ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?

Hello,

Years ago I built a 440 Dart Sport with my students. Sold it too quickly. I decided to do it again, bought a bunch of stuff and then changed my mind. Tried to sell it.

I have a lot of low-end Mopar stuff now and can't give it away. Thinking of using it. Here is what I have on hand.

67 Valiant, cut for fender wells. Decent body lacking interior etc. $800 car more or less. Have mounts for 440. Think "patina'd" cruiser. Likely going to mini-tub it etc.

Engine is a 440 from 76, NIB single bolt timing set. Holley SD Intake. 750 Holley that is new. Good quality electric pump and reg. Engine is stock, willing to cam it, port heads etc. Not wanting to rebuild, good re-ring candidate.

727. Access to a good quality 3500 RPM stall if I want it.

Spring relocation kit.

8.75 or 8.8 I can narrow myself. 8.8 has 3.73 gears.

Fenderwell headers that are 1.875, not Hookers. Willing to run 3" or whatever exhaust.

If you were on a budget, and just wanted to go fast but still be streetable what do you think I can run for the ET?

Cam recommendations? This would be a once a week to work car, and a trip down the strip.

280° advertised duration and.480-ish lift would be my recommendation for a cam. Sounds like the car is pretty light, so mid twelves should pretty easy.

It depends on which track and how much traction you end up with, doesn't it
AKA aside, with less than 8.0 to 1 compression ratio and a good straight through exhaust system it should run mid to high 12s at Woodburn, better than that at Woodburn, Portland and probably Redding, depending on the cam and RPM limits

Years ago I had a 71 challenger ran a reringed low compression 440 77 block Mopar 284-484 Hyd cam, cleaned up 452 heads Holley street dominator, 750 vac Holley. Hooker 1 7/8 headers 3500 stall 3.90 gears 9x28 slicks. Ran consistent 12.20s I did taste 11.90s at 115 mph. It was a simple drum brake car that ran on regular in 1996.

I ran a 70 cuda with 73 440 out of a motor home. Low compression. Used the Mopar 474/474 cam. Holley 750 and headers. 3550lbs.
Ran 13.1.

I think you would get into the 12's easy. Maybe mid 12's if you get it running real good.

I did this build in 1983, no money, 67 Valiant, 440, Hemi cam, Hooker fenderwells, mild converter, 4.10s in a 8 3/4, I don't know how fast it was because it never got to the track but that was a fun car!!!

For the heads, decent flow can be had by going to 2.14 intake and 1.81 exhaust valves, and a bowl port. If you are willing to consider some cast replacement pistons ,if available same weight as stock but with more compression, that would really help. I am not sure what is available, just suggesting what i would check on to see if i could get by with just an overbore and rings to get compression up to a decent level.

Thank you for the help! I am quite able to make things etc. so we are going to cut weight etc. by removing some extras and that kinda thing. Of course by the time you tie the frame etc. you're really not saving much weight.

I want super simple and EZ to fix kinda car that is fun, and that can be used and worked on without concern. Really would like 12's in any weather condition.

Really going to have to keep the engine simple with springs, home porting and a cam etc. I know there is so much left on the table, but it is just going to have to be more simple for right now.

More likely than not, I would buy some aluminum heads next year and up the compression and start that, but for now this will need to work.

https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/dyno-testing-a-stock-1972-440.249866/

Good read for a smog 440 build

Some years ago i did someback yard butchery on a low compression 340 for my son when neither of us had 2 cents to spend. I cleaned up the bowls with a die grinder, then back cut the stock valves by chucking them in a drill press and hitting them carefully with an angle grinder. We added headers, a 268h cam, and a TQ carb and that 340 performed very well!

THIS was the article I was thinking about when I first read this post...good post

Cool build, read it many times before, if you could follow that and get 400hp on track, thats enough with a good hook to run high 11's with exhaust in a...3200lb? all in car,..and your 3.73 gears with say 28" tyres would have you trapping@around 5300>5400rpm.. about right.

