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Trouble finding electrolysis source #1009762
06/09/11 01:07 AM
06/09/11 01:07 AM
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Ciscodog Offline OP
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I just replaced the radiator and fans in my Dart. I did the test for electrolysis and it's showing .7 VDC. Here's the kicker - it does it with the battery disconnected too. I've checked everything and I'm at a loss, so maybe someone will have an idea that I haven't thought of yet. Here's the rundown on the car so you know what I'm working with:

- '69 Dart
- Factory items go through factory fuse block
- Aftermarket items go through painless fuse block
- No aftermarket items use chassis ground. All grounds go to #8 wire to battery
- Elec fuel pump
- Elec Water pump
- Elec fans
- MSD 6AL, 8680, and digital multi retard
- NOS progressive controller
- Line lock
- East Coast 1 wire alt

All items going through relays, which were pulled with no change. The MSD was completely disconnected because it has a capacitor - no change. Changed distilled water - voltage returned. Volt meter is registering .1 VDC when I touch probe to the temp sender at the water pump. The .7 VDC reading drops to .4 when I turn the lights on (not runing). I'm going to try a different volt meter tomorrow but I have ZERO reason to doubt my meter because it's not acting odd in any other way. It reads 12.5 on my battery w/car off. The car runs and all systems operate correctly, so no particular component is acting weird. This one has me stumped. Any help would be appreciated - thanks guys.

EDIT - I have a #8 wire going from the battery to a pass-thru in the firewall. Everything under the hood grounds to the stud. Everything under the dash grounds to the stud. So there's a direct line to the battery, and no chassis grounds for aftermarket stuff.

Last edited by Ciscodog; 06/09/11 09:57 AM.
Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009763
06/09/11 01:34 AM
06/09/11 01:34 AM
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Spring Valley ,Ca.
moparsquid Offline
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try a better ground from the starter to the block

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009764
06/09/11 02:29 AM
06/09/11 02:29 AM
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Sunny South Florida
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galvanic action between the dissimilar metals of the engine, with the water in the cooling system acting as the electrolyte is going to give you some stray, ultra low readings. are you losing metal in any of the engine parts? water pump housing showing pitting? if everything else is properly grounded, you might try a sacrificial anode, to help reduce the number, and to fight against corrosion of radiator or engine parts.

Testing for Stray Current in the Cooling System

Another BIG factor in corrosion is stray voltage in the coolant. This causes corrosion even when the coolant is in good condition. If the engine does not have a good ground connection, voltage from the charging system will flow through the coolant to ground, creating and speeding electrolytic corrosion.

One needs a voltmeter (multimeter) with a scale capable of reading in millivolts. (I use those with digital read outs.)

1. Empty the vehicle of coolant and flush with clean water.

2. Fill the cooling system with distilled or demineralized water. (A coolant filled system gives inaccurate readings.)

3. Connect the voltmeter to the battery ground and the positive terminal into the coolant making sure not to touch the metal core or filler neck).

4: With the ignition on and again with the engine running, turn on every component. While you are monitoring the presence of stray voltage in the cooling system, have a fellow worker operate the brake lights, parking, head and high beam lights and everything you can't turn on while you're monitoring your voltmeter.

5. Note any voltage and any increases in voltage and what component increased it.

Your system has failed if you get a reading above 50mV (0.05 volts) The source (s) of the current leakage should be found, as they can destroy a radiator or other components in a short period of time, depending on the level of voltage.

The system is fine if your voltmeter reads below 50mV (0.05 volts) so refill your cooling system with coolant.


"When Tyranny Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty"

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Golden-Arm] #1009765
06/09/11 09:40 AM
06/09/11 09:40 AM
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Quote:

galvanic action between the dissimilar metals of the engine, with the water in the cooling system acting as the electrolyte is going to give you some stray, ultra low readings. are you losing metal in any of the engine parts? water pump housing showing pitting? if everything else is properly grounded, you might try a sacrificial anode, to help reduce the number, and to fight against corrosion of radiator or engine parts.

Testing for Stray Current in the Cooling System

Another BIG factor in corrosion is stray voltage in the coolant. This causes corrosion even when the coolant is in good condition. If the engine does not have a good ground connection, voltage from the charging system will flow through the coolant to ground, creating and speeding electrolytic corrosion.

One needs a voltmeter (multimeter) with a scale capable of reading in millivolts. (I use those with digital read outs.)

1. Empty the vehicle of coolant and flush with clean water.

2. Fill the cooling system with distilled or demineralized water. (A coolant filled system gives inaccurate readings.)

3. Connect the voltmeter to the battery ground and the positive terminal into the coolant making sure not to touch the metal core or filler neck).

