Moparts

tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed

Posted By: upnover

tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/29/13 05:55 PM

I am needing a good set of rockers for lowdeck engine that I am changing heads/cam etc on.ez-1 heads w double springs, solid cam, street strip car that is seeing mostly strip currently, I am looking for a 1.6 rocker standard offset and have decided on either hughes or harlands, I saw some Harlands on clearance for a good price but it says that they are bushed, I went to harlands site and cant find any info on them, are they discontinued, or a lesser quality than the other(roller) ones? thanks for your time guys!
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/29/13 06:37 PM

Quote:

I am needing a good set of rockers for lowdeck engine that I am changing heads/cam etc on.ez-1 heads w double springs, solid cam, street strip car that is seeing mostly strip currently, I am looking for a 1.6 rocker standard offset and have decided on either hughes or harlands, I saw some Harlands on clearance for a good price but it says that they are bushed, I went to harlands site and cant find any info on them, are they discontinued, or a lesser quality than the other(roller) ones? thanks for your time guys!




Don`t know about the bushed ones but I`ve been runnin rollerized HS`s for about 8 years street strip w/an Isky .680-.660 solid roller........
Posted By: topside

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/29/13 07:04 PM

I have a set of each (roller & bushed HS), no problems to report with either. The bushed style obviously does away with any fears about roller bearing failure, but I wasn't worried about that I got them, it was just a good deal on them from another racer (new in box, sitting around for years).
IIRC, Ron (383man) has a Hughes setup - don't recall if bushed/roller - but he's happy with them on his street/strip monster.
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/29/13 08:02 PM

I've installed the so called "bushed" rockers a few times on customer engines. They aren't actually bushed though. There is no bushing, just the parent aluminum from the extrusion like a Crane gold rocker. I prefer the rollerized Harland Sharps, especially if a solid roller cam will end up in the motor with higher spring pressures than the typical flat tappet cams.
One other difference is the shafts. The less expensive rockers use shafts from pioneer. they have cup plugs in the shafts and they typically spit oil out around the plugs. Every set I've installed I've had to replace the plugs to get them to stop leaking.
The better rockers use a harder shaft with screw in plugs on the ends.
Basically you get what you pay for.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/29/13 08:07 PM

Buy the good ones(rollers, not extruded non rollers or bushed ) and don't look back I have a set of the very early Harand Sharp 1.5 from the mid 1960s on one of my street motors, they had been abused and misused prior to me buying and using them, there still rolling right along without any issues I have bought and used several more sets of the new Harland Sharp 1.6 ratio(checked at the retainers to be 1.64 to 1.65 ) and found that like the 1.5 ratio rockers(checked out to be 1.54 ) they have more ratio than advertised, not less like a lot of the other rockers out there
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/29/13 08:40 PM

I dont know why they would call them a "bushed" rocker
if there isnt a bushing that can be replaced
Posted By: upnover

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/29/13 09:22 PM

thanks for the info, I will hold out for the roller style.
Posted By: tubtar

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/29/13 10:11 PM

+1 for rollerized.
If you run any " larger " cam and / or elevated spring pressure , it is the clear way to go.
Posted By: cudatom

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/30/13 12:50 AM

My brother has a set that is at least 25 yrs old. I got them w/a car we bought in 1988. Ran them on my Cuda for 12 yrs and my brother has had then for 13. I have no idea how old they were when we got them but they had been used.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/30/13 01:23 AM

The nice thing about Harlan Sharp rockers is the fact that even old used ones are still worth more than new cheap ones. And a lot easier to sell if you ever want or have to.
Posted By: 383man

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/30/13 08:00 AM

These are the bushed ( ? ) roller tip Hughes I have had on my eng for 2-1/2 years and they are holding up great. Last valve adjustment they were all still right on the money. Ron

Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 12/30/13 05:38 PM

Quote:

I dont know why they would call them a "bushed" rocker
if there isnt a bushing that can be replaced





IF they are the "exclusive" ones sold by Mancini's they are advertised as "bushed style".......meaning extruded aluminum.
Posted By: upnover

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/04/14 04:00 PM

I found a set of the Harland rollers, they are supposed to be new just removed from the package, but not installed, im saving just under $100 compared to new, but for what they cost i'll take any savings that I can get, thanks guys for all of the replies!

si
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/04/14 04:30 PM

so what are t&d and jesel?
Posted By: tubtar

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/04/14 07:30 PM

Quote:

so what are t&d and jesel?




