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I am needing a good set of rockers for lowdeck engine that I am changing heads/cam etc on.ez-1 heads w double springs, solid cam, street strip car that is seeing mostly strip currently, I am looking for a 1.6 rocker standard offset and have decided on either hughes or harlands, I saw some Harlands on clearance for a good price but it says that they are bushed, I went to harlands site and cant find any info on them, are they discontinued, or a lesser quality than the other(roller) ones? thanks for your time guys!

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Don`t know about the bushed ones but I`ve been runnin rollerized HS`s for about 8 years street strip w/an Isky .680-.660 solid roller........

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I dont know why they would call them a "bushed" rocker
if there isnt a bushing that can be replaced

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so what are t&d and jesel?

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so what are t&d and jesel?

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Call them and find out

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so what are t&d and jesel?

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Call them and find out

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that tells me you never used any anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?

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so what are t&d and jesel?

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Call them and find out

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that tells me you never used any anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?

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so what are t&d and jesel?

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Call them and find out

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that tells me you never used any anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?

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For that kind of coin , the answer is self evident.
I have roller H.S. and T&D's.......they both drip quality , but the T&D's leave a puddle.

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so what are t&d and jesel?

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Call them and find out

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that tells me you never used any anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?

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The original sets of H.S. single shaft set ups I have bought and used(all four sets) are needle bearings, the T&D single shaft set for the 440-1 and the paired shaft set for the B1 heads are needle bearings also, the Jesel pair shaft rockers for my current set of 440-1 are needle bearings also the Crane extruded aluminum single shaft set up on the B1-BS heads where not needle bearing anywhere, just like the Hughes rocker arms on my M.W. Victor heads have Lots of choices out there, sometimes new stuff comes out and nobody knows about them until they call the makers to find out

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I wasnt going to post on this, then decided, what the hel*, why not.

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As many of you know, I was a big proponent of the Harland Sharp rockers, always had good luck with them, and promoted them strongly.

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What I ended up using,wwas a BBC rocker body, bored to fit the valve centerline and dimensions of the BBM heads.

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I also got them to start making rockers that actually fit the geometry of the Edelbrock and Stealth heads, which they now offer as an option, and is really the corredct rocker to use instead fo the standard series, which fit iron heads better.I wanst happy witht he fitment, so did some measureing and gave them a dimension to move the axles where they need to be.

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and Hughes has put out a nice quality rocker, which is one of the best bargains out there in my opinion, for THAT TYPE of application.

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What is "THAT TYPE" of application? As long as the rocker has proper geometry (not roller placement) and is strong enough, I would use it in any application. 99.999999% of the time, the geometry is not correct just bolted on, so it will have to be corrected anyway. That is no exaggeration, BTW.

I think too many Mopar guys have gotten caught up in the hype surrounding HS rockers and have spent too much money on rockers that aren't any better in design than the budget rockers on the market, and in some cases worse.

I know there are a lot of HS fans on here and I am going to get skewered repeatedly, but at the end of the day, 2+2 still equals 4, and geometry is still math.

Let the skewering begin

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Mike,

It would have been easier if you judt called me a total jerk*of. That would have saved you a lot of typing. I am certainly not a builder of your ability, so I will simply sit back, and allow you to show us a collage of your Mopars that you have built. You are right,you caught me trying to pull a fast one over on all the Moparts members. I need to leave so I can go back to college and apparently get an education like yours. Thank you for your kind words.

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Todd see if you can get a group rate on the schooling as I need some too.

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I wasnt going to post on this, then decided, what the hel*, why not.

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Yeah, me either, but.......

I know there are a lot of very knowledgeable Mopar guys on here, but I think the whole rocker geometry issue is wildly misunderstood. I have some questions.

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As many of you know, I was a big proponent of the Harland Sharp rockers, always had good luck with them, and promoted them strongly.

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Why such a huge proponent of HS rockers? Are you a dealer or otherwise make a profit off of promoting their product? Why not promote T&D, Jesel, or ProForm strongly? I won't question the quality of their materials, but I will question the validity of their design as being superior to any other roller rocker.

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What I ended up using,wwas a BBC rocker body, bored to fit the valve centerline and dimensions of the BBM heads.

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How can this not be a problem? A BBC has a valve angle of 26 degrees versus a BBM at 15 degrees. This is why I mentioned in another thread about lash adjusters being off 10 degrees or more. The adjuster boss will be too high (too many degrees from the roller pinion-to-shaft c-line) and have an adjuster angle that is also too high when proper geometry is achieved.