4: With the ignition on and again with the engine running, turn on every component. While you are monitoring the presence of stray voltage in the cooling system, have a fellow worker operate the brake lights, parking, head and high beam lights and everything you can't turn on while you're monitoring your voltmeter.

5. Note any voltage and any increases in voltage and what component increased it.

Your system has failed if you get a reading above 50mV (0.05 volts) The source (s) of the current leakage should be found, as they can destroy a radiator or other components in a short period of time, depending on the level of voltage.

The system is fine if your voltmeter reads below 50mV (0.05 volts) so refill your cooling system with coolant.




I've already used this process - that's how I know I have .7 VDC.

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009766
06/09/11 11:59 AM
06/09/11 11:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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I've read publications and heater core manuf. to used .1V 100 mV as the cutoff.

Where have you heard .05V ??

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: autoxcuda] #1009767
06/09/11 04:03 PM
06/09/11 04:03 PM
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My Ron Davis paperwork says zero to .3 VDC is normal with an iron block. Anything above that is b-b-b-bad and will damage the engine and radiator lining in time. How much time? I dunno, but they make it seem like a few hours of run time will do some damage.

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009768
06/09/11 06:40 PM
06/09/11 06:40 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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If there's no actual current leakage I'd get a $15 zinc sacrificial anode added to one of the unused NPT coolant ports & call it good


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009769
06/09/11 08:22 PM
06/09/11 08:22 PM
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Sunny South Florida
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Quote:


I've already used this process - that's how I know I have .7 VDC.




then it seems time to check/install grounds for good connections, and add that sacrificial anode. disimilar metals with a liquid between them, are going to create tiny amounts of electricity. send the strays into an anode.


"When Tyranny Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty"

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Golden-Arm] #1009770
06/10/11 12:39 AM
06/10/11 12:39 AM
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Okay thanks. I asked Dennis at Ron Davis about the anode today, but they seem to think I should keep looking. If I can't find it I'll go to the anode radiator cap. I don't have any spare ports on the radiator, so the cap will have to do it. I'd just like to find the voltage - it's pissing me off not finding it. I bought another volt meter tonight and validated the reading - it's correct.

Oh - and do you guys run a separate ground from the starter bolt? I hadn't heard of that before. I have a motor plate (aluminum) and a mid plate (steel)that is bolted to the frame.

Last edited by Ciscodog; 06/10/11 12:41 AM.
Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009771
06/10/11 01:27 AM
06/10/11 01:27 AM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Check the ph level of your coolant. If it is acidic, it will turn your cooling system into a large single cell battery. .7V as you have discovered. If you are getting that much of a reading with no electrics hooked to the car there's not much else it can be.

Kevin

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Twostick] #1009772
06/10/11 01:44 AM
06/10/11 01:44 AM
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All I'm running is distilled water. I've changed it - twice. No change.

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009773
06/10/11 07:50 AM
06/10/11 07:50 AM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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High school chemistry was a LONG time ago but IIRC pure water ie distilled water would make a better electrolyte than tap water would so you might actually be making it worse. This stuff http://www.fleetguard.com/html/en/products/cooling/coolant/supp_add.html is what I use in my N14 Cummins to keep the cooling system from eating the engine alive. You can get it at any big truck dealer like Kenworth etc.

Kevin

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Twostick] #1009774
06/10/11 11:04 AM
06/10/11 11:04 AM
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Quote:

High school chemistry was a LONG time ago but IIRC pure water ie distilled water would make a better electrolyte than tap water would so you might actually be making it worse. This stuff http://www.fleetguard.com/html/en/products/cooling/coolant/supp_add.html is what I use in my N14 Cummins to keep the cooling system from eating the engine alive. You can get it at any big truck dealer like Kenworth etc.

Kevin




Sounds likely, but is the additive clear? Can't run anything but water at the track any more unless that has changed. It's been a while since I ran the car. I've bookmarked the product - thanks!

Edit - I just read more and it only works with glycol based coolants, so it won't work with just distilled water.

Last edited by Ciscodog; 06/10/11 12:09 PM.
Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Twostick] #1009775
06/10/11 08:24 PM
06/10/11 08:24 PM
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Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Quote:

ago but IIRC pure water ie distilled water would make a better electrolyte than tap water would so you might actually be making it worse.




This is backwards.

Also, putting a sacrificial anode in the radiator will not help your cyl heads if they are aluminum.

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009776
06/10/11 08:37 PM
06/10/11 08:37 PM
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So Cal
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Quote:


Sounds likely, but is the additive clear? Can't run anything but water at the track any more unless that has changed. It's been a while since I ran the car. I've bookmarked the product - thanks!

Edit - I just read more and it only works with glycol based coolants, so it won't work with just distilled water.