Price ? Somewhere just north of 1100.00 for individual shaft ( W-9 ), and probably slightly less for shared shaft.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/04/14 07:35 PM

Quote:

so what are t&d and jesel?


Call them and find out
Posted By: topside

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/04/14 07:41 PM

The bushed HS I have do actually have bushings. Apparently - if that's not common for them - they were custom-made, which would make sense since I got them from a racer buddy who'd be likely to order something like that. And you should definitely run the hardened shafts.
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/04/14 08:08 PM

I bought the "bushed" HS from Mancini, they do not actually have a bushing its just the aluminum.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/05/14 02:27 AM

I live about 45 min.from the HS shop and I went to see the bushed Mancini units when I first seen them. Now the ones I had in my hands had an actual bronze bushing in them Maybe they have since cheapen
them since they first came out.I prefer the bronze myself on a S/S engine.
I had a good older set of Isky rockers done up by RAS so I just stayed with them.
Gus

Attached picture 7985217-004-001.JPG
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/05/14 03:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

so what are t&d and jesel?


Call them and find out


that tells me you never used any anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?
Posted By: skrews

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/05/14 03:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

so what are t&d and jesel?


Call them and find out


that tells me you never used any anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?




Bearing type. I believe T&D has rockers for std offset BB single shaft. Jesel is likely all individual shaft type stuff. Both are top O line gear with pricing to reflect just that.
Posted By: tubtar

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/05/14 08:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

so what are t&d and jesel?


Call them and find out


that tells me you never used any anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?




For that kind of coin , the answer is self evident.
I have roller H.S. and T&D's.......they both drip quality , but the T&D's leave a puddle.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/05/14 09:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

so what are t&d and jesel?


Call them and find out


that tells me you never used any anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?


The original sets of H.S. single shaft set ups I have bought and used(all four sets) are needle bearings, the T&D single shaft set for the 440-1 and the paired shaft set for the B1 heads are needle bearings also, the Jesel pair shaft rockers for my current set of 440-1 are needle bearings also the Crane extruded aluminum single shaft set up on the B1-BS heads where not needle bearing anywhere, just like the Hughes rocker arms on my M.W. Victor heads have Lots of choices out there, sometimes new stuff comes out and nobody knows about them until they call the makers to find out
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/05/14 06:42 PM

I wasnt going to post on this, then decided, what the hel*, why not.

The original idea of the non bushed Harland Sharp came about when I approached H/S, as I saw Crane going under, and was looking for a option that perhaps I could make affordably, to replace the Crane Golds. At that time, it didnt appear Crane ( S&S now) was going to be coming back anytime soon. The Indy ( Dove rockers) werent anyones favorite, the Probes were being sold off, whith some of the Fords going to one guy, and ultimately the Mopar Probes being bought out by Dave Hughes. At that time, I also didnt know how soon the Hughes would be up and running, nor if they would be making any changes to the Probe rockers.

As many of you know, I was a big proponent of the Harland Sharp rockers, always had good luck with them, and promoted them strongly. I decided to see if we could develop a new UN BUSHED rocker, using the Harland Sharp extrusions, that would be a replacement for the Crane Golds. I spent several months going back and forth with ideas, testing on different heads, measurements etc. Dwayne Porter was also involved, as I valued his input, and we always bounced ideas of each other, so we came up with what I thought was a good rocker, within a price point that would work, and be of decent quality, and good value. What I ended up using,wwas a BBC rocker body, bored to fit the valve centerline and dimensions of the BBM heads. My focus at that time was on Edelbrock and 906 style heads, as I thought thats where the market for that style of rockers would fit best. The biggest challenge was going to be trying to find a decent rocker shaft and adjuster screws.H/S wanted to use a different color anodizing, or perhaps even natural aluminum color, to differentiate from their premium roller rockers. In fact, they didnt even want to call them H/S rockers, but simply private brand them. I still have all the rockers, demos, and prototype pieces, which I can post up when I get to the shop again.

Now for the fun. As I was doing all this, and never mentioned to me ( which I have my doubts about anyhow), their all of a sudden was " another" party, doing " the same thing". Sparing a lot of boring details, it appeared that my work was used for another supplier, that had deeper pockets than me, and next thing I know, my efforts appeared to be used to help someone who was going to order more sets than I could afford. I'll stop at this point with my comments...lol...and let you all read between the lines from here.

I also got them to start making rockers that actually fit the geometry of the Edelbrock and Stealth heads, which they now offer as an option, and is really the corredct rocker to use instead fo the standard series, which fit iron heads better.I wanst happy witht he fitment, so did some measureing and gave them a dimension to move the axles where they need to be.