One more question.

The convertor I have access to is a 10" Dynamic 3500 RPM rated convertor.

More convertor than I need most likely!

For the combo mentioned above, approximately what ET loss will likely occur with a stock convertor vs. the Dynamic?

It's from a buddy and pretty inexpensive so I will likely run it.

Cam specs are going to be 230 at .050 neighborhood.

The smallest converter I ever ran was a 3500 in my 340 with a 284/484 purple and that worked really well, so not the best on that. I would however hazard a guess of at least .3>.5 loss with a stock verter and a .230@.50 cam. Sure others will have a better idea with more experience than me.

Friend has a 73 Duster at our local track, track champ like 9-10 times

Low buck car , it does not have one trick part on it

451 , ported by himself 906 heads .. 727 , Dana

runs 10.70's in bad air

10.50's in good air

He has 1000's of runs on it , never lays a wrench on it

This is as much a process project as anything. My current students are awesome and enthusiastic, but have almost zero experience with a wrench. I am making up my mind on which car to do here in about a month.

I have a newer performance car and it is a lot of fun, but I'd like to go faster for sure.

For those of us older types, we grew up with N50's sticking out the back and airshocks (a little before my time but....) etc.

To a modern teenager, that stuff is incomprehensible. I want them to learn some basics, have fun and above all learn something valuable.

Many on here are older, and there is a strong shortage of young people still doing this stuff.

Lots of enthusiasm, now we just need to find the right target to aim at.

If you can you should build the lightest car
you can.. there is 2 factors you will always
be playing with.. HP and WEIGHT.. your not
starting with a bunch of HP so you want to make
the car as light as possible.. the easiest way
is find the lightest car you can.. then take the
weight out of it.. push thoughs 2 factors on the
students and they they will get the big picture

69 Dart
Frames tied
6 point bar
Glass bumpers and hood, all else OE
9x28 slick
Short pipes w/junk muffs
3.91 SG

STOCK 68 440 shortblock
MP .484 cam
OLD Edelbrock Torker
OLD 750 DP
Pro parts 2" headers

MVB 727 and 11" OE converter

11.64/116 best
11.80's/114 heat of summer

91 octane pump gas.

Wow! You didn't port and mill the heads? That is alot of ET for not much work all things considered. You had substantially more compression than I will for sure.

I hear you on the weight. I am going to trim where I can and remove things like the back seat, battery in trunk etc. Typical stuff.

240 @ .050", 108 LSA installed 104

Sounds like specs similar to the .484 cam-ish.

Naturally I want it to sound like a hot rod, but I am far more concerned with the performance of it. .

It will be a manual car for ps and pb so idle isn't a concern. Performance is a much bigger issue!

If you pull the trigger on this and start a build thread with your students, I have a few parts to send your way. I know I have a full set of ss mopar 1.81/2.14 valves with keepers and retainers,and I might have a torquer intake, I know I have a old set of m/t valve covers.
Sounds like a great way to get today's young people involved in the sport.

I donated some parts to a school project for the kids before and shipped them on my dime. It too was never finished unless this was the same project. Bummer because I think the kids need projects like this more today than ever

Back when I was in high school.. myself and 3
other class mates built up a 327ci fuel injected
(mech injection) VW.. the engine was up front..
that thing ended up being crazey quick.. (for
the time) ..the teacher made us tear it apart..
he said thatit would kill one of us.. it was a
bittch to control.. GM gave us like 5 engines to
work with.. was a fun time

If you're asking me, no didn't port the heads but they were milled flat to 79.5 cc's. Just stock junk, but well machined and carefully assembled. There's alot of power in the old saying "balanced and blueprinted".

That said, low CR "smog" 440's can make 11 second power in an A-body too. The right cam/intake and the RIGHT converter/gear and you'd be surprised!

