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Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: dvw] #1722091
01/09/15 11:51 PM
01/09/15 11:51 PM
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Rittman Ohio
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Wow! Thanks for the research Doug
Gus


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: dvw] #1722092
01/10/15 12:58 AM
01/10/15 12:58 AM
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jacksonville,FLORIDA
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2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads
1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel.
motor; 10.258 @ 132.78
200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69
racemagnum
Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: dvw] #1722093
01/10/15 01:05 AM
01/10/15 01:05 AM
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Crizila Offline
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Quote:

I said I would report back what I found out about grounds. First I will say that I have NO experience in running cars anywhere near the power level of Montes stuff. I will also admit I'm not a degreed electrical engineer. I do work with car electrics on prototype and production vehicles everyday. I sought out 3 very knowledgeable electrical engineers that design and work on modern electrical vehicle systems. These guys are not racers but are extremely knowledgeable if the field of electronics. Two of them of the saw absolutely no need for a separate ground cable from the battery to a forward location in the car. The third saw the only possible advantage would be to run a separate cable from the battery to the cylinder heads themselves. His theory was that enough current was being sent through a "race type coil" that it was possible that the spark plug current might possibly corrupt the ground side. Though he thought the possibility was very slight. He also stated that any possible advantage would be lost unless this cable was routed and used for cylinder head grounding (and obviously the starter) only. Everyone agreed on a few things.
#1 Grounds should be as close as short as possible.
#2 Grounds should not be stacked more than a few. But should all be as close together as possible. Such as having multiple ground studs with-in a small area.
#3 The mass of the uni-body/roll cage is more than adequate as a ground plane.
#4 The use of a thermal grease such as Alonox on connections, especially where wiring is bolted to aluminum. This will reduce the likelihood of fretting and heat damage due to thermal expansion and contraction of aluminum.
#5 That cylinder head grounding to the chassis may have the most potential of anything that has been discussed here. The possibility of plating on head studs/bolts may inhibit good grounding of the spark plug, though they have yet to see it in the field.
#6 Do not run any high current cables near sensor or pickup wiring.
Make sure sensor wiring pairs are twisted to cancel magnetic field effects in the harness. A shielded wire as part of that harness with a foil covering grounded at the module end only will act as a capacitor helping disperse noise.

Finally everyone agreed that testing voltage drop on individual circuits under loaded conditions will tell the story if the ground is adequate. Although this could be accurately done with an Oscilloscope acceptable results could be taken with a Fluke meter. The min/max selection will take samples of voltage drop at .01 second while recording.
I hope everyone can gain some insight from this. While I don't think a dedicated ground would hurt, I don't think it is necessary either. In my world budget is paramount. With 25' of #1 cable going for close to $100 that is an area where my dollars might be spent wisely elsewhere.
Doug


Talked to a close friend of mine today ( Dick Headman - Headman headers ) who does a lot of EFI work worth "Fast Systems" and he echoed this thread. "Biggest problem is dirty connections and bundled wires". He recommends welding a ground stud (s) to the frame in a convenient area. He also mentioned grounding the rad ( especially aluminum radiators ) and individual aluminum head grounds. Alonox was also mentioned.


Fastest 300
Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: Crizila] #1722094
01/10/15 01:12 AM
01/10/15 01:12 AM
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Tampa
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DusterDave Offline
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I'm thinking this thread should go into the Tech Archives at some point.


Gone to the dark side with an LS3 powered '57 Chevy 210
Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: dvw] #1722095
01/10/15 01:13 AM
01/10/15 01:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406 Offline
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#1 at $4/ft?

Find a new supplier. There are plenty of places to get #1 battery cable for under $2/ft. Welding cable will come in at $3/ft or less.

I bought 2/0 battery cable for under $3/ft

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: RobX4406] #1722096
01/10/15 01:39 AM
01/10/15 01:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,975
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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Quote:

#1 at $4/ft?

Find a new supplier. There are plenty of places to get #1 battery cable for under $2/ft. Welding cable will come in at $3/ft or less.

I bought 2/0 battery cable for under $3/ft



When writing the response I just did a quick price check off the internet to get an idea.
Doug

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: dvw] #1722097
01/10/15 01:49 AM
01/10/15 01:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

#1 at $4/ft?