Fast forward to current times, and I see no need for these products over the last few years, as Crane has re-introduced their gold rockers, and Hughes has put out a nice quality rocker, which is one of the best bargains out there in my opinion, for THAT TYPE of application.

And now you know, the " rest of the story"....
Posted By: B3RE

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/05/14 10:28 PM

Quote:

I wasnt going to post on this, then decided, what the hel*, why not.



Yeah, me either, but.......

I know there are a lot of very knowledgeable Mopar guys on here, but I think the whole rocker geometry issue is wildly misunderstood. I have some questions.

Quote:

As many of you know, I was a big proponent of the Harland Sharp rockers, always had good luck with them, and promoted them strongly.



Why such a huge proponent of HS rockers? Are you a dealer or otherwise make a profit off of promoting their product? Why not promote T&D, Jesel, or ProForm strongly? I won't question the quality of their materials, but I will question the validity of their design as being superior to any other roller rocker.

Quote:

What I ended up using,wwas a BBC rocker body, bored to fit the valve centerline and dimensions of the BBM heads.




How can this not be a problem? A BBC has a valve angle of 26 degrees versus a BBM at 15 degrees. This is why I mentioned in another thread about lash adjusters being off 10 degrees or more. The adjuster boss will be too high (too many degrees from the roller pinion-to-shaft c-line) and have an adjuster angle that is also too high when proper geometry is achieved.

Quote:

I also got them to start making rockers that actually fit the geometry of the Edelbrock and Stealth heads, which they now offer as an option, and is really the corredct rocker to use instead fo the standard series, which fit iron heads better.I wanst happy witht he fitment, so did some measureing and gave them a dimension to move the axles where they need to be.




How does the lateral location of the roller axle have anything to do with proper geometry? That is nothing but a change in fulcrum length. Any fulcrum length rocker can be used on any cylinder head, provided it fits the confines of the head itself and clears the spring/retainer, simply (or not so simply) by moving the pivot location laterally to locate the roller on the valve. I still haven't heard a coherent explanation how that affects or corrects geometry. Proper geometry is achieved by raising or lowering the shaft and is almost always raised when using a roller rocker.

Quote:

and Hughes has put out a nice quality rocker, which is one of the best bargains out there in my opinion, for THAT TYPE of application.




What is "THAT TYPE" of application? As long as the rocker has proper geometry (not roller placement) and is strong enough, I would use it in any application. 99.999999% of the time, the geometry is not correct just bolted on, so it will have to be corrected anyway. That is no exaggeration, BTW.

I think too many Mopar guys have gotten caught up in the hype surrounding HS rockers and have spent too much money on rockers that aren't any better in design than the budget rockers on the market, and in some cases worse.

I know there are a lot of HS fans on here and I am going to get skewered repeatedly, but at the end of the day, 2+2 still equals 4, and geometry is still math.

Let the skewering begin
Posted By: 80fbody

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/05/14 10:45 PM

Proform & Harland in the same post. That could be a first. They rarely have a failure. Great rep is the name of the game & HS is one of those companies that's maintained that for many years. Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/05/14 11:54 PM

Mike,

It would have been easier if you judt called me a total jerk*of. That would have saved you a lot of typing. I am certainly not a builder of your ability, so I will simply sit back, and allow you to show us a collage of your Mopars that you have built. You are right,you caught me trying to pull a fast one over on all the Moparts members. I need to leave so I can go back to college and apparently get an education like yours. Thank you for your kind words.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 12:05 AM

Quote:

Mike,

It would have been easier if you judt called me a total jerk*of. That would have saved you a lot of typing. I am certainly not a builder of your ability, so I will simply sit back, and allow you to show us a collage of your Mopars that you have built. You are right,you caught me trying to pull a fast one over on all the Moparts members. I need to leave so I can go back to college and apparently get an education like yours. Thank you for your kind words.




Todd see if you can get a group rate on the schooling as I need some too.
Posted By: 383man

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 12:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I wasnt going to post on this, then decided, what the hel*, why not.



Yeah, me either, but.......

I know there are a lot of very knowledgeable Mopar guys on here, but I think the whole rocker geometry issue is wildly misunderstood. I have some questions.

Quote:

As many of you know, I was a big proponent of the Harland Sharp rockers, always had good luck with them, and promoted them strongly.



Why such a huge proponent of HS rockers? Are you a dealer or otherwise make a profit off of promoting their product? Why not promote T&D, Jesel, or ProForm strongly? I won't question the quality of their materials, but I will question the validity of their design as being superior to any other roller rocker.