'70 440 from a Chrysler wagon. 36,000 miles. took it apart, ball honed, ( no ridge) new bearings and rings, put it back together. took the heads apart, had them milled, just to make sure they were true. no porting per say, but did clean up the casting flash. lunati bracket master cam, torker 2 intake 850 double pumper. block huggers, and 3 inch exhaust, with ultraflows( were called race magnums then) 4.56 gears. 12.21@112 in a 3,900lb '58 Plymouth. This was 1998, my buddy that put it together was 18.

I didn't receive any help from here that I can recall other than advice which was very handy. We did finish the first car and I drove it around for a little while. Three times in 100 miles I was doing what you do with a muscle car and nearly was caught in the act. Three times. So....I decided to trade it off on a whim. A decision I regretted deeply ever since. It was a rust-free car and fairly quick for what it was. Nice looking and decent driving. It was rebuilt into a Demon clone and went to the midwest I just found out.

Years ago (like 28) I bought a 73 Duster with a stock 69 newport 440 in it and only a 484 purple shaft. It had very restrictive cut down log manifolds and a stock converter and a 3.23 Sure grip. With just a little carb and ignition tuning it ran consistent 8.30's in the 1/8th...which I think would be about low 13's in the 1/4. I remember fitting a Magnum manifold to the passenger side (nothing I could do on the driver's side) and just that one change was worth almost 2/10ths....

I also learned that 440 performer (this was long before the RPM) manifold was a completely worthless POS, the old CH-4b (I think thats what it was) was much better as was the Weiand Action plus.

I eventually put in a 11:1 451 stroker 400 with home ported 452's and the Bagshaw "pro Parts" headers and a 10" fairbanks and 3.91's and got it into the 6.90's (about 10.90 in the 1/4),....but to be honest it was a lot more fun with just the warmed over near stock 440 and quiet mufflers.

The earlier 67-69 440' shortblocks had much better compression. if nothing else swap the slugs with the HU-Cast KB's to improve the static CR. Also you can cut down the heavy 250+ gram pressed piston pins 1/2" and save about 50 grams per hole...you'll still have plenty of piston support but you'll also need to re-balance.

If I knew then what I know now I would have got a 4.15 MP crank and punched the motor .022 (4.342" = factory 400 bore) over and just threw in a set of stock 400 pistons on the factory LY rods and had a higher compression 493....with a lighter bobweight than the stock 440. apparently, Mopar had this little low buck secret in mind when they settled on the 4.15" stroke.....Hmmm, too bad they didn't bother to tell anyone...back then they might have sold a lot more of them. You could easily buy plenty of low mileage 400's out of the junkyard for way less than a set of new pistons.

Here's an example. My 68 cuda fastback. 446 F2266 pistons .075 in the hole 509 cam home ported 906's Team G intake 850 DP TA 3800 391's TTI chassis headers. 11.91 @111. There was more in it. Build what you have the kids will have a blast whenever you get it to the track. Sounds like guys on here are willing to donate to the cause. I have a set of standard main bearings nib I will send if needed.

I have a team G for 440 that is junk, never been touched and has the worst air fuel delivery I've ever seen!
An M1 was 75 hp better on the dyno.

If I do this, the goal is to just get the car going and operational. It takes a lot of effort to do this as we all know. That and when I was "done" with Mopars I literally got rid of every little ignition box on the shelves etc. that I had so I could focus on my other stuff. Basically after I traded the last 440 Dart off I was upset with myself, gas was $4.50 and I just decided that I wouldn't be doing this again. Naturally finances, economy etc. all changed and I now I wish I'd kept it.

A guy I know says it is best to "pick your junk and stick with it". I was doing that well, and I have now done that well with other brands, mainly Fords. Just take it off the shelf for extra parts. When I buy from rock auto I usually get 2-3 of the cheaper parts so I can shop from my own shelves.