Find a new supplier. There are plenty of places to get #1 battery cable for under $2/ft. Welding cable will come in at $3/ft or less.

I bought 2/0 battery cable for under $3/ft



When writing the response I just did a quick price check off the internet to get an idea.
Doug




Waytek and del city have pretty good pricing on cable. Del City is really nice if you buy $100, get free shipping with a 20% off coupon. Stuff gets heavy.

All good.

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: slammedR/T] #1722098
01/10/15 02:15 AM
01/10/15 02:15 AM
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The Pale Blue Dot
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Quote:



spaghettimenders.com


That look very much like I wired up my Barracuda

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: Skeptic] #1722099
01/10/15 03:54 AM
01/10/15 03:54 AM
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North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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I KNOW what works for ME and what is trouble free and THAT is what I will continue to do.....NOT interested in how factory street cars are wired. I have several outside I could look at if I wanted to know.......You guys can have it from here

Monte

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: Monte_Smith] #1722100
01/10/15 07:12 AM
01/10/15 07:12 AM
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Quicktree Offline
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Quote:

I KNOW what works for ME and what is trouble free and THAT is what I will continue to do.....NOT interested in how factory street cars are wired. I have several outside I could look at if I wanted to know.......You guys can have it from here

Monte


Monte same here, I doubt you will ever find a professional race car shop that uses the chassis as a ground in any type car they wire. there is a reason for that. so if people want to use it, have at it. my arrow uses the chassis and it works but it is analog and if I ever rewire it and go digital I will do it right. again you can't compare a regular car to todays race cars with the ignitions and electronics being used in some.

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: Monte_Smith] #1722101
01/10/15 10:11 AM
01/10/15 10:11 AM
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Holly/MI
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Quote:

I KNOW what works for ME and what is trouble free and THAT is what I will continue to do.....NOT interested in how factory street cars are wired. I have several outside I could look at if I wanted to know.......You guys can have it from here

Monte




As a business owner and entrepreneur you have to protect your reputation........like when I talk to the painters I know, they grind out any old body filler and start with clean metal so nothing affects their work. Same with old wiring. Not an attack just an observation. And my previous post basically agrees with you.

I worked in an EMI lab years ago, with engineers on an on-call basis. We would wrap modules and wiring with aluminum foil to one-by-on eliminate noise during tests on a new vehicle program. That would get sent back to the harness or module supplier for update. These tests took days sometimes longer than a week. Inductive coupling was a major nuisance. There is theoretical science in electronics that cannot be determined, on the drawing board so to speak, to the "real world" level without actual testing. So just looking at a car in the parking lot and mimicking it is a pretty funny statement.

Production vehicles have had "Clean" grounds since, at least, the late 80's. Given the number of onboard computers in todays high option cars, new car builders/companies only have to protect what could be now in the billions in cost for warranty and then loss of future sales. Nothing to learn from there for sure. The average racer it could cost thousands in a final round.

Glad someone mentioned "twisted pair". Sensors leads tend to act as attennae for noise (depending on length vs frequency). Twisted pair shields that out and gives a cleaner signal to your module. We all want that.

And when I said the "Copper was best" it was from a cost perspective.


R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: Dean_Kuzluzski] #1722102
01/10/15 11:34 AM
01/10/15 11:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 16,215
north of coder
moparx Online content
"Butt Crack Bob"
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north of coder
could a ground buss be made from a strip of 3/4w x 1/4t copper strip ? what bolts would you use to secure the lugs ? brass ?

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: Dean_Kuzluzski] #1722103
01/10/15 11:47 AM
01/10/15 11:47 AM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I KNOW what works for ME and what is trouble free and THAT is what I will continue to do.....NOT interested in how factory street cars are wired. I have several outside I could look at if I wanted to know.......You guys can have it from here

Monte




As a business owner and entrepreneur you have to protect your reputation........like when I talk to the painters I know, they grind out any old body filler and start with clean metal so nothing affects their work. Same with old wiring. Not an attack just an observation. And my previous post basically agrees with you.

