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46rh is dead. It's ugly in there.

Posted By: feets

46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 06:32 AM

I dug into a friend's 46rh today. The 165,000 mile truck is a recent low-buck purchase that would not move in any gear. No unusual sounds. He pulled the transmission, drained it, and did a thorough cleaning before bringing it over. He said the pan was full of thick nasty stuff.

The first thing I noticed is that there is a heavy varnish on everything. The second thing was that the fluid was not red. In fact, it looked about like relatively clean engine oil. The fluid in the servos was slightly pinker than the rest. The fluid does not smell burned.

After tearing it down, I found no broken parts. Nothing was burned. A few of the bearings are worn as was the thrust bearing for the rear planetary. All the friction surfaces look serviceable. The filter, however, was absolutely disgusting.
The bottom of the drums were caked with garbage. In fact, most things are caked with the stuff. There are signs of rust on many of the parts. The ends of the pinions for the planetary gears are especially nasty.

I did notice slight pitting on the gear and rotor for the pump. Those parts will be replaced.

He has had the converter rebuilt with an upgraded clutch and tighter pitch to better suit the stock Cummins.

Any idea what the culprit might have been? All I can think of is improper lube and a horribly clogged filter.

The fluid and varnish can be seen in this pic:

Attached picture 7826425-IMAG0961-1.jpg
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 06:42 AM

Those run the ATF-4, right?
A mechanic pal told me that there was a little known issue of water contamination in thr trucks. The A/C drain is just above the trans dipstick and if the dipstick seal is compromised, the A/C condensation migrates into the trans. That could be the cause of the rusty areas inside. I'm sure that water mixed with ATF would result in a sludge of some sort.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 07:10 AM

Check the trans cooler for blockage,if unsure just bypass and install a good cooler. Hard to say from here but converter clutch failure is a problem that often kills a fresh rebuild.
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 07:25 AM

All the cooler lines are getting a good flush after seeing the guts of this thing.

I suspected converter clutch failure due to the amount of gunk despite having good friction materials. However, I wasn't there when the rebuilder cut the converter open.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 07:46 AM

Sounds like you were not there when the pan was cleaned either? Build it and see that the converter is right along with the lines and Cooler and you'll be ok.
Posted By: challengermike

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 12:10 PM

To me it looks like it just got hot from sitting and idling, Remember it doesn't pump in park and seeing it's a diesel it probably did that a lot. I would install a manual valve that make's pump in park, Many trans suppliers sell them.
Posted By: TooMany62s

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 01:23 PM

Rust inside of trans? Flood car?
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 01:40 PM

I have seen fluid like that before, burned up TCC if I recall correct. The rust on parts doesn't sound good, thats really odd.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 02:11 PM

HOw long had it been sitting without being moved?

Sounds like that's where the rust came from to me.
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 02:50 PM

I think it sat for a while after the transmission quit. The front drum has minor surface rust on the band contact surface. You can see it in the attached pic.

All I did was tear the transmission down. I was not around when he dropped the pan and cleaned the outside of the transmission.

Attached picture 7826592-IMAG0962-1.jpg
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 04:10 PM

Quote:

To me it looks like it just got hot from sitting and idling, Remember it doesn't pump in park and seeing it's a diesel it probably did that a lot. I would install a manual valve that make's pump in park, Many trans suppliers sell them.




Mike its a 46rh , they didn't put those behinds the Cummins , it's a gasser trans.

They do pump in park , but it's not the same volume like it does in neutral.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 04:11 PM

Could have had engine oil in it but it definitely looks like it got some water in there .
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 04:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

To me it looks like it just got hot from sitting and idling, Remember it doesn't pump in park and seeing it's a diesel it probably did that a lot. I would install a manual valve that make's pump in park, Many trans suppliers sell them.




Mike its a 46rh , they didn't put those behinds the Cummins , it's a gasser trans.

They do pump in park , but it's not the same volume like it does in neutral.




My FSM calls the trans a 46rh but it did come out of a Cummins.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 05:21 PM

Quote:



My FSM calls the trans a 46rh but it did come out of a Cummins.




46RH was used behind the small blocks, should be a 48RH.

The "8" indicates higher torque capacity.
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 05:34 PM

Either way, it's not pretty. Unless it's fluid related I don't see any reason for the failure.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 06:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:



My FSM calls the trans a 46rh but it did come out of a Cummins.




46RH was used behind the small blocks, should be a 48RH.

The "8" indicates higher torque capacity.




47RH, I dodn't think they were 48 till the release of the HP common rail motors .

My bad and missing that this was behind a cummins .
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/25/13 08:57 PM

Quote:


A mechanic pal told me that there was a little known issue of water contamination in thr trucks. The A/C drain is just above the trans dipstick and if the dipstick seal is compromised, the A/C condensation migrates into the trans. That could be the cause of the rusty areas inside. I'm sure that water mixed with ATF would result in a sludge of some sort.




The fluid FULL level is well above the dipstick seal so any leakage would be fluid coming out, not water leaking in.

Since most cooling systems are an anti-freeze mix it's usually not wet enough to cause rust unless it's nearly pure water; rust can be caused by emersion in water (floods or off-road activity) or the fluid not getting up to full temperature (condensation). Either will cause the fluid to gum up.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/26/13 07:34 PM

VARNISH!
This simple word is on every lubrication engineer's mind these days. It plugs up passages, gums up sliding parts, and generally makes a mess.
Varnish is actually very tiny soft particulate that is caused by breakdown of the oil. Water seems to be one of the culprits in forming varnish.
Varnish can actually be filtered out of a lubricant by use of special filters that have a special molecular attraction for the varnish. Electrostatic precipitators are also being used.

Varnish is deposited at lower temperatures. Higher temperatures keep the varnish moving with the oil.

