Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2555897
09/28/18 10:49 AM
09/28/18 10:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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Sounds like specs similar to the .484 cam-ish.
Naturally I want it to sound like a hot rod, but I am far more concerned with the performance of it. .
It will be a manual car for ps and pb so idle isn't a concern. Performance is a much bigger issue!
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2555950
09/28/18 12:52 PM
09/28/18 12:52 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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If you pull the trigger on this and start a build thread with your students, I have a few parts to send your way. I know I have a full set of ss mopar 1.81/2.14 valves with keepers and retainers,and I might have a torquer intake, I know I have a old set of m/t valve covers. Sounds like a great way to get today's young people involved in the sport.
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: Iowan]
#2555956
09/28/18 01:16 PM
09/28/18 01:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,159 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,159
PA.
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I donated some parts to a school project for the kids before and shipped them on my dime. It too was never finished unless this was the same project. Bummer because I think the kids need projects like this more today than ever
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2555997
09/28/18 02:36 PM
09/28/18 02:36 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Back when I was in high school.. myself and 3 other class mates built up a 327ci fuel injected (mech injection) VW.. the engine was up front.. that thing ended up being crazey quick.. (for the time) ..the teacher made us tear it apart.. he said thatit would kill one of us.. it was a bittch to control.. GM gave us like 5 engines to work with.. was a fun time
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556019
09/28/18 03:53 PM
09/28/18 03:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245 Between a rock & a hard place
cudadoug
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245
Between a rock & a hard place
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Wow! You didn't port and mill the heads? That is alot of ET for not much work all things considered. You had substantially more compression than I will for sure.
I hear you on the weight. I am going to trim where I can and remove things like the back seat, battery in trunk etc. Typical stuff. If you're asking me, no didn't port the heads but they were milled flat to 79.5 cc's. Just stock junk, but well machined and carefully assembled. There's alot of power in the old saying "balanced and blueprinted". That said, low CR "smog" 440's can make 11 second power in an A-body too. The right cam/intake and the RIGHT converter/gear and you'd be surprised!
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556114
09/28/18 10:16 PM
09/28/18 10:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696 jersey
Spaceman Spiff
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696
jersey
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'70 440 from a Chrysler wagon. 36,000 miles. took it apart, ball honed, ( no ridge) new bearings and rings, put it back together. took the heads apart, had them milled, just to make sure they were true. no porting per say, but did clean up the casting flash. lunati bracket master cam, torker 2 intake 850 double pumper. block huggers, and 3 inch exhaust, with ultraflows( were called race magnums then) 4.56 gears. 12.21@112 in a 3,900lb '58 Plymouth. This was 1998, my buddy that put it together was 18.
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556163
09/29/18 02:09 AM
09/29/18 02:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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I didn't receive any help from here that I can recall other than advice which was very handy. We did finish the first car and I drove it around for a little while. Three times in 100 miles I was doing what you do with a muscle car and nearly was caught in the act. Three times. So....I decided to trade it off on a whim. A decision I regretted deeply ever since. It was a rust-free car and fairly quick for what it was. Nice looking and decent driving. It was rebuilt into a Demon clone and went to the midwest I just found out.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556194
09/29/18 09:06 AM
09/29/18 09:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
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Years ago (like 28) I bought a 73 Duster with a stock 69 newport 440 in it and only a 484 purple shaft. It had very restrictive cut down log manifolds and a stock converter and a 3.23 Sure grip. With just a little carb and ignition tuning it ran consistent 8.30's in the 1/8th...which I think would be about low 13's in the 1/4. I remember fitting a Magnum manifold to the passenger side (nothing I could do on the driver's side) and just that one change was worth almost 2/10ths....
I also learned that 440 performer (this was long before the RPM) manifold was a completely worthless POS, the old CH-4b (I think thats what it was) was much better as was the Weiand Action plus.
I eventually put in a 11:1 451 stroker 400 with home ported 452's and the Bagshaw "pro Parts" headers and a 10" fairbanks and 3.91's and got it into the 6.90's (about 10.90 in the 1/4),....but to be honest it was a lot more fun with just the warmed over near stock 440 and quiet mufflers.
The earlier 67-69 440' shortblocks had much better compression. if nothing else swap the slugs with the HU-Cast KB's to improve the static CR. Also you can cut down the heavy 250+ gram pressed piston pins 1/2" and save about 50 grams per hole...you'll still have plenty of piston support but you'll also need to re-balance.
If I knew then what I know now I would have got a 4.15 MP crank and punched the motor .022 (4.342" = factory 400 bore) over and just threw in a set of stock 400 pistons on the factory LY rods and had a higher compression 493....with a lighter bobweight than the stock 440. apparently, Mopar had this little low buck secret in mind when they settled on the 4.15" stroke.....Hmmm, too bad they didn't bother to tell anyone...back then they might have sold a lot more of them. You could easily buy plenty of low mileage 400's out of the junkyard for way less than a set of new pistons.