Justice Brothers Cooling System Protector is 100% CLEAR. It has supplemental coolant additives (SCA's), neutralizes acids, lubricates water pump, anti rust and corrosion. It contains special metal deviators so the fluid can also act like a ground between dissimilar metals. Very helpful in combating electrolysis.

If you like to reinforce that and reduce some coolant temps add Justice Brothers Super Radiator Cool. It will just the water a bluish color. We have a "just water" rule at our track too; NASCAR sanctioned circle track. Even the NASCAR officated short track nationals "shootout" races. It dries just like water and is not slippery like anti freeze coolant.

This is actually a real well thought out test. Multiple temperature test point locations, outside temperatures noted, etc.

http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0703_turp_cooling_system_additives/test_results.html

"Justice Brothers' Radiator Cooler gave us the lowest temperature during our testing - 177 F - and provided the lowest average temperatures overall when mixed with water alone."

Last edited by autoxcuda; 06/11/11 12:54 AM.
Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009777
06/10/11 09:04 PM
06/10/11 09:04 PM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

High school chemistry was a LONG time ago but IIRC pure water ie distilled water would make a better electrolyte than tap water would so you might actually be making it worse. This stuff http://www.fleetguard.com/html/en/products/cooling/coolant/supp_add.html is what I use in my N14 Cummins to keep the cooling system from eating the engine alive. You can get it at any big truck dealer like Kenworth etc.

Kevin




Sounds likely, but is the additive clear? Can't run anything but water at the track any more unless that has changed. It's been a while since I ran the car. I've bookmarked the product - thanks!

Edit - I just read more and it only works with glycol based coolants, so it won't work with just distilled water.






DCA4 Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA) provides superior engine protection in heavy duty diesel applications where glycol based coolants are used, as well as marine and railroad diesel applications where water is used as the coolant. DCA4 is less toxic and, as a result, is preferred by those concerned about skin sensitivity and coolant spills or disposal. DCA4 contains Nitrite and Molybdate for liner pitting protection and phosphate for acid protection.

Works with just water also.

Don't remember if it is clear or not. I haven't had to add any in ages. Once you get the coolant right on a big engine you just change the pre-charged coolant filter to maintain it. If anything it is likely similar to the above mentioned Justice Bros prod and is clear but with dye added. Is your track rule "water only" or "no antifreeze allowed"? You would still be within the rules if it is the latter.

Kevin

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Twostick] #1009778
06/11/11 12:17 AM
06/11/11 12:17 AM
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Ahh - I quit reading when I saw glycol. It's an illness. Thanks for pointing that out.

I have the t-stat housing that has a radiator cap in it, so I'm going to put an anode in that one too just for kicks until I get this sorted out. I'm not going to let it keep me off the road. The car has been down for 5 years and it's time to get out and run it. The new Ron Davis radiator and Spal fans is awesome - using the Meziere 55 GPM pump too. I haven't had it on the road yet but so far just idling in the heat with no airflow and the thermostat out (just for a test) it won't go over 150. Very happy so far, so I think even with a load and in traffic it should do well.

I'm going to ground the hell out of everything and go from there. I have a good ground system, just missing a starter ground and a radiator ground, so I'll check those boxes and see what it gets me. I'm still baffled by the fact that I have voltage with the battery disconnected and sitting 10 feet away. The only capacitor in the car is the MSD and that was unhooked too.

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009779
06/11/11 01:03 AM
06/11/11 01:03 AM
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UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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This is just a way to funny and confusing post. To many variables... Pickle it or run it. A closed system with no air wont rust.

Last edited by NITROUSN; 06/11/11 01:06 AM.
Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: Ciscodog] #1009780
06/11/11 01:22 AM
06/11/11 01:22 AM
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Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:

.... I'm still baffled by the fact that I have voltage with the battery disconnected and sitting 10 feet away. The only capacitor in the car is the MSD and that was unhooked too.




I believe that is like static electricity built up in the system from the movement of fluid throught the cooling system.

I just went in the garage and checked mine. I run distilled water, Justice Brothers Cooling System Protector, and Justice Brothers Super Radiator Cool. That's it.

New rebuilt motor with 800 miles: aluminum heads, aluminum radiator, aluminum water pump, brass heater core, cast iron block. I went for ride earlier so the fluid temperature was still at 104 degrees per my laser themometer....

76.8 millivolts or .077 volts



New motor and I spent a TON of time and effort cleaning and chipping rust scale out of the block. So the fluid is tiny tiny bit brownish from loose stuff I couldn get out or got loose since startup. Should flush it.

Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source [Re: autoxcuda] #1009781
06/12/11 10:15 AM
06/12/11 10:15 AM
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Thanks for checking that out. .078 is in the acceptable range - mine is WAY out of it. I'll keep plugging away at it. Putting in some anodes and probably that Justice Brothers stuff.

Last edited by Ciscodog; 06/12/11 09:26 PM.






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