Just check and see how much faster the Max Wedges were at the 64 Winternats. Heck the Max Wedge was the fastest SS cars there and the Hemi had not even hit the track yet. Butch Leal won the stick class in his Thunderbolt at 12.10 and the auto Max Wedge cars ran like 11.70's and won the auto class of course. I think it was Indy in 64 that the old Ramcharger 63 car ran 11.30's and outran everything there. Closes Thuderbolt was around 11.70 I believe. Ron