Last edited by Streetwize; 09/29/18 09:24 AM.
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556223
09/29/18 11:32 AM
09/29/18 11:32 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,159 Md.
carnut68
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master
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,159
Md.
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Here's an example. My 68 cuda fastback. 446 F2266 pistons .075 in the hole 509 cam home ported 906's Team G intake 850 DP TA 3800 391's TTI chassis headers. 11.91 @111. There was more in it. Build what you have the kids will have a blast whenever you get it to the track. Sounds like guys on here are willing to donate to the cause. I have a set of standard main bearings nib I will send if needed.
America First!
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556256
09/29/18 01:31 PM
09/29/18 01:31 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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I have a team G for 440 that is junk, never been touched and has the worst air fuel delivery I've ever seen! An M1 was 75 hp better on the dyno.
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556259
09/29/18 01:34 PM
09/29/18 01:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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If I do this, the goal is to just get the car going and operational. It takes a lot of effort to do this as we all know. That and when I was "done" with Mopars I literally got rid of every little ignition box on the shelves etc. that I had so I could focus on my other stuff. Basically after I traded the last 440 Dart off I was upset with myself, gas was $4.50 and I just decided that I wouldn't be doing this again. Naturally finances, economy etc. all changed and I now I wish I'd kept it.
A guy I know says it is best to "pick your junk and stick with it". I was doing that well, and I have now done that well with other brands, mainly Fords. Just take it off the shelf for extra parts. When I buy from rock auto I usually get 2-3 of the cheaper parts so I can shop from my own shelves.
I figure I have until late October to make up my mind on what to build. The reason I am taking awhile and researching it is we stared a "low-dollar crawler" build out of a vintage Bronco that was rough. Well, the kids did too good of job and next thing you know it turned into a budget resto. I couldn't tell a student who was doing a great job to do it poorly. Needless to say this has been awesome; best project we have built. It also cost far more than I had planned and took two years and I hope to have it on the road by Thanksgiving.
So after this fun project, I really want to make an educated decision about what the students need to learn, and what I can do on my end. Modern teaching is not like it was when most of us were in school. So I need to take on something that I can accomplish, most likely by the end of the year this school year. Even if that means it is a low 13 second car for round one.
We are currently learning basic skills by taking a car apart and going through some lawn mower engines and a Ford V6. It is quite fun watching them. They are a tenacious bunch. Learning about tools, figuring out how cars work. They really like wrenches in their hands, more than many classes. One of my best auto classes for sure. It is enlivening to watch them go for it. They are moving right along and we will have the car dismantled in about a week.
Back to big block A bodies. It sounds like if I can't pull high 12's or so I am doing something really wrong or can't hook. I know I am leaving a lot on the table with my 7:1 compression, but if I am going to go into it, I would rather do it all at once on the bottom end, heads I'd work on now. The distance that I need to drive means I really won't be running any 500CID engines with massive roller cams etc. Probably always be something fast but still very steetable.
Nice to chat. Time to get going for the day.
Last edited by toyotajeep; 09/29/18 01:37 PM. Reason: spelling
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2556350
09/29/18 07:00 PM
09/29/18 07:00 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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My first street strip 440 was a trw low compression piston kit from PAW, remember them? The build was totally bucks down and I bartered the machine work. The balance and blueprint included decking the block so the pistons were 90 down the hole. The 452 heads were cut to -80cc and cut on intake side also, the valve cover rails are very thin. The result was 9.5 to 1 cr 2.14 / 1.81 valves and my pocket porting and port matching. I recently resembled it with a mopar 557 cam I had an it made 520 hp and 545 torque. This combination has so much stock parts it it you could change the cam and springs and put it in a motorhome. If you could locate a good set of used pistons, standard or 30 over it would open up more power and reliability with forged pistons an a compression ratio.
For a few dollars more
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2557567
10/02/18 11:56 AM
10/02/18 11:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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All this information helps a lot. It looks like I may have found a better car to begin with. Not better as in faster, but better as in condition and that will fit the goals of the learning experience. More room to work due to size, and the car is in better shape, I have a few 8.75 3rd members on hand etc. so things will likely go a bit smoother and faster compared to narrowing an 8.8 etc.
It is a 60's B body. My guess is I am going to gain a solid 500 LBS. so that may make my 12 second goal more elusive.
But I think it is still doable. I have a modern GTO and I would like to be faster than that which I know I can be. It is a hoot to drive, but it is shaped like an egg.....
Last edited by toyotajeep; 10/02/18 11:57 AM.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: ET on a low-budget 440 A Body?
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2568756
10/24/18 10:32 AM
10/24/18 10:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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I ended up not doing the 60's B body. Good project for a little later. I have all this big block A body stuff laying around that isn't going to sell unless I literally give it away. So I am back to plan A with the 67 Valiant.
I bought a PTC 9.5" 4200 RPM stall gently used. We are narrowing the 8.8 right now and ordered longer studs etc. and starting to investigate the 440 more closely.
Kids are happy. Life is good.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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