Quote:

What I ended up using,wwas a BBC rocker body, bored to fit the valve centerline and dimensions of the BBM heads.




How can this not be a problem? A BBC has a valve angle of 26 degrees versus a BBM at 15 degrees. This is why I mentioned in another thread about lash adjusters being off 10 degrees or more. The adjuster boss will be too high (too many degrees from the roller pinion-to-shaft c-line) and have an adjuster angle that is also too high when proper geometry is achieved.

Quote:

I also got them to start making rockers that actually fit the geometry of the Edelbrock and Stealth heads, which they now offer as an option, and is really the corredct rocker to use instead fo the standard series, which fit iron heads better.I wanst happy witht he fitment, so did some measureing and gave them a dimension to move the axles where they need to be.




How does the lateral location of the roller axle have anything to do with proper geometry? That is nothing but a change in fulcrum length. Any fulcrum length rocker can be used on any cylinder head, provided it fits the confines of the head itself and clears the spring/retainer, simply (or not so simply) by moving the pivot location laterally to locate the roller on the valve. I still haven't heard a coherent explanation how that affects or corrects geometry. Proper geometry is achieved by raising or lowering the shaft and is almost always raised when using a roller rocker.

Quote:

and Hughes has put out a nice quality rocker, which is one of the best bargains out there in my opinion, for THAT TYPE of application.




What is "THAT TYPE" of application? As long as the rocker has proper geometry (not roller placement) and is strong enough, I would use it in any application. 99.999999% of the time, the geometry is not correct just bolted on, so it will have to be corrected anyway. That is no exaggeration, BTW.

I think too many Mopar guys have gotten caught up in the hype surrounding HS rockers and have spent too much money on rockers that aren't any better in design than the budget rockers on the market, and in some cases worse.

I know there are a lot of HS fans on here and I am going to get skewered repeatedly, but at the end of the day, 2+2 still equals 4, and geometry is still math.

Let the skewering begin




I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron
Posted By: B3RE

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 12:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Mike,

It would have been easier if you judt called me a total jerk*of. That would have saved you a lot of typing. I am certainly not a builder of your ability, so I will simply sit back, and allow you to show us a collage of your Mopars that you have built. You are right,you caught me trying to pull a fast one over on all the Moparts members. I need to leave so I can go back to college and apparently get an education like yours. Thank you for your kind words.




Todd see if you can get a group rate on the schooling as I need some too.




No sir, I'm not into name calling, and I was not beating you up. I find you to be one of the more knowledgeable people on this forum. But, I said that rocker geometry was misunderstood among many Mopar people and I stand by that assertion. That is not a slam. I am simply offering free advice and trying to get people to think. When someone draws a logical conclusion, it is almost always correct.

Rocker arm design is largely the same from one brand to another, although quality of material and machining may vary a great deal. That is why HS rockers may last longer, but they do not have better geometry.

I apologize for offending you. I only want the best for Mopar fans, just as you do.

BTW, when did it become a bad thing to have an education?
Posted By: B3RE

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 01:05 AM

Quote:

I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron




Ron, I wasn't trying to be negative, a bit emphatic maybe.

I just don't understand the following HS rockers have among the Mopar crowd at large. Does HS make their Mopar rockers out of some exclusive material that isn't used for GM or Ford rockers? I doubt it, so that's why I wandered why they are strongly promoted by Mopar guys and yet don't have that kind of standing in the rest of the automotive world.
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 02:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron




Ron, I wasn't trying to be negative, a bit emphatic maybe.

I just don't understand the following HS rockers have among the Mopar crowd at large. Does HS make their Mopar rockers out of some exclusive material that isn't used for GM or Ford rockers? I doubt it, so that's why I wandered why they are strongly promoted by Mopar guys and yet don't have that kind of standing in the rest of the automotive world.


so whats your idea of a good Mopar rocker?
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 02:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron




Ron, I wasn't trying to be negative, a bit emphatic maybe.

I just don't understand the following HS rockers have among the Mopar crowd at large. Does HS make their Mopar rockers out of some exclusive material that isn't used for GM or Ford rockers? I doubt it, so that's why I wandered why they are strongly promoted by Mopar guys and yet don't have that kind of standing in the rest of the automotive world.



