Trouble finding electrolysis source
#1009762
06/09/11 01:07 AM
06/09/11 01:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 61 TN
Ciscodog
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I just replaced the radiator and fans in my Dart. I did the test for electrolysis and it's showing .7 VDC. Here's the kicker - it does it with the battery disconnected too. I've checked everything and I'm at a loss, so maybe someone will have an idea that I haven't thought of yet. Here's the rundown on the car so you know what I'm working with:
- '69 Dart - Factory items go through factory fuse block - Aftermarket items go through painless fuse block - No aftermarket items use chassis ground. All grounds go to #8 wire to battery - Elec fuel pump - Elec Water pump - Elec fans - MSD 6AL, 8680, and digital multi retard - NOS progressive controller - Line lock - East Coast 1 wire alt
All items going through relays, which were pulled with no change. The MSD was completely disconnected because it has a capacitor - no change. Changed distilled water - voltage returned. Volt meter is registering .1 VDC when I touch probe to the temp sender at the water pump. The .7 VDC reading drops to .4 when I turn the lights on (not runing). I'm going to try a different volt meter tomorrow but I have ZERO reason to doubt my meter because it's not acting odd in any other way. It reads 12.5 on my battery w/car off. The car runs and all systems operate correctly, so no particular component is acting weird. This one has me stumped. Any help would be appreciated - thanks guys.
EDIT - I have a #8 wire going from the battery to a pass-thru in the firewall. Everything under the hood grounds to the stud. Everything under the dash grounds to the stud. So there's a direct line to the battery, and no chassis grounds for aftermarket stuff.
Last edited by Ciscodog; 06/09/11 09:57 AM.
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Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source
[Re: Ciscodog]
#1009764
06/09/11 02:29 AM
06/09/11 02:29 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,570 Sunny South Florida
Golden-Arm
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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galvanic action between the dissimilar metals of the engine, with the water in the cooling system acting as the electrolyte is going to give you some stray, ultra low readings. are you losing metal in any of the engine parts? water pump housing showing pitting? if everything else is properly grounded, you might try a sacrificial anode, to help reduce the number, and to fight against corrosion of radiator or engine parts. Testing for Stray Current in the Cooling System Another BIG factor in corrosion is stray voltage in the coolant. This causes corrosion even when the coolant is in good condition. If the engine does not have a good ground connection, voltage from the charging system will flow through the coolant to ground, creating and speeding electrolytic corrosion. One needs a voltmeter (multimeter) with a scale capable of reading in millivolts. (I use those with digital read outs.) 1. Empty the vehicle of coolant and flush with clean water. 2. Fill the cooling system with distilled or demineralized water. (A coolant filled system gives inaccurate readings.) 3. Connect the voltmeter to the battery ground and the positive terminal into the coolant making sure not to touch the metal core or filler neck). 4: With the ignition on and again with the engine running, turn on every component. While you are monitoring the presence of stray voltage in the cooling system, have a fellow worker operate the brake lights, parking, head and high beam lights and everything you can't turn on while you're monitoring your voltmeter. 5. Note any voltage and any increases in voltage and what component increased it. Your system has failed if you get a reading above 50mV (0.05 volts) The source (s) of the current leakage should be found, as they can destroy a radiator or other components in a short period of time, depending on the level of voltage. The system is fine if your voltmeter reads below 50mV (0.05 volts) so refill your cooling system with coolant.
"When Tyranny Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty"
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Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source
[Re: Golden-Arm]
#1009765
06/09/11 09:40 AM
06/09/11 09:40 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 61 TN
Ciscodog
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Quote:
galvanic action between the dissimilar metals of the engine, with the water in the cooling system acting as the electrolyte is going to give you some stray, ultra low readings. are you losing metal in any of the engine parts? water pump housing showing pitting? if everything else is properly grounded, you might try a sacrificial anode, to help reduce the number, and to fight against corrosion of radiator or engine parts.
Testing for Stray Current in the Cooling System
Another BIG factor in corrosion is stray voltage in the coolant. This causes corrosion even when the coolant is in good condition. If the engine does not have a good ground connection, voltage from the charging system will flow through the coolant to ground, creating and speeding electrolytic corrosion.
One needs a voltmeter (multimeter) with a scale capable of reading in millivolts. (I use those with digital read outs.)
1. Empty the vehicle of coolant and flush with clean water.
2. Fill the cooling system with distilled or demineralized water. (A coolant filled system gives inaccurate readings.)
3. Connect the voltmeter to the battery ground and the positive terminal into the coolant making sure not to touch the metal core or filler neck).
4: With the ignition on and again with the engine running, turn on every component. While you are monitoring the presence of stray voltage in the cooling system, have a fellow worker operate the brake lights, parking, head and high beam lights and everything you can't turn on while you're monitoring your voltmeter.