I figure I have until late October to make up my mind on what to build. The reason I am taking awhile and researching it is we stared a "low-dollar crawler" build out of a vintage Bronco that was rough. Well, the kids did too good of job and next thing you know it turned into a budget resto. I couldn't tell a student who was doing a great job to do it poorly. Needless to say this has been awesome; best project we have built. It also cost far more than I had planned and took two years and I hope to have it on the road by Thanksgiving.

So after this fun project, I really want to make an educated decision about what the students need to learn, and what I can do on my end. Modern teaching is not like it was when most of us were in school. So I need to take on something that I can accomplish, most likely by the end of the year this school year. Even if that means it is a low 13 second car for round one.

We are currently learning basic skills by taking a car apart and going through some lawn mower engines and a Ford V6. It is quite fun watching them. They are a tenacious bunch. Learning about tools, figuring out how cars work. They really like wrenches in their hands, more than many classes. One of my best auto classes for sure. It is enlivening to watch them go for it. They are moving right along and we will have the car dismantled in about a week.

Back to big block A bodies. It sounds like if I can't pull high 12's or so I am doing something really wrong or can't hook. I know I am leaving a lot on the table with my 7:1 compression, but if I am going to go into it, I would rather do it all at once on the bottom end, heads I'd work on now. The distance that I need to drive means I really won't be running any 500CID engines with massive roller cams etc. Probably always be something fast but still very steetable.

Nice to chat. Time to get going for the day.

My b body, with a 73 440 I hand honed and re-ringed freezing in Dad's garage not knowing what the hell I was doing, original 1973 pistons...crank 10-10 due to scoring. Did not resize the rods or anything fancy LOL. Direct Connection 284/484/108 cam, one 346 head and one 213 head (that's what it came with/thats all I had, milled .060 with amateur pocket porting and 933 6 pack springs. Street dominator and an 850 although I had many carbs and intakes. Had two sets of headers and one set of manifolds too, but the best I ever had was Hooker competition. It ran the quickest with a performer rpm. If I recall correctly was with a 9.5" GER converter that stalled around 4 grand, and I had a 3.91 gear with 28" hoosier cheater slicks. Although I may have installed my oddball super tight J converter by then, can't remember. 12.53 at like 106 was the best it ever did. always through mufflers. I learned alot and am still using this thing as a rolling research laboratory

You should be able to run harder in a drag oriented A body.

My first street strip 440 was a trw low compression piston kit from PAW, remember them? The build was totally bucks down and I bartered the machine work. The balance and blueprint included decking the block so the pistons were 90 down the hole. The 452 heads were cut to -80cc and cut on intake side also, the valve cover rails are very thin. The result was 9.5 to 1 cr 2.14 / 1.81 valves and my pocket porting and port matching. I recently resembled it with a mopar 557 cam I had an it made 520 hp and 545 torque.
This combination has so much stock parts it it you could change the cam and springs and put it in a motorhome.
If you could locate a good set of used pistons, standard or 30 over it would open up more power and reliability with forged pistons an a compression ratio.

For a few dollars more

All this information helps a lot. It looks like I may have found a better car to begin with. Not better as in faster, but better as in condition and that will fit the goals of the learning experience. More room to work due to size, and the car is in better shape, I have a few 8.75 3rd members on hand etc. so things will likely go a bit smoother and faster compared to narrowing an 8.8 etc.

It is a 60's B body. My guess is I am going to gain a solid 500 LBS. so that may make my 12 second goal more elusive.

But I think it is still doable. I have a modern GTO and I would like to be faster than that which I know I can be. It is a hoot to drive, but it is shaped like an egg.....

I ended up not doing the 60's B body. Good project for a little later. I have all this big block A body stuff laying around that isn't going to sell unless I literally give it away. So I am back to plan A with the 67 Valiant.

I bought a PTC 9.5" 4200 RPM stall gently used. We are narrowing the 8.8 right now and ordered longer studs etc. and starting to investigate the 440 more closely.

Kids are happy. Life is good.