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I also got them to start making rockers that actually fit the geometry of the Edelbrock and Stealth heads, which they now offer as an option, and is really the corredct rocker to use instead fo the standard series, which fit iron heads better.I wanst happy witht he fitment, so did some measureing and gave them a dimension to move the axles where they need to be.

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How does the lateral location of the roller axle have anything to do with proper geometry? That is nothing but a change in fulcrum length. Any fulcrum length rocker can be used on any cylinder head, provided it fits the confines of the head itself and clears the spring/retainer, simply (or not so simply) by moving the pivot location laterally to locate the roller on the valve. I still haven't heard a coherent explanation how that affects or corrects geometry. Proper geometry is achieved by raising or lowering the shaft and is almost always raised when using a roller rocker.

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and Hughes has put out a nice quality rocker, which is one of the best bargains out there in my opinion, for THAT TYPE of application.

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What is "THAT TYPE" of application? As long as the rocker has proper geometry (not roller placement) and is strong enough, I would use it in any application. 99.999999% of the time, the geometry is not correct just bolted on, so it will have to be corrected anyway. That is no exaggeration, BTW.

I think too many Mopar guys have gotten caught up in the hype surrounding HS rockers and have spent too much money on rockers that aren't any better in design than the budget rockers on the market, and in some cases worse.

I know there are a lot of HS fans on here and I am going to get skewered repeatedly, but at the end of the day, 2+2 still equals 4, and geometry is still math.

Let the skewering begin

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I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron

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Mike,

It would have been easier if you judt called me a total jerk*of. That would have saved you a lot of typing. I am certainly not a builder of your ability, so I will simply sit back, and allow you to show us a collage of your Mopars that you have built. You are right,you caught me trying to pull a fast one over on all the Moparts members. I need to leave so I can go back to college and apparently get an education like yours. Thank you for your kind words.

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Todd see if you can get a group rate on the schooling as I need some too.

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I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron

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I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron

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Ron, I wasn't trying to be negative, a bit emphatic maybe.

I just don't understand the following HS rockers have among the Mopar crowd at large. Does HS make their Mopar rockers out of some exclusive material that isn't used for GM or Ford rockers? I doubt it, so that's why I wandered why they are strongly promoted by Mopar guys and yet don't have that kind of standing in the rest of the automotive world.

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I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron

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Ron, I wasn't trying to be negative, a bit emphatic maybe.

I just don't understand the following HS rockers have among the Mopar crowd at large. Does HS make their Mopar rockers out of some exclusive material that isn't used for GM or Ford rockers? I doubt it, so that's why I wandered why they are strongly promoted by Mopar guys and yet don't have that kind of standing in the rest of the automotive world.

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Mike I remember the first time I visited the original HS shop about 30 years ago and seen my first set of roller rockers for a BBM.I was surprised at how beefy they were compared to the Cranes I was running at the time.
I think the reason for the huge Mopar following is they have been the best option available for so long because they don't fail as often
I just think most racers never give much thought to rocker arm geometry until things start breaking and wearing out prematurely
FWIW I appreciate you enlightened posts about rocker arm geometry
Gus

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I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron

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Ron, I wasn't trying to be negative, a bit emphatic maybe.

I just don't understand the following HS rockers have among the Mopar crowd at large. Does HS make their Mopar rockers out of some exclusive material that isn't used for GM or Ford rockers? I doubt it, so that's why I wandered why they are strongly promoted by Mopar guys and yet don't have that kind of standing in the rest of the automotive world.

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so whats your idea of a good Mopar rocker?

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Mike I remember the first time I visited the original HS shop about 30 years ago and seen my first set of roller rockers for a BBM.I was surprised at how beefy they were compared to the Cranes I was running at the time.
I think the reason for the huge Mopar following is they have been the best option available for so long because they don't fail as often
I just think most racers never give much thought to rocker arm geometry until things start breaking and wearing out prematurely
FWIW I appreciate you enlightened posts about rocker arm geometry
Gus

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Thanks Gus,

I guess I need a keyboard that has a "tone" key so I am not interpreted as being a jerk. That is not my intention and is, in fact, more of a emphatic plea to please, for the sake of your motor, think about this stuff.

