Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: Crizila]
#1722094
01/10/15 01:12 AM
01/10/15 01:12 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,845 Tampa
DusterDave
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,845
Tampa
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I'm thinking this thread should go into the Tech Archives at some point.
Gone to the dark side with an LS3 powered '57 Chevy 210
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: RobX4406]
#1722096
01/10/15 01:39 AM
01/10/15 01:39 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,852 MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,852
MI, usa
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Quote:
#1 at $4/ft?
Find a new supplier. There are plenty of places to get #1 battery cable for under $2/ft. Welding cable will come in at $3/ft or less.
I bought 2/0 battery cable for under $3/ft
When writing the response I just did a quick price check off the internet to get an idea. Doug
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: dvw]
#1722097
01/10/15 01:49 AM
01/10/15 01:49 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271 Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
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Quote:
Quote:
#1 at $4/ft?
Find a new supplier. There are plenty of places to get #1 battery cable for under $2/ft. Welding cable will come in at $3/ft or less.
I bought 2/0 battery cable for under $3/ft
When writing the response I just did a quick price check off the internet to get an idea. Doug
Waytek and del city have pretty good pricing on cable. Del City is really nice if you buy $100, get free shipping with a 20% off coupon. Stuff gets heavy.
All good.
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1722100
01/10/15 07:12 AM
01/10/15 07:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
I KNOW what works for ME and what is trouble free and THAT is what I will continue to do.....NOT interested in how factory street cars are wired. I have several outside I could look at if I wanted to know.......You guys can have it from here
Monte
Monte same here, I doubt you will ever find a professional race car shop that uses the chassis as a ground in any type car they wire. there is a reason for that. so if people want to use it, have at it. my arrow uses the chassis and it works but it is analog and if I ever rewire it and go digital I will do it right. again you can't compare a regular car to todays race cars with the ignitions and electronics being used in some.
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: Dean_Kuzluzski]
#1722103
01/10/15 11:47 AM
01/10/15 11:47 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,852 MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,852
MI, usa
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Quote:
Quote:
I KNOW what works for ME and what is trouble free and THAT is what I will continue to do.....NOT interested in how factory street cars are wired. I have several outside I could look at if I wanted to know.......You guys can have it from here
Monte
As a business owner and entrepreneur you have to protect your reputation........like when I talk to the painters I know, they grind out any old body filler and start with clean metal so nothing affects their work. Same with old wiring. Not an attack just an observation. And my previous post basically agrees with you.
I worked in an EMI lab years ago, with engineers on an on-call basis. We would wrap modules and wiring with aluminum foil to one-by-on eliminate noise during tests on a new vehicle program. That would get sent back to the harness or module supplier for update. These tests took days sometimes longer than a week. Inductive coupling was a major nuisance. There is theoretical science in electronics that cannot be determined, on the drawing board so to speak, to the "real world" level without actual testing. So just looking at a car in the parking lot and mimicking it is a pretty funny statement.
Production vehicles have had "Clean" grounds since, at least, the late 80's. Given the number of onboard computers in todays high option cars, new car builders/companies only have to protect what could be now in the billions in cost for warranty and then loss of future sales. Nothing to learn from there for sure. The average racer it could cost thousands in a final round.
Glad someone mentioned "twisted pair". Sensors leads tend to act as attennae for noise (depending on length vs frequency). Twisted pair shields that out and gives a cleaner signal to your module. We all want that.
And when I said the "Copper was best" it was from a cost perspective.
We work with our EMI lab on a daily basis. My observations came from very reliable people who work with vehicle systems daily. Additional they all felt that the frequency of circuits used in a racecar were not as difficult to control noise as higher frequency circuits such as radio, key fobs ,etc. If anyone thinks today's vehicles are thrown together with out a intense amount of testing they are sadly mistaken. Especially on the electrical end. Has anyone here ever tested a connection running Micro amps? I'll bet not. It's unbelievable the lengths they go to to test. Doug
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: Dean_Kuzluzski]
#1722104
01/10/15 12:03 PM
01/10/15 12:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Quote:
I KNOW what works for ME and what is trouble free and THAT is what I will continue to do.....NOT interested in how factory street cars are wired. I have several outside I could look at if I wanted to know.......You guys can have it from here
Monte
As a business owner and entrepreneur you have to protect your reputation........like when I talk to the painters I know, they grind out any old body filler and start with clean metal so nothing affects their work. Same with old wiring. Not an attack just an observation. And my previous post basically agrees with you.
I worked in an EMI lab years ago, with engineers on an on-call basis. We would wrap modules and wiring with aluminum foil to one-by-on eliminate noise during tests on a new vehicle program. That would get sent back to the harness or module supplier for update. These tests took days sometimes longer than a week. Inductive coupling was a major nuisance. There is theoretical science in electronics that cannot be determined, on the drawing board so to speak, to the "real world" level without actual testing. So just looking at a car in the parking lot and mimicking it is a pretty funny statement.
Production vehicles have had "Clean" grounds since, at least, the late 80's. Given the number of onboard computers in todays high option cars, new car builders/companies only have to protect what could be now in the billions in cost for warranty and then loss of future sales. Nothing to learn from there for sure. The average racer it could cost thousands in a final round.
