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46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. #1490119 08/25/13 02:32 AM 08/25/13 02:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	I dug into a friend's 46rh today. The 165,000 mile truck is a recent low-buck purchase that would not move in any gear. No unusual sounds. He pulled the transmission, drained it, and did a thorough cleaning before bringing it over. He said the pan was full of thick nasty stuff. The first thing I noticed is that there is a heavy varnish on everything. The second thing was that the fluid was not red. In fact, it looked about like relatively clean engine oil. The fluid in the servos was slightly pinker than the rest. The fluid does not smell burned. After tearing it down, I found no broken parts. Nothing was burned. A few of the bearings are worn as was the thrust bearing for the rear planetary. All the friction surfaces look serviceable. The filter, however, was absolutely disgusting. The bottom of the drums were caked with garbage. In fact, most things are caked with the stuff. There are signs of rust on many of the parts. The ends of the pinions for the planetary gears are especially nasty. I did notice slight pitting on the gear and rotor for the pump. Those parts will be replaced. He has had the converter rebuilt with an upgraded clutch and tighter pitch to better suit the stock Cummins. Any idea what the culprit might have been? All I can think of is improper lube and a horribly clogged filter. The fluid and varnish can be seen in this pic: 7826425-IMAG0961-1.jpg (159 downloads) We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490120 08/25/13 02:42 AM 08/25/13 02:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA Kern Dog Striving for excellence
Kern Dog Striving for excellence Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA	Those run the ATF-4, right? A mechanic pal told me that there was a little known issue of water contamination in thr trucks. The A/C drain is just above the trans dipstick and if the dipstick seal is compromised, the A/C condensation migrates into the trans. That could be the cause of the rusty areas inside. I'm sure that water mixed with ATF would result in a sludge of some sort.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490121 08/25/13 03:10 AM 08/25/13 03:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,501 Gainesville,FL G goldmember master
goldmember master G Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,501 Gainesville,FL	Check the trans cooler for blockage,if unsure just bypass and install a good cooler. Hard to say from here but converter clutch failure is a problem that often kills a fresh rebuild.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: goldmember] #1490122 08/25/13 03:25 AM 08/25/13 03:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	All the cooler lines are getting a good flush after seeing the guts of this thing. I suspected converter clutch failure due to the amount of gunk despite having good friction materials. However, I wasn't there when the rebuilder cut the converter open. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490123 08/25/13 03:46 AM 08/25/13 03:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,501 Gainesville,FL G goldmember master
goldmember master G Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,501 Gainesville,FL	Sounds like you were not there when the pan was cleaned either? Build it and see that the converter is right along with the lines and Cooler and you'll be ok.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: goldmember] #1490124 08/25/13 08:10 AM 08/25/13 08:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,062 Amherst,NY challengermike super stock
challengermike super stock Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,062 Amherst,NY	To me it looks like it just got hot from sitting and idling, Remember it doesn't pump in park and seeing it's a diesel it probably did that a lot. I would install a manual valve that make's pump in park, Many trans suppliers sell them.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: challengermike] #1490125 08/25/13 09:23 AM 08/25/13 09:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,790 Greer, SC TooMany62s top fuel
TooMany62s top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,790 Greer, SC	Rust inside of trans? Flood car?

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: TooMany62s] #1490126 08/25/13 09:40 AM 08/25/13 09:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	I have seen fluid like that before, burned up TCC if I recall correct. The rust on parts doesn't sound good, thats really odd.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: gdonovan] #1490127 08/25/13 10:11 AM 08/25/13 10:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours Supercuda About to go away
Supercuda About to go away Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours	HOw long had it been sitting without being moved? Sounds like that's where the rust came from to me. They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: Supercuda] #1490128 08/25/13 10:50 AM 08/25/13 10:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	I think it sat for a while after the transmission quit. The front drum has minor surface rust on the band contact surface. You can see it in the attached pic. All I did was tear the transmission down. I was not around when he dropped the pan and cleaned the outside of the transmission. 7826592-IMAG0962-1.jpg (92 downloads) We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: challengermike] #1490129 08/25/13 12:10 PM 08/25/13 12:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A.	Quote: To me it looks like it just got hot from sitting and idling, Remember it doesn't pump in park and seeing it's a diesel it probably did that a lot. I would install a manual valve that make's pump in park, Many trans suppliers sell them. Mike its a 46rh , they didn't put those behinds the Cummins , it's a gasser trans. They do pump in park , but it's not the same volume like it does in neutral.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490130 08/25/13 12:11 PM 08/25/13 12:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A.	Could have had engine oil in it but it definitely looks like it got some water in there .