At my work we are having problems with varnish causing hydraulic valves to stick. When the spring is supposed to push the shuttle in one direction the shuttle doesn't move and the hydraulic system doesn't work. If clearances are small, it doesn't take a very thick film to stop the valve.

R.
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/26/13 10:20 PM

Getting that varnish out of there is going to be quite a chore.
It's so thick that I had to fight the servos to get them apart after the snap rings were removed.
Posted By: challengermike

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/26/13 10:57 PM

Mineral spirits works ok for removing it. The hot tank at work doesn't take it off but it will soften it up. Sometimes we use a combo of the hot tank to make it soft and then brush it with the mineral spirits to get it off.
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 04:16 AM

The heat exchanger can be cleaned out with some success, but the air to air cooler needs to be changed. I've seen some messed up trannys back in the day, but none with a complete varnishing like that! I'd bet that their was more than a couple "mechanic in a can" additives thrown in that.
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 05:28 AM

My raggedy old parts washer hasn't been used in 14 years. We resurrected it for this job. Greg (owner of the transmission) had an old 5 gallon can of kerosene that he donated to the cause.
A good scrubbing got the planetary gear sets looking great. Now we need to do something about that valve body.







I'm afraid to open the OD unit. Is the goo in the splines a good indication of what we're going to find or did the tight fit keep most of the solids out?



Look at the servo spring in the background.
Posted By: 360view

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 01:42 PM

My memory is a bit fuzzy but i think i remember that about ten to fifteen years ago some automatic trans Diesel Ram owners were trying Mobil One Syn 5w-20 engine oil instead of ATF+2

I think the Diesel Trans forum in Canada had a number of posts on this

Perhaps some prior owner tried non synthetic 5w-20 engine oil in that 46/47 RH ?

Castrol Superclean is an impressive degreaser but one of the two formulations will attack aluminum if left on too long.

Grease Lightning detergent spray is also impressive on a few cruddy varnishes i have used it on, but be careful about breathing the vapor.
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 01:50 PM

The kerosene is doing a fine job. It may take a little longer than other cleaners but it's a known entity with no hidden surprises.

We did find it a bit disturbing that the parts laying on the table actually stuck. Some of the snap rings had to be tapped sideways to break the bond. That servo spring in the second photo didn't want to be moved either. When pulled, it leaned over to the side before popping free.

It's just nasty.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 04:22 PM

Carb cleaner, the stuff in a spray can, plus a little rubbing, will get varnish off quicker.

R.
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 04:53 PM

Quote:

Carb cleaner, the stuff in a spray can, plus a little rubbing, will get varnish off quicker.

R.




He's bringing over a can of Berrymans to dip the smaller parts.
It's his transmission so he's supplying the stuff and doing the scrubbing. I'm supplying the place to do it and the assembly labor.
He can scrub to his heart's content.

He's a bit particular about things. With his obsessive background in chemistry and tight wallet I only make suggestions.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 05:07 PM

The current Berrymans stuff in the paint can isn't as good as it used to be, he'll be better off with spray cans of gunk
Posted By: 500ciDuster

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 05:16 PM

I've seen that sometimes in the older lockup convertor 3 speed trannys, they kinda had a weird oder but didn't smell burnt.

Mitch
Posted By: MoparMarq

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 05:16 PM

Quote:

I'm afraid to open the OD unit. Is the goo in the splines a good indication of what we're going to find or did the tight fit keep most of the solids out?







Is that damage on the front part of the drum? (Left side) What is that?
Posted By: dogdays

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 07:03 PM

Going back to my varnish post, the varnish in the oil is soft particulate that is much smaller than any clearance in the transmission. If transmission fluid got in there, the varnish is in there too. And if it's colder, it will have deposited a thicker layer.

In my experience the carb cleaner in a bucket is inferior to any cheap WalMart carb cleaner in a spray can, for cleaning varnish off the inside of a block or transmission. You'll see what works.

R.
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 07:17 PM

Quote:

Is that damage on the front part of the drum? (Left side) What is that?




Nope! No damage. That's goo. Thick sticky goo.


Look at the pics again. The parts had been sitting on the bench for more than 24 hours. Notice the lack of fluid dripping on the table?
There was a small bit that came out of the valve body but not as much as you'd expect.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 07:20 PM

One wonders if he's got a trans cooler that bypasses the radiator cooler.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/27/13 08:21 PM

Quote:


He's bringing over a can of Berrymans to dip the smaller parts.





That's the only thing that I've found that will really clean varnished parts. Hate the smell.
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/28/13 05:18 AM

This isn't fluid mixing. This is fluid abuse.
Best we can figure is that a previous owner used crappy fluid and never changed it.

I got the overdrive section disassembled in the press. After it was in pieces on the bench I had to pry the spring away from the other parts. It was glued together with this goo.

The Berryman's stuff helped free up the planetary gears more than the kerosene. The OD planetary set will need serious attention before getting a bath.


So, what do you think?

Mission Impossible?

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/28/13 06:46 AM

forget my last post.... replace BOTH COOLERS!!!
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/28/13 03:44 PM

No doubt!
Posted By: feets

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/29/13 02:36 PM

The valve body makes a great repository for sticky nasty goo.
We worked on it until 11 last night. The valve body pieces and front pump housing are the only things needing to be defunked. I gave him a key to the shop so he can get over there and mess with it while I'm at work.
With luck it'll start going back together tomorrow.

Attached picture 7831834-IMAG0982-1.jpg
Posted By: Robbins

Re: 46rh is dead. It's ugly in there. - 08/29/13 05:19 PM

Quote:

One wonders if he's got a trans cooler that bypasses the radiator cooler.




Wow, could that really be the problem? That thing looks like oil or something was put in it.
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