I remember reading Smokey Yunicks book some time ago where he was talking about detonation (IIRC) and how it knocked the bottom end apart. Guys would try to find all kinds of ways to beef up the bottom end "till he** wouldn't have it" he said, and the breakage would just move on to the next weak link. If the problem was fixed, the parts wouldn't have to be so beefy (aka heavy), and still be able to live. Most guys have no idea how much they are giving up by not having this correct.
Cheers

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I guess I need a keyboard that has a "tone" key so I am not interpreted as being a jerk. That is not my intention and is, in fact, more of a emphatic plea to please, for the sake of your motor, think about this stuff.

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So after all of this discussion I am wondering . I purchased the "limited edition" Bushed Harland rockers from Mancini racing to go on my mild street build 440 with 440 Source heads.I am planning on putting the motor in this winter. Did I make a mistake?

Mike

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you may want to think things through the next time you choose to insult someone who probably has 100 times more experience and dedication to engine building and motorsports in general.

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... everyone else here must be stupid or inept.

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Crap, now I've got to figure out if I fall into the "stupid" or "inept" category...

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Seems to me, except for the few high end builds that it'd be cheaper for a race motor to have the guides possibly serviced after several hundred passes the to try & re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Heck we're already ahead with the factory "shaft" design.

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I guess I need a keyboard that has a "tone" key so I am not interpreted as being a jerk. That is not my intention and is, in fact, more of a emphatic plea to please, for the sake of your motor, think about this stuff.

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I don't post here very often but I do read many of the posts nonetheless. You come off as a real jackazz know it all most of the time to push your own agenda to sell your products.
I don't need a "tone" key because I have a tendency to speak what's on my mind and if I offend someone, it's usually my intention to do so, just like it is yours.
You seem to think you're the only person on this entire site that understands rocker arm geometry and the math to go along with it. Sorry buddy, you'd be dead wrong on that. You seem to have this natural gift, or propensity if you will, of coming off as holier than thou, thinking everyone else here must be stupid or inept.
The fact of the matter is that there are very few, if any, rocker arm components that are truly perfect out of the box that will work perfectly for every situation. I've been making tapered and offset tapered shims for many years to correct those issues when they don't fall into acceptable standards. The key here is what is deemed "acceptable" for the application. Now keep in mind I've probably only installed fewer than 100 sets of HS rocker arms, but you know what, none of them have shown to be "unacceptable" in geometry and none of those sets if corrected would've amounted to a hill of beans in better longevity, strength or valve train stability. Perhaps that's why those rockers are so highly regarded by most.
Lastly, if you have a point to make, perhaps you could show people how you went about correcting the geometry on those HS rockers for a given situation instead of implying that someone promotes only because they may sell them or make a profit by selling them. I sell all of the major brands of rocker arms, so I have no agenda whatsoever other than to tell you, you may want to think things through the next time you choose to insult someone who probably has 100 times more experience and dedication to engine building and motorsports in general.

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... everyone else here must be stupid or inept.

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Crap, now I've got to figure out if I fall into the "stupid" or "inept" category...

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Hey Brad, don't worry, there was a third and forth option there I didn't bother to list, so you don't fall in either of the ones I did list.

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So after all of this discussion I am wondering . I purchased the "limited edition" Bushed Harland rockers from Mancini racing to go on my mild street build 440 with 440 Source heads.I am planning on putting the motor in this winter. Did I make a mistake?

Mike

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I guess I need a keyboard that has a "tone" key so I am not interpreted as being a jerk. That is not my intention and is, in fact, more of a emphatic plea to please, for the sake of your motor, think about this stuff.

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I don't post here very often but I do read many of the posts nonetheless. You come off as a real jackazz know it all most of the time to push your own agenda to sell your products.
I don't need a "tone" key because I have a tendency to speak what's on my mind and if I offend someone, it's usually my intention to do so, just like it is yours.
You seem to think you're the only person on this entire site that understands rocker arm geometry and the math to go along with it. Sorry buddy, you'd be dead wrong on that. You seem to have this natural gift, or propensity if you will, of coming off as holier than thou, thinking everyone else here must be stupid or inept.
The fact of the matter is that there are very few, if any, rocker arm components that are truly perfect out of the box that will work perfectly for every situation. I've been making tapered and offset tapered shims for many years to correct those issues when they don't fall into acceptable standards. The key here is what is deemed "acceptable" for the application. Now keep in mind I've probably only installed fewer than 100 sets of HS rocker arms, but you know what, none of them have shown to be "unacceptable" in geometry and none of those sets if corrected would've amounted to a hill of beans in better longevity, strength or valve train stability. Perhaps that's why those rockers are so highly regarded by most.
Lastly, if you have a point to make, perhaps you could show people how you went about correcting the geometry on those HS rockers for a given situation instead of implying that someone promotes only because they may sell them or make a profit by selling them. I sell all of the major brands of rocker arms, so I have no agenda whatsoever other than to tell you, you may want to think things through the next time you choose to insult someone who probably has 100 times more experience and dedication to engine building and motorsports in general.