Mike I remember the first time I visited the original HS shop about 30 years ago and seen my first set of roller rockers for a BBM.I was surprised at how beefy they were compared to the Cranes I was running at the time.
I think the reason for the huge Mopar following is they have been the best option available for so long because they don't fail as often
I just think most racers never give much thought to rocker arm geometry until things start breaking and wearing out prematurely
FWIW I appreciate you enlightened posts about rocker arm geometry
Gus

Attached picture 7986801-rearviewsavoy.jpg
Posted By: B3RE

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 03:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron




Ron, I wasn't trying to be negative, a bit emphatic maybe.

I just don't understand the following HS rockers have among the Mopar crowd at large. Does HS make their Mopar rockers out of some exclusive material that isn't used for GM or Ford rockers? I doubt it, so that's why I wandered why they are strongly promoted by Mopar guys and yet don't have that kind of standing in the rest of the automotive world.


so whats your idea of a good Mopar rocker?


My idea of a good Mopar rocker is far broader than just Harland Sharps. However, none of the rockers that just bolt on to the cast in pedestal type heads are worth a hoot without the geometry being corrected. Proper geometry is far more than the rocker itself. Most Moparts members would laugh at someone who insisted they had 10:1 compression just because it said so on the box of pistons. We all know, or should know, that there are many other variables that need to be considered. The same thing applies to rocker geometry. It's not all in the rocker, just like compression is not just in the piston.
The reason I referenced ProForm rockers, is because I corrected geometry on a motor with them installed over a year ago. No problems to date and they are fine in their proper application.
In short, the rocker that gives the needed strength for the best price is my idea of a good Mopar rocker. But, to say they have proper geometry would not be correct.
Posted By: B3RE

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 04:27 PM

Quote:

Mike I remember the first time I visited the original HS shop about 30 years ago and seen my first set of roller rockers for a BBM.I was surprised at how beefy they were compared to the Cranes I was running at the time.
I think the reason for the huge Mopar following is they have been the best option available for so long because they don't fail as often
I just think most racers never give much thought to rocker arm geometry until things start breaking and wearing out prematurely
FWIW I appreciate you enlightened posts about rocker arm geometry
Gus



Thanks Gus,

I guess I need a keyboard that has a "tone" key so I am not interpreted as being a jerk. That is not my intention and is, in fact, more of a emphatic plea to please, for the sake of your motor, think about this stuff.

I remember reading Smokey Yunicks book some time ago where he was talking about detonation (IIRC) and how it knocked the bottom end apart. Guys would try to find all kinds of ways to beef up the bottom end "till he** wouldn't have it" he said, and the breakage would just move on to the next weak link. If the problem was fixed, the parts wouldn't have to be so beefy (aka heavy), and still be able to live. Most guys have no idea how much they are giving up by not having this correct.
Cheers
Posted By: 80fbody

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 05:10 PM

Seems to me, except for the few high end builds that it'd be cheaper for a race motor to have the guides possibly serviced after several hundred passes the to try & re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Heck we're already ahead with the factory "shaft" design.
Posted By: 70satelliteguy

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 05:29 PM

So after all of this discussion I am wondering . I purchased the "limited edition" Bushed Harland rockers from Mancini racing to go on my mild street build 440 with 440 Source heads.I am planning on putting the motor in this winter. Did I make a mistake?

Mike
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 05:42 PM


Quote:


I guess I need a keyboard that has a "tone" key so I am not interpreted as being a jerk. That is not my intention and is, in fact, more of a emphatic plea to please, for the sake of your motor, think about this stuff.




I don't post here very often but I do read many of the posts nonetheless. You come off as a real jackazz know it all most of the time to push your own agenda to sell your products.
I don't need a "tone" key because I have a tendency to speak what's on my mind and if I offend someone, it's usually my intention to do so, just like it is yours.
You seem to think you're the only person on this entire site that understands rocker arm geometry and the math to go along with it. Sorry buddy, you'd be dead wrong on that. You seem to have this natural gift, or propensity if you will, of coming off as holier than thou, thinking everyone else here must be stupid or inept.
The fact of the matter is that there are very few, if any, rocker arm components that are truly perfect out of the box that will work perfectly for every situation. I've been making tapered and offset tapered shims for many years to correct those issues when they don't fall into acceptable standards. The key here is what is deemed "acceptable" for the application. Now keep in mind I've probably only installed fewer than 100 sets of HS rocker arms, but you know what, none of them have shown to be "unacceptable" in geometry and none of those sets if corrected would've amounted to a hill of beans in better longevity, strength or valve train stability. Perhaps that's why those rockers are so highly regarded by most.
Lastly, if you have a point to make, perhaps you could show people how you went about correcting the geometry on those HS rockers for a given situation instead of implying that someone promotes only because they may sell them or make a profit by selling them. I sell all of the major brands of rocker arms, so I have no agenda whatsoever other than to tell you, you may want to think things through the next time you choose to insult someone who probably has 100 times more experience and dedication to engine building and motorsports in general.
Posted By: BradH

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 05:45 PM

Quote:

So after all of this discussion I am wondering . I purchased the "limited edition" Bushed Harland rockers from Mancini racing to go on my mild street build 440 with 440 Source heads.I am planning on putting the motor in this winter. Did I make a mistake?