I worked in an EMI lab years ago, with engineers on an on-call basis. We would wrap modules and wiring with aluminum foil to one-by-on eliminate noise during tests on a new vehicle program. That would get sent back to the harness or module supplier for update. These tests took days sometimes longer than a week. Inductive coupling was a major nuisance. There is theoretical science in electronics that cannot be determined, on the drawing board so to speak, to the "real world" level without actual testing. So just looking at a car in the parking lot and mimicking it is a pretty funny statement.

Production vehicles have had "Clean" grounds since, at least, the late 80's. Given the number of onboard computers in todays high option cars, new car builders/companies only have to protect what could be now in the billions in cost for warranty and then loss of future sales. Nothing to learn from there for sure. The average racer it could cost thousands in a final round.

Glad someone mentioned "twisted pair". Sensors leads tend to act as attennae for noise (depending on length vs frequency). Twisted pair shields that out and gives a cleaner signal to your module. We all want that.

And when I said the "Copper was best" it was from a cost perspective.




We work with our EMI lab on a daily basis. My observations came from very reliable people who work with vehicle systems daily. Additional they all felt that the frequency of circuits used in a racecar were not as difficult to control noise as higher frequency circuits such as radio, key fobs ,etc. If anyone thinks today's vehicles are thrown together with out a intense amount of testing they are sadly mistaken. Especially on the electrical end. Has anyone here ever tested a connection running Micro amps? I'll bet not. It's unbelievable the lengths they go to to test.
Doug

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: Dean_Kuzluzski] #1722104
01/10/15 12:03 PM
01/10/15 12:03 PM
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Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I KNOW what works for ME and what is trouble free and THAT is what I will continue to do.....NOT interested in how factory street cars are wired. I have several outside I could look at if I wanted to know.......You guys can have it from here

Monte




As a business owner and entrepreneur you have to protect your reputation........like when I talk to the painters I know, they grind out any old body filler and start with clean metal so nothing affects their work. Same with old wiring. Not an attack just an observation. And my previous post basically agrees with you.

I worked in an EMI lab years ago, with engineers on an on-call basis. We would wrap modules and wiring with aluminum foil to one-by-on eliminate noise during tests on a new vehicle program. That would get sent back to the harness or module supplier for update. These tests took days sometimes longer than a week. Inductive coupling was a major nuisance. There is theoretical science in electronics that cannot be determined, on the drawing board so to speak, to the "real world" level without actual testing. So just looking at a car in the parking lot and mimicking it is a pretty funny statement.

Production vehicles have had "Clean" grounds since, at least, the late 80's. Given the number of onboard computers in todays high option cars, new car builders/companies only have to protect what could be now in the billions in cost for warranty and then loss of future sales. Nothing to learn from there for sure. The average racer it could cost thousands in a final round.

Glad someone mentioned "twisted pair". Sensors leads tend to act as attennae for noise (depending on length vs frequency). Twisted pair shields that out and gives a cleaner signal to your module. We all want that.

And when I said the "Copper was best" it was from a cost perspective.


Never ending argument regarding what applications have the most sensitive electronic packages ( race cares or street cars ). Street cars Shirley have more of it. As far as comparing warrantee costs to last round wins - You're kidding right??? Technology goes both ways regarding racing applications and street applications. "Experts" on both sides of that fence - fighting the same gremlins. I'm open to seeing both side of this argument. In the end, everyone has to make up their own minds on how they want to do ( wire) their stuff. I learned some stuff and will probably be redoing some wiring on my race car. ( I will continue to use the frame as a ground - works for me ). I am in the process of doing a complete wiring job on another project of mine. Starting from scratch. It will be carbureted at first, but will probably go to an EFI system in the future. This thread will be helpful in that regard. Although I am not the OP,thanks to all that contributed.

8391330-33kiddiecar.jpg (127 downloads)

Fastest 300
Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: Crizila] #1722105
01/10/15 02:04 PM
01/10/15 02:04 PM
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Monte_Smith Offline
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The thing about THIS site in particular, is that experience with something is of little to no use. Because when you say something that others don't agree with, they are going to search out enough "experts" to debunk your input and say "see, I told you".

Just like all this talk about factory cars........I DON'T care. We are not talking about factory cars.