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Why is it every time you have a disagreement with me, the name calling starts?

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Try to focus on the bigger picture and put it all in context. You're the guy that claims to offer free advice, right? Where is it?
Is the extent of your free advice to tell everyone to send you their measurements and you can correct their geometry, because it sure looks that way. That way you can sell your product here instead of on Craigslist. Is your only reason for being here to sell your product, because it certainly seems that way.
In the end you may have some valid information, but it's quite clear you're not actually ready to share any of it other than to tell everyone the Mopar rocker geometry is all messed up and has to be corrected. Lastly, I don't recall actually calling you a name you didn't like in the past. Sorry, that's my mistake, I call it like I see it.

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Did I say anything about a product in this thread? If you are referring to another thread, I'd be willing to bet a search of your posts would show you promoting yourself as well. So would just about every other member that has a business. BTW, the other thread you refer to was by request by some of your fellow members.

Before this thread, I hadn't posted for quite some time, although like you, I have been reading many of them. I didn't try to discourage the OP from buying HS rockers, but when I saw information that I didn't agree with, I spoke up, just like you and other members do.

When I asked if he was a dealer or profited in some kind of way, it was because a businessman will promote the products he manufactures and/or sells in order to stay in business. There is nothing wrong with that, but you have to be aware of any biases. BTW, he didn't confirm or deny that status, just became offended thinking I insinuated he was ripping off Moparts members. I was not and I apologized for making him think that I was.

Then you came along and decided you needed to attack me and call me names and make assumptions that you know more about me than I know about myself. I purposely don't tell a lot about myself because I want people to think about what I am saying, and not about who they think I am. I certainly don't need any help being stereotyped.

If I come across as a know it all, I can assure you I do not know it all. I am however passionate about valvetrain geometry and chose to specialize in it because it is so important and few truly understand it (and the ones who do ain't talkin').
If I come across as holier than thou, maybe I'm an ordained minister. You never know. JK

As far as free advice, everything I have tried to explain on here has been free and I know a lot of members have benefitted from it. Outside of showing up on every members doorstep and doing a demonstration of correct valvetrain geometry, I don't know what you want me to offer. I suppose I could buy everyone a couple manufacturing machines, tooling, fixturing, and materials, give them the formulas and a brand spanking new calculator, and tell them to go to town. Of course, it would have to all be free.

As far as my presence here goes, I am not just here to sell parts as you insinuate. I just don't voice my opinions on many other topics(some have an opinion on everything), because I choose to do that in the area I specialize. My choice. I still try to learn as much as I can from those who are more knowledgeable in other areas.

And finally, I also call it like I see it, but I don't call people as I see them, unless I have something nice to say. In all sincerity Dan, Have a pleasant day!

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Care to elaborate as to the depth that you correct any alleged faults??

This is info that would need to be discussed prior to any arrangement of work performed anyways.

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FWIW, some of what you're asking about may be shown in his parts advertisement here: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post7923218

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... everyone else here must be stupid or inept.

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Crap, now I've got to figure out if I fall into the "stupid" or "inept" category...

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Hey Brad, don't worry, there was a third and forth option there I didn't bother to list, so you don't fall in either of the ones I did list.

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Oh, you must mean:
#3 - Moparts keyboard junkie w/o a running Mopar for over 3 years
#4 - Anal-retentive drag tech-o-phile w/o a timeslip to his name for over 3 years

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Care to elaborate as to the depth that you correct any alleged faults??

This is info that would need to be discussed prior to any arrangement of work performed anyways.

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FWIW, some of what you're asking about may be shown in his parts advertisement here: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post7923218

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OK, Thanks.
Very interesting product.

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Oh my all this bantering....Some of us just want a simple yes or no with validated reasoning. As I as well have the Mancini H/S bushed rockers for my 431 stroker with Mopar aluminum heads (P5153524) with a Mopar .528 solid cam. So are these rockers a good choice?
Thank you.

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