Mike



No, you're probably good. Just verify the side-to-side clearance, make sure the shafts have been unplugged and cleaned out properly, and expect custom-length pushrods will be required to match the rockers.
Posted By: 80fbody

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 05:47 PM

Quote:


you may want to think things through the next time you choose to insult someone who probably has 100 times more experience and dedication to engine building and motorsports in general.





Heck ya. Lay the smack down.
Posted By: BradH

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 05:48 PM

Quote:


... everyone else here must be stupid or inept.



Crap, now I've got to figure out if I fall into the "stupid" or "inept" category...
Posted By: B3RE

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 06:00 PM

Quote:

Seems to me, except for the few high end builds that it'd be cheaper for a race motor to have the guides possibly serviced after several hundred passes the to try & re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Heck we're already ahead with the factory "shaft" design.


If it was just a matter of guides, you might have a point. It's not trying to re-invent the wheel, it's putting the wheel at the right place. We are ahead with the more stable shaft design, but that all goes out the window if the valvetrain is in chaos because of incorrect geometry.
Posted By: B3RE

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 06:18 PM

Quote:


Quote:


I guess I need a keyboard that has a "tone" key so I am not interpreted as being a jerk. That is not my intention and is, in fact, more of a emphatic plea to please, for the sake of your motor, think about this stuff.




I don't post here very often but I do read many of the posts nonetheless. You come off as a real jackazz know it all most of the time to push your own agenda to sell your products.
I don't need a "tone" key because I have a tendency to speak what's on my mind and if I offend someone, it's usually my intention to do so, just like it is yours.
You seem to think you're the only person on this entire site that understands rocker arm geometry and the math to go along with it. Sorry buddy, you'd be dead wrong on that. You seem to have this natural gift, or propensity if you will, of coming off as holier than thou, thinking everyone else here must be stupid or inept.
The fact of the matter is that there are very few, if any, rocker arm components that are truly perfect out of the box that will work perfectly for every situation. I've been making tapered and offset tapered shims for many years to correct those issues when they don't fall into acceptable standards. The key here is what is deemed "acceptable" for the application. Now keep in mind I've probably only installed fewer than 100 sets of HS rocker arms, but you know what, none of them have shown to be "unacceptable" in geometry and none of those sets if corrected would've amounted to a hill of beans in better longevity, strength or valve train stability. Perhaps that's why those rockers are so highly regarded by most.
Lastly, if you have a point to make, perhaps you could show people how you went about correcting the geometry on those HS rockers for a given situation instead of implying that someone promotes only because they may sell them or make a profit by selling them. I sell all of the major brands of rocker arms, so I have no agenda whatsoever other than to tell you, you may want to think things through the next time you choose to insult someone who probably has 100 times more experience and dedication to engine building and motorsports in general.




Why is it every time you have a disagreement with me, the name calling starts?
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 06:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:


... everyone else here must be stupid or inept.



Crap, now I've got to figure out if I fall into the "stupid" or "inept" category...




Hey Brad, don't worry, there was a third and forth option there I didn't bother to list, so you don't fall in either of the ones I did list.
Posted By: B3RE

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 06:45 PM

Quote:

So after all of this discussion I am wondering . I purchased the "limited edition" Bushed Harland rockers from Mancini racing to go on my mild street build 440 with 440 Source heads.I am planning on putting the motor in this winter. Did I make a mistake?

Mike


On a mild street build, I think you would have been better off with stockers.
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 06:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Quote:


I guess I need a keyboard that has a "tone" key so I am not interpreted as being a jerk. That is not my intention and is, in fact, more of a emphatic plea to please, for the sake of your motor, think about this stuff.