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: JohnRR] #1490131 08/25/13 12:19 PM 08/25/13 12:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	Quote: Quote: To me it looks like it just got hot from sitting and idling, Remember it doesn't pump in park and seeing it's a diesel it probably did that a lot. I would install a manual valve that make's pump in park, Many trans suppliers sell them. Mike its a 46rh , they didn't put those behinds the Cummins , it's a gasser trans. They do pump in park , but it's not the same volume like it does in neutral. My FSM calls the trans a 46rh but it did come out of a Cummins. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490132 08/25/13 01:21 PM 08/25/13 01:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: My FSM calls the trans a 46rh but it did come out of a Cummins. 46RH was used behind the small blocks, should be a 48RH. The "8" indicates higher torque capacity.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: gdonovan] #1490133 08/25/13 01:34 PM 08/25/13 01:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	Either way, it's not pretty. Unless it's fluid related I don't see any reason for the failure. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: gdonovan] #1490134 08/25/13 02:21 PM 08/25/13 02:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Quote: My FSM calls the trans a 46rh but it did come out of a Cummins. 46RH was used behind the small blocks, should be a 48RH. The "8" indicates higher torque capacity. 47RH, I dodn't think they were 48 till the release of the HP common rail motors . My bad and missing that this was behind a cummins .

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: Kern Dog] #1490135 08/25/13 04:57 PM 08/25/13 04:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,784 Rio Linda, CA John_Kunkel Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,784 Rio Linda, CA	Quote: A mechanic pal told me that there was a little known issue of water contamination in thr trucks. The A/C drain is just above the trans dipstick and if the dipstick seal is compromised, the A/C condensation migrates into the trans. That could be the cause of the rusty areas inside. I'm sure that water mixed with ATF would result in a sludge of some sort. The fluid FULL level is well above the dipstick seal so any leakage would be fluid coming out, not water leaking in. Since most cooling systems are an anti-freeze mix it's usually not wet enough to cause rust unless it's nearly pure water; rust can be caused by emersion in water (floods or off-road activity) or the fluid not getting up to full temperature (condensation). Either will cause the fluid to gum up. The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: John_Kunkel] #1490136 08/26/13 03:34 PM 08/26/13 03:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376 D dogdays I Live Here
dogdays I Live Here D Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376	VARNISH! This simple word is on every lubrication engineer's mind these days. It plugs up passages, gums up sliding parts, and generally makes a mess. Varnish is actually very tiny soft particulate that is caused by breakdown of the oil. Water seems to be one of the culprits in forming varnish. Varnish can actually be filtered out of a lubricant by use of special filters that have a special molecular attraction for the varnish. Electrostatic precipitators are also being used. Varnish is deposited at lower temperatures. Higher temperatures keep the varnish moving with the oil. At my work we are having problems with varnish causing hydraulic valves to stick. When the spring is supposed to push the shuttle in one direction the shuttle doesn't move and the hydraulic system doesn't work. If clearances are small, it doesn't take a very thick film to stop the valve. R.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: dogdays] #1490137 08/26/13 06:20 PM 08/26/13 06:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	Getting that varnish out of there is going to be quite a chore. It's so thick that I had to fight the servos to get them apart after the snap rings were removed. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490138 08/26/13 06:57 PM 08/26/13 06:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,062 Amherst,NY challengermike super stock
challengermike super stock Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,062 Amherst,NY	Mineral spirits works ok for removing it. The hot tank at work doesn't take it off but it will soften it up. Sometimes we use a combo of the hot tank to make it soft and then brush it with the mineral spirits to get it off.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490139 08/27/13 12:16 AM 08/27/13 12:16 AM
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,188 aZLiViN J J_BODY I Live Here
J_BODY I Live Here J Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,188 aZLiViN	The heat exchanger can be cleaned out with some success, but the air to air cooler needs to be changed. I've seen some messed up trannys back in the day, but none with a complete varnishing like that! I'd bet that their was more than a couple "mechanic in a can" additives thrown in that.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: J_BODY] #1490140 08/27/13 01:28 AM 08/27/13 01:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	My raggedy old parts washer hasn't been used in 14 years. We resurrected it for this job. Greg (owner of the transmission) had an old 5 gallon can of kerosene that he donated to the cause. A good scrubbing got the planetary gear sets looking great. Now we need to do something about that valve body. I'm afraid to open the OD unit. Is the goo in the splines a good indication of what we're going to find or did the tight fit keep most of the solids out? Look at the servo spring in the background. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: dogdays] #1490141 08/27/13 09:42 AM 08/27/13 09:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 8,162 USA 3 360view Moparts resident spammer
360view Moparts resident spammer 3 Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 8,162 USA	My memory is a bit fuzzy but i think i remember that about ten to fifteen years ago some automatic trans Diesel Ram owners were trying Mobil One Syn 5w-20 engine oil instead of ATF+2 I think the Diesel Trans forum in Canada had a number of posts on this Perhaps some prior owner tried non synthetic 5w-20 engine oil in that 46/47 RH ? Castrol Superclean is an impressive degreaser but one of the two formulations will attack aluminum if left on too long. Grease Lightning detergent spray is also impressive on a few cruddy varnishes i have used it on, but be careful about breathing the vapor.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: 360view] #1490142 08/27/13 09:50 AM 08/27/13 09:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	The kerosene is doing a fine job. It may take a little longer than other cleaners but it's a known entity with no hidden surprises. We did find it a bit disturbing that the parts laying on the table actually stuck. Some of the snap rings had to be tapped sideways to break the bond. That servo spring in the second photo didn't want to be moved either. When pulled, it leaned over to the side before popping free. It's just nasty. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490143 08/27/13 12:22 PM 08/27/13 12:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376 D dogdays I Live Here
dogdays I Live Here D Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376	Carb cleaner, the stuff in a spray can, plus a little rubbing, will get varnish off quicker. R.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: dogdays] #1490144 08/27/13 12:53 PM 08/27/13 12:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	Quote: Carb cleaner, the stuff in a spray can, plus a little rubbing, will get varnish off quicker. R. He's bringing over a can of Berrymans to dip the smaller parts. It's his transmission so he's supplying the stuff and doing the scrubbing. I'm supplying the place to do it and the assembly labor. He can scrub to his heart's content. He's a bit particular about things. With his obsessive background in chemistry and tight wallet I only make suggestions. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490145 08/27/13 01:07 PM 08/27/13 01:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A.	The current Berrymans stuff in the paint can isn't as good as it used to be, he'll be better off with spray cans of gunk