What I DO know, is that EFI race cars with high HP applications are VERY sensitive to noise and how they are wired. I found this out by having serious issues with a customers car and searching out some help to solve that problem. Rewiring the car with the "floating" ground system FIXED that car. I have since wired several other cars with that system and had ZERO problems. I guess I could have "argued" with the guy that told me to do that and tried to shoot his theory all full of holes..........but instead, I noticed that he had a LOT of really fast cars out there that he had wired up. "Hey, this guy must know something" was my thoughts........he did.

Bottom line, I was only trying to pass on some information that worked for me, NOT get in a theoretical debate. So guys just need to do what they want or are comfortable with..........because it really doesn't matter to me

Monte

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: dvw] #1722106
01/10/15 02:07 PM
01/10/15 02:07 PM
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Trumussia
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"#6 .... A shielded wire as part of that harness with a foil covering grounded at the module end only will act as a capacitor helping disperse noise."

This is a new sub topic. Just want to be clear here on what the 3? knowledgeable engineers meant.

Are we saying connecting shields at the "module end" is to be discouraged, or that both ends is better, or only connect at the power source end for grounding the shield?

Do we mean by "disperse", to reduce in effect, or to send to other devices with a negative result?

Revision:
OK, the first question I asked above I should know is kinda dumb, since we are talking "sensor shields", and grounding at one end is a given standard. Maybe my first thought was really, ground the shield at the module, or take it all the way to the the "floating central ground, and then kinda answer my next question about disperse, which I thinking everybody but me understands to mean dissipate the noise issue.

Last edited by jcc; 01/10/15 03:30 PM.

If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: Monte_Smith] #1722107
01/10/15 02:28 PM
01/10/15 02:28 PM
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Posts: 2,775
Ontario Canada
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MattW Offline
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Ontario Canada
Quote:

The thing about THIS site in particular, is that experience with something is of little to no use. Because when you say something that others don't agree with, they are going to search out enough "experts" to debunk your input and say "see, I told you".

Just like all this talk about factory cars........I DON'T care. We are not talking about factory cars.

What I DO know, is that EFI race cars with high HP applications are VERY sensitive to noise and how they are wired. I found this out by having serious issues with a customers car and searching out some help to solve that problem. Rewiring the car with the "floating" ground system FIXED that car. I have since wired several other cars with that system and had ZERO problems. I guess I could have "argued" with the guy that told me to do that and tried to shoot his theory all full of holes..........but instead, I noticed that he had a LOT of really fast cars out there that he had wired up. "Hey, this guy must know something" was my thoughts........he did.

Bottom line, I was only trying to pass on some information that worked for me, NOT get in a theoretical debate. So guys just need to do what they want or are comfortable with..........because it really doesn't matter to me

Monte





Hey Monte at least this ones better than the Pinion Angle, LBA, 8 3/4 etc.... debate!
Keep posting as they will too. Its up to the individual to try what works best for them. At least we have option and that is always good

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunk? [Re: Monte_Smith] #1722108
01/10/15 02:34 PM
01/10/15 02:34 PM
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lockjaw-express Offline
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Ohio
Monte, is correct on what he has posted...also, Current flows from Negative to Positive. So, the Grounding is just as important as anything else in a circuit.

Another point, are ground loops. So, the best way to connect grounds are from a central point, and "crow Foot" out from that point.

Also, It never occurred to me about the bonding/ground jumper from the heads to the main ground...great point, since hi-voltage (RF) would be bled back to the chassis/ground/battery.

The Battery is a power source, but also a great filter capacitor for all kinds of noise.

BTW, I am a BSEE, and I have learned a few things from you all!

Mark

Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: jcc] #1722109
01/10/15 02:45 PM
01/10/15 02:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,527
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
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I was told ground only one end of the foil sheath. If you ground both ends, it becomes a receiver.


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: Grounding for battery in the trunck? [Re: gregsdart] #1722110
01/10/15 02:48 PM
01/10/15 02:48 PM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Question for Monte= At what point did you start to experience trouble with different types of plug wires? I run a digital seven MSD unit, alky,(actually M5, which has about 5 percent nitroparafins in it) .027 gap, 15/1 compression, Blue Max wires.


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
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