I don't post here very often but I do read many of the posts nonetheless. You come off as a real jackazz know it all most of the time to push your own agenda to sell your products.
I don't need a "tone" key because I have a tendency to speak what's on my mind and if I offend someone, it's usually my intention to do so, just like it is yours.
You seem to think you're the only person on this entire site that understands rocker arm geometry and the math to go along with it. Sorry buddy, you'd be dead wrong on that. You seem to have this natural gift, or propensity if you will, of coming off as holier than thou, thinking everyone else here must be stupid or inept.
The fact of the matter is that there are very few, if any, rocker arm components that are truly perfect out of the box that will work perfectly for every situation. I've been making tapered and offset tapered shims for many years to correct those issues when they don't fall into acceptable standards. The key here is what is deemed "acceptable" for the application. Now keep in mind I've probably only installed fewer than 100 sets of HS rocker arms, but you know what, none of them have shown to be "unacceptable" in geometry and none of those sets if corrected would've amounted to a hill of beans in better longevity, strength or valve train stability. Perhaps that's why those rockers are so highly regarded by most.
Lastly, if you have a point to make, perhaps you could show people how you went about correcting the geometry on those HS rockers for a given situation instead of implying that someone promotes only because they may sell them or make a profit by selling them. I sell all of the major brands of rocker arms, so I have no agenda whatsoever other than to tell you, you may want to think things through the next time you choose to insult someone who probably has 100 times more experience and dedication to engine building and motorsports in general.




Why is it every time you have a disagreement with me, the name calling starts?




Try to focus on the bigger picture and put it all in context. You're the guy that claims to offer free advice, right? Where is it?
Is the extent of your free advice to tell everyone to send you their measurements and you can correct their geometry, because it sure looks that way. That way you can sell your product here instead of on Craigslist. Is your only reason for being here to sell your product, because it certainly seems that way.
In the end you may have some valid information, but it's quite clear you're not actually ready to share any of it other than to tell everyone the Mopar rocker geometry is all messed up and has to be corrected. Lastly, I don't recall actually calling you a name you didn't like in the past. Sorry, that's my mistake, I call it like I see it.
Posted By: B3RE

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 09:09 PM

Quote:


Try to focus on the bigger picture and put it all in context. You're the guy that claims to offer free advice, right? Where is it?
Is the extent of your free advice to tell everyone to send you their measurements and you can correct their geometry, because it sure looks that way. That way you can sell your product here instead of on Craigslist. Is your only reason for being here to sell your product, because it certainly seems that way.
In the end you may have some valid information, but it's quite clear you're not actually ready to share any of it other than to tell everyone the Mopar rocker geometry is all messed up and has to be corrected. Lastly, I don't recall actually calling you a name you didn't like in the past. Sorry, that's my mistake, I call it like I see it.



Did I say anything about a product in this thread? If you are referring to another thread, I'd be willing to bet a search of your posts would show you promoting yourself as well. So would just about every other member that has a business. BTW, the other thread you refer to was by request by some of your fellow members.

Before this thread, I hadn't posted for quite some time, although like you, I have been reading many of them. I didn't try to discourage the OP from buying HS rockers, but when I saw information that I didn't agree with, I spoke up, just like you and other members do.

When I asked if he was a dealer or profited in some kind of way, it was because a businessman will promote the products he manufactures and/or sells in order to stay in business. There is nothing wrong with that, but you have to be aware of any biases. BTW, he didn't confirm or deny that status, just became offended thinking I insinuated he was ripping off Moparts members. I was not and I apologized for making him think that I was.

Then you came along and decided you needed to attack me and call me names and make assumptions that you know more about me than I know about myself. I purposely don't tell a lot about myself because I want people to think about what I am saying, and not about who they think I am. I certainly don't need any help being stereotyped.

If I come across as a know it all, I can assure you I do not know it all. I am however passionate about valvetrain geometry and chose to specialize in it because it is so important and few truly understand it (and the ones who do ain't talkin').
If I come across as holier than thou, maybe I'm an ordained minister. You never know. JK

As far as free advice, everything I have tried to explain on here has been free and I know a lot of members have benefitted from it. Outside of showing up on every members doorstep and doing a demonstration of correct valvetrain geometry, I don't know what you want me to offer. I suppose I could buy everyone a couple manufacturing machines, tooling, fixturing, and materials, give them the formulas and a brand spanking new calculator, and tell them to go to town. Of course, it would have to all be free.

As far as my presence here goes, I am not just here to sell parts as you insinuate. I just don't voice my opinions on many other topics(some have an opinion on everything), because I choose to do that in the area I specialize. My choice. I still try to learn as much as I can from those who are more knowledgeable in other areas.