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: JohnRR] #1490146 08/27/13 01:16 PM 08/27/13 01:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,798 McGregor,Iowa 52157 5 500ciDuster top fuel
500ciDuster top fuel 5 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,798 McGregor,Iowa 52157	I've seen that sometimes in the older lockup convertor 3 speed trannys, they kinda had a weird oder but didn't smell burnt. Mitch

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490147 08/27/13 01:16 PM 08/27/13 01:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,168 Vancouver, WA MoparMarq super stock
MoparMarq super stock Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,168 Vancouver, WA	Quote: I'm afraid to open the OD unit. Is the goo in the splines a good indication of what we're going to find or did the tight fit keep most of the solids out? Is that damage on the front part of the drum? (Left side) What is that?

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: MoparMarq] #1490148 08/27/13 03:03 PM 08/27/13 03:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376 D dogdays I Live Here
dogdays I Live Here D Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376	Going back to my varnish post, the varnish in the oil is soft particulate that is much smaller than any clearance in the transmission. If transmission fluid got in there, the varnish is in there too. And if it's colder, it will have deposited a thicker layer. In my experience the carb cleaner in a bucket is inferior to any cheap WalMart carb cleaner in a spray can, for cleaning varnish off the inside of a block or transmission. You'll see what works. R.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: MoparMarq] #1490149 08/27/13 03:17 PM 08/27/13 03:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	Quote: Is that damage on the front part of the drum? (Left side) What is that? Nope! No damage. That's goo. Thick sticky goo. Look at the pics again. The parts had been sitting on the bench for more than 24 hours. Notice the lack of fluid dripping on the table? There was a small bit that came out of the valve body but not as much as you'd expect. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490150 08/27/13 03:20 PM 08/27/13 03:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours Supercuda About to go away
Supercuda About to go away Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours	One wonders if he's got a trans cooler that bypasses the radiator cooler. They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490151 08/27/13 04:21 PM 08/27/13 04:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,784 Rio Linda, CA John_Kunkel Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,784 Rio Linda, CA	Quote: He's bringing over a can of Berrymans to dip the smaller parts. That's the only thing that I've found that will really clean varnished parts. Hate the smell. The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: John_Kunkel] #1490152 08/28/13 01:18 AM 08/28/13 01:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	This isn't fluid mixing. This is fluid abuse. Best we can figure is that a previous owner used crappy fluid and never changed it. I got the overdrive section disassembled in the press. After it was in pieces on the bench I had to pry the spring away from the other parts. It was glued together with this goo. The Berryman's stuff helped free up the planetary gears more than the kerosene. The OD planetary set will need serious attention before getting a bath. So, what do you think? Mission Impossible? We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490153 08/28/13 02:46 AM 08/28/13 02:46 AM
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,188 aZLiViN J J_BODY I Live Here
J_BODY I Live Here J Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,188 aZLiViN	forget my last post.... replace BOTH COOLERS!!!

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: J_BODY] #1490154 08/28/13 11:44 AM 08/28/13 11:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	No doubt! We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: feets] #1490155 08/29/13 10:36 AM 08/29/13 10:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets OP Senior Management
feets OP Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	The valve body makes a great repository for sticky nasty goo. We worked on it until 11 last night. The valve body pieces and front pump housing are the only things needing to be defunked. I gave him a key to the shop so he can get over there and mess with it while I'm at work. With luck it'll start going back together tomorrow. 7831834-IMAG0982-1.jpg (32 downloads) We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. [Re: Supercuda] #1490156 08/29/13 01:19 PM 08/29/13 01:19 PM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 4,920 Joplin, MO USA Robbins master
Robbins master Joined: May 2004 Posts: 4,920 Joplin, MO USA	Quote: One wonders if he's got a trans cooler that bypasses the radiator cooler. Wow, could that really be the problem? That thing looks like oil or something was put in it. Moparlee

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