5. Note any voltage and any increases in voltage and what component increased it.
Your system has failed if you get a reading above 50mV (0.05 volts) The source (s) of the current leakage should be found, as they can destroy a radiator or other components in a short period of time, depending on the level of voltage.
The system is fine if your voltmeter reads below 50mV (0.05 volts) so refill your cooling system with coolant.
I've already used this process - that's how I know I have .7 VDC.
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Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source
[Re: Ciscodog]
#1009768
06/09/11 06:40 PM
06/09/11 06:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
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Lincoln Nebraska
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If there's no actual current leakage I'd get a $15 zinc sacrificial anode added to one of the unused NPT coolant ports & call it good
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source
[Re: Golden-Arm]
#1009770
06/10/11 12:39 AM
06/10/11 12:39 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 61 TN
Ciscodog
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Okay thanks. I asked Dennis at Ron Davis about the anode today, but they seem to think I should keep looking. If I can't find it I'll go to the anode radiator cap. I don't have any spare ports on the radiator, so the cap will have to do it. I'd just like to find the voltage - it's pissing me off not finding it. I bought another volt meter tonight and validated the reading - it's correct.
Oh - and do you guys run a separate ground from the starter bolt? I hadn't heard of that before. I have a motor plate (aluminum) and a mid plate (steel)that is bolted to the frame.
Last edited by Ciscodog; 06/10/11 12:41 AM.
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Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source
[Re: Twostick]
#1009775
06/10/11 08:24 PM
06/10/11 08:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,316 Prospect, PA
BSB67
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Quote:
ago but IIRC pure water ie distilled water would make a better electrolyte than tap water would so you might actually be making it worse.
This is backwards.
Also, putting a sacrificial anode in the radiator will not help your cyl heads if they are aluminum.
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Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source
[Re: Ciscodog]
#1009777
06/10/11 09:04 PM
06/10/11 09:04 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,566 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,566
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Quote:
Quote:
High school chemistry was a LONG time ago but IIRC pure water ie distilled water would make a better electrolyte than tap water would so you might actually be making it worse. This stuff http://www.fleetguard.com/html/en/products/cooling/coolant/supp_add.html is what I use in my N14 Cummins to keep the cooling system from eating the engine alive. You can get it at any big truck dealer like Kenworth etc.
Kevin
Sounds likely, but is the additive clear? Can't run anything but water at the track any more unless that has changed. It's been a while since I ran the car. I've bookmarked the product - thanks!
Edit - I just read more and it only works with glycol based coolants, so it won't work with just distilled water.
DCA4 Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA) provides superior engine protection in heavy duty diesel applications where glycol based coolants are used, as well as marine and railroad diesel applications where water is used as the coolant. DCA4 is less toxic and, as a result, is preferred by those concerned about skin sensitivity and coolant spills or disposal. DCA4 contains Nitrite and Molybdate for liner pitting protection and phosphate for acid protection.
Works with just water also.
Don't remember if it is clear or not. I haven't had to add any in ages. Once you get the coolant right on a big engine you just change the pre-charged coolant filter to maintain it. If anything it is likely similar to the above mentioned Justice Bros prod and is clear but with dye added. Is your track rule "water only" or "no antifreeze allowed"? You would still be within the rules if it is the latter.
Kevin
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Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source
[Re: Ciscodog]
#1009780
06/11/11 01:22 AM
06/11/11 01:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Quote:
.... I'm still baffled by the fact that I have voltage with the battery disconnected and sitting 10 feet away. The only capacitor in the car is the MSD and that was unhooked too.
I believe that is like static electricity built up in the system from the movement of fluid throught the cooling system.
I just went in the garage and checked mine. I run distilled water, Justice Brothers Cooling System Protector, and Justice Brothers Super Radiator Cool. That's it.
New rebuilt motor with 800 miles: aluminum heads, aluminum radiator, aluminum water pump, brass heater core, cast iron block. I went for ride earlier so the fluid temperature was still at 104 degrees per my laser themometer....
76.8 millivolts or .077 volts
New motor and I spent a TON of time and effort cleaning and chipping rust scale out of the block. So the fluid is tiny tiny bit brownish from loose stuff I couldn get out or got loose since startup. Should flush it.
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Re: Trouble finding electrolysis source
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1009781
06/12/11 10:15 AM
06/12/11 10:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 61 TN
Ciscodog
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Thanks for checking that out. .078 is in the acceptable range - mine is WAY out of it. I'll keep plugging away at it. Putting in some anodes and probably that Justice Brothers stuff.
Last edited by Ciscodog; 06/12/11 09:26 PM.
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