Glad someone mentioned "twisted pair". Sensors leads tend to act as attennae for noise (depending on length vs frequency). Twisted pair shields that out and gives a cleaner signal to your module. We all want that.
And when I said the "Copper was best" it was from a cost perspective.
Never ending argument regarding what applications have the most sensitive electronic packages ( race cares or street cars ). Street cars Shirley have more of it. As far as comparing warrantee costs to last round wins - You're kidding right??? Technology goes both ways regarding racing applications and street applications. "Experts" on both sides of that fence - fighting the same gremlins. I'm open to seeing both side of this argument. In the end, everyone has to make up their own minds on how they want to do ( wire) their stuff. I learned some stuff and will probably be redoing some wiring on my race car. ( I will continue to use the frame as a ground - works for me ). I am in the process of doing a complete wiring job on another project of mine. Starting from scratch. It will be carbureted at first, but will probably go to an EFI system in the future. This thread will be helpful in that regard. Although I am not the OP,thanks to all that contributed.
Fastest 300
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: Crizila]
#1722105
01/10/15 02:04 PM
01/10/15 02:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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The thing about THIS site in particular, is that experience with something is of little to no use. Because when you say something that others don't agree with, they are going to search out enough "experts" to debunk your input and say "see, I told you".
Just like all this talk about factory cars........I DON'T care. We are not talking about factory cars.
What I DO know, is that EFI race cars with high HP applications are VERY sensitive to noise and how they are wired. I found this out by having serious issues with a customers car and searching out some help to solve that problem. Rewiring the car with the "floating" ground system FIXED that car. I have since wired several other cars with that system and had ZERO problems. I guess I could have "argued" with the guy that told me to do that and tried to shoot his theory all full of holes..........but instead, I noticed that he had a LOT of really fast cars out there that he had wired up. "Hey, this guy must know something" was my thoughts........he did.
Bottom line, I was only trying to pass on some information that worked for me, NOT get in a theoretical debate. So guys just need to do what they want or are comfortable with..........because it really doesn't matter to me
Monte
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: dvw]
#1722106
01/10/15 02:07 PM
01/10/15 02:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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"#6 .... A shielded wire as part of that harness with a foil covering grounded at the module end only will act as a capacitor helping disperse noise." This is a new sub topic. Just want to be clear here on what the 3? knowledgeable engineers meant. Are we saying connecting shields at the "module end" is to be discouraged, or that both ends is better, or only connect at the power source end for grounding the shield? Do we mean by "disperse", to reduce in effect, or to send to other devices with a negative result? Revision: OK, the first question I asked above I should know is kinda dumb, since we are talking "sensor shields", and grounding at one end is a given standard. Maybe my first thought was really, ground the shield at the module, or take it all the way to the the "floating central ground, and then kinda answer my next question about disperse, which I thinking everybody but me understands to mean dissipate the noise issue.
Last edited by jcc; 01/10/15 03:30 PM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1722107
01/10/15 02:28 PM
01/10/15 02:28 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776 Ontario Canada
MattW
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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Quote:
The thing about THIS site in particular, is that experience with something is of little to no use. Because when you say something that others don't agree with, they are going to search out enough "experts" to debunk your input and say "see, I told you".
Just like all this talk about factory cars........I DON'T care. We are not talking about factory cars.
What I DO know, is that EFI race cars with high HP applications are VERY sensitive to noise and how they are wired. I found this out by having serious issues with a customers car and searching out some help to solve that problem. Rewiring the car with the "floating" ground system FIXED that car. I have since wired several other cars with that system and had ZERO problems. I guess I could have "argued" with the guy that told me to do that and tried to shoot his theory all full of holes..........but instead, I noticed that he had a LOT of really fast cars out there that he had wired up. "Hey, this guy must know something" was my thoughts........he did.
Bottom line, I was only trying to pass on some information that worked for me, NOT get in a theoretical debate. So guys just need to do what they want or are comfortable with..........because it really doesn't matter to me
Monte
Hey Monte at least this ones better than the Pinion Angle, LBA, 8 3/4 etc.... debate! Keep posting as they will too. Its up to the individual to try what works best for them. At least we have option and that is always good
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunk?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1722108
01/10/15 02:34 PM
01/10/15 02:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 562 Ohio
lockjaw-express
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 562
Ohio
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Monte, is correct on what he has posted...also, Current flows from Negative to Positive. So, the Grounding is just as important as anything else in a circuit.
Another point, are ground loops. So, the best way to connect grounds are from a central point, and "crow Foot" out from that point.
Also, It never occurred to me about the bonding/ground jumper from the heads to the main ground...great point, since hi-voltage (RF) would be bled back to the chassis/ground/battery.
The Battery is a power source, but also a great filter capacitor for all kinds of noise.
BTW, I am a BSEE, and I have learned a few things from you all!
Mark
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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck?
[Re: gregsdart]
#1722110
01/10/15 02:48 PM
01/10/15 02:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
OP
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OP
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Question for Monte= At what point did you start to experience trouble with different types of plug wires? I run a digital seven MSD unit, alky,(actually M5, which has about 5 percent nitroparafins in it) .027 gap, 15/1 compression, Blue Max wires.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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