And finally, I also call it like I see it, but I don't call people as I see them, unless I have something nice to say. In all sincerity Dan, Have a pleasant day!
Posted By: Hemi Allstate

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 09:35 PM


Hello Mike,
Speaking for myself not fellow members, I would find it very helpful to SEE charts, video, dyno results, test runs, or spin tron data helping me understand the improvements that you are offering through your math, and products.
I know that for me if a product provides expected HP results, and longevity, that is all I am wanting for my $. Given that, the HS rockers would fill my needs.
Please provide some illustration,or other visual aids, to help educate me as to the benefits of your help/products.
Thanks,
Mark
Posted By: 80fbody

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 09:39 PM

Just saying "few truly understand" makes you a d**chebag in my book. You've not had one piece of good advice on any post that would help the OP or even a small time guy like myself.
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 10:27 PM

It appears the someone is trying to create a mystic/voodoo art out of checking the "rollpath" & "side clearance" of a given rocker assembly?!?!? We could call it "creating your own niche".

Any further than that we're talking modifications to the rocker body to change the rocker rail axis, either away from or closer to the crankshaft centerline, moving the start/stop of the "rollpath" or the angle that it is in relation to the crankshaft as delivered???

Having taken YEARS of calculus and trig., I'm pretty familiar with a 3 space/dimension view of things.

Care to elaborate as to the depth that you correct any alleged faults??

This is info that would need to be discussed prior to any arrangement of work performed anyways. So, it's in your best interest to share now.
Posted By: BradH

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 10:53 PM

Quote:

Care to elaborate as to the depth that you correct any alleged faults??

This is info that would need to be discussed prior to any arrangement of work performed anyways.



FWIW, some of what you're asking about may be shown in his parts advertisement here: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post7923218

Posted By: BradH

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/06/14 10:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


... everyone else here must be stupid or inept.



Crap, now I've got to figure out if I fall into the "stupid" or "inept" category...




Hey Brad, don't worry, there was a third and forth option there I didn't bother to list, so you don't fall in either of the ones I did list.



Oh, you must mean:
#3 - Moparts keyboard junkie w/o a running Mopar for over 3 years
#4 - Anal-retentive drag tech-o-phile w/o a timeslip to his name for over 3 years

Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/07/14 03:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Care to elaborate as to the depth that you correct any alleged faults??

This is info that would need to be discussed prior to any arrangement of work performed anyways.



FWIW, some of what you're asking about may be shown in his parts advertisement here: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post7923218






OK, Thanks.
Very interesting product.
Posted By: Wedge7070

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/09/14 10:33 PM

Oh my all this bantering....Some of us just want a simple yes or no with validated reasoning. As I as well have the Mancini H/S bushed rockers for my 431 stroker with Mopar aluminum heads (P5153524) with a Mopar .528 solid cam. So are these rockers a good choice?
Thank you.
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/09/14 10:55 PM

Quote:

Oh my all this bantering....Some of us just want a simple yes or no with validated reasoning. As I as well have the Mancini H/S bushed rockers for my 431 stroker with Mopar aluminum heads (P5153524) with a Mopar .528 solid cam. So are these rockers a good choice?
Thank you.




More banter for you. You have the Mancini "UNBUSHED" rockers. For your combo they should be okay.
Posted By: 80fbody

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/09/14 10:59 PM

I have a bud that put them on a 440/6pak recently. He's was very happy with the quality for the money. They fit great with the 906 heads. I wouldn't hesitate to run them.
Posted By: 493_DART

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/11/14 07:43 AM

i run the Harlands....no problems after 3 seasons...

heres an interesting pic---Harlands and Cranes =






I also ran a USED set of DOVE blue rockers for 2 or 3 years with zero problems. And a set of Isky ol school iron rockers with no probs.

I dont know Jack--but I check ALL my stuff when Im building...and I have never had a major failure. Were my rockers off on the ratio ?? probably..who cares ? i race brackets .
Posted By: JACK1440

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/11/14 03:23 PM

Love the comparison picture. I never realized the difference. My experience was this. I started with the ductile rockers about 20 years ago. Went to the full roller HS and saw '60 improvements. Ran them for about 8 years with different style cams eventually being a roller. They started to break around the shaft and when the 3rd one broke I pulled them off. I think they were just getting tired. Well budget kept me from buying another set so, I bought the crane golds and have had zero problems. The roller fulcrum is definitely nice but, all depends on your wallet.
Posted By: Wedge7070

Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed - 01/24/14 10:16 PM

I took my Mancini " Harland Sharps" out of the box......the axle for roller tip is crudely peened over....not sure how long that will last. I will upload a picture soon. Starting to think real Harland Sharps S70015K or comp pro magnums 1621-16
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