can cut down the heavy 250+ gram pressed piston pins 1/2" and save about 50 grams per hole...you'll still have plenty of piston support but you'll also need to re-balance.
If I knew then what I know now I would have got a 4.15 MP crank and punched the motor .022 (4.342" = factory 400 bore) over and just threw in a set of stock 400 pistons on the factory LY rods and had a higher compression 493....with a lighter bobweight than the stock 440. apparently, Mopar had this little low buck secret in mind when they settled on the 4.15" stroke.....Hmmm, too bad they didn't bother to tell anyone...back then they might have sold a lot more of them. You could easily buy plenty of low mileage 400's out of the junkyard for way less than a set of new pistons.
Last edited by Streetwize; 09/29/18 09:24 AM.
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556223
09/29/18 11:32 AM
09/29/18 11:32 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,260 Md.
carnut68
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master
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Posts: 3,260
Md.
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Here's an example. My 68 cuda fastback. 446 F2266 pistons .075 in the hole 509 cam home ported 906's Team G intake 850 DP TA 3800 391's TTI chassis headers. 11.91 @111. There was more in it. Build what you have the kids will have a blast whenever you get it to the track. Sounds like guys on here are willing to donate to the cause. I have a set of standard main bearings nib I will send if needed.
America First!
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556256
09/29/18 01:31 PM
09/29/18 01:31 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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I have a team G for 440 that is junk, never been touched and has the worst air fuel delivery I've ever seen! An M1 was 75 hp better on the dyno.
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556259
09/29/18 01:34 PM
09/29/18 01:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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If I do this, the goal is to just get the car going and operational. It takes a lot of effort to do this as we all know. That and when I was "done" with Mopars I literally got rid of every little ignition box on the shelves etc. that I had so I could focus on my other stuff. Basically after I traded the last 440 Dart off I was upset with myself, gas was $4.50 and I just decided that I wouldn't be doing this again. Naturally finances, economy etc. all changed and I now I wish I'd kept it.
A guy I know says it is best to "pick your junk and stick with it". I was doing that well, and I have now done that well with other brands, mainly Fords. Just take it off the shelf for extra parts. When I buy from rock auto I usually get 2-3 of the cheaper parts so I can shop from my own shelves.
I figure I have until late October to make up my mind on what to build. The reason I am taking awhile and researching it is we stared a "low-dollar crawler" build out of a vintage Bronco that was rough. Well, the kids did too good of job and next thing you know it turned into a budget resto. I couldn't tell a student who was doing a great job to do it poorly. Needless to say this has been awesome; best project we have built. It also cost far more than I had planned and took two years and I hope to have it on the road by Thanksgiving.
So after this fun project, I really want to make an educated decision about what the students need to learn, and what I can do on my end. Modern teaching is not like it was when most of us were in school. So I need to take on something that I can accomplish, most likely by the end of the year this school year. Even if that means it is a low 13 second car for round one.
We are currently learning basic skills by taking a car apart and going through some lawn mower engines and a Ford V6. It is quite fun watching them. They are a tenacious bunch. Learning about tools, figuring out how cars work. They really like wrenches in their hands, more than many classes. One of my best auto classes for sure. It is enlivening to watch them go for it. They are moving right along and we will have the car dismantled in about a week.
Back to big block A bodies. It sounds like if I can't pull high 12's or so I am doing something really wrong or can't hook. I know I am leaving a lot on the table with my 7:1 compression, but if I am going to go into it, I would rather do it all at once on the bottom end, heads I'd work on now. The distance that I need to drive means I really won't be running any 500CID engines with massive roller cams etc. Probably always be something fast but still very steetable.
Nice to chat. Time to get going for the day.
Last edited by toyotajeep; 09/29/18 01:37 PM. Reason: spelling
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556350
09/29/18 07:00 PM
09/29/18 07:00 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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My first street strip 440 was a trw low compression piston kit from PAW, remember them? The build was totally bucks down and I bartered the machine work. The balance and blueprint included decking the block so the pistons were 90 down the hole. The 452 heads were cut to -80cc and cut on intake side also, the valve cover rails are very thin. The result was 9.5 to 1 cr 2.14 / 1.81 valves and my pocket porting and port matching. I recently resembled it with a mopar 557 cam I had an it made 520 hp and 545 torque. This combination has so much stock parts it it you could change the cam and springs and put it in a motorhome. If you could locate a good set of used pistons, standard or 30 over it would open up more power and reliability with forged pistons an a compression ratio.
For a few dollars more
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2557567
10/02/18 11:56 AM
10/02/18 11:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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All this information helps a lot. It looks like I may have found a better car to begin with. Not better as in faster, but better as in condition and that will fit the goals of the learning experience. More room to work due to size, and the car is in better shape, I have a few 8.75 3rd members on hand etc. so things will likely go a bit smoother and faster compared to narrowing an 8.8 etc.
It is a 60's B body. My guess is I am going to gain a solid 500 LBS. so that may make my 12 second goal more elusive.
But I think it is still doable. I have a modern GTO and I would like to be faster than that which I know I can be. It is a hoot to drive, but it is shaped like an egg.....
Last edited by toyotajeep; 10/02/18 11:57 AM.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2568756
10/24/18 10:32 AM
10/24/18 10:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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I ended up not doing the 60's B body. Good project for a little later. I have all this big block A body stuff laying around that isn't going to sell unless I literally give it away. So I am back to plan A with the 67 Valiant.
I bought a PTC 9.5" 4200 RPM stall gently used. We are narrowing the 8.8 right now and ordered longer studs etc. and starting to investigate the 440 more closely.
Kids are happy. Life is good.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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