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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: bigblock4x4]
#835833
10/23/10 08:14 AM
10/23/10 08:14 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
superbyrd
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
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well,i don't read the "bible",i just go with what works. i have built 3 different 400's,using the closed chamber 516's for cheap and easy compression bump. you already have them. your 400 has pistons anywhere from .090 to .115 in the hole. the 452's will keep it at about 7.6 to 1. the 516's will bring it to 9 to 1.
current one i have, 66 coronet 2-door sedan(3700 lbs.)77 400,stock bottom end,no decking,uncut,unported 516's,comp XE268,performer RPM,750 holley VS carb,cheapie summit headers,2400 converter,8 3/4 with 3.55's. car runs on 255/60/15 BFG drag radials, have atleast 50 time slips between 12.94-13.10 in the quarter.do the math. i'm just saying,the 516's work, pretty sure thats not in the "mopar bible",but,the time slips don't lie.......
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: Mirada440]
#835834
10/23/10 09:06 AM
10/23/10 09:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
71383beep
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
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Quote:
The 516s are boat anchors, If read in the mopar bible you dont want to put the 516s on a 400... Ive looked into the 400s alot in the past because my brother and i were both doing builds like yours, Use the 452s and a 268 cam Aluminum intake and holley 750 DP, quick advance springs, headers or good manifolds and she will run hard.... 
closed chamber heads...boat anchors...right! 
I guess by your logic my boat anchor equip'd 383 would have been better off with the 906's it originally had on there which resulted in a fantastic CR ratio of 7.8:1. With those boat anchors I managed to pick up the CR to 9.2:1 with some minor decking...try doing that with an open chamber head...
To me I would not even waste time on an open chamber head...they are the true "boat anchors" in my book.
It is true the valve sizing and port design are not the best. that is why the 915 is more desirable, but the closed chambers make up for a lot of that...especially on 383/400's where piston choice is so poor.
Like anything they need some work to make do, bigger valves, porting, etc. but if your simply gonna do a straight out comparison by bolting on a set of 516's vs ANY open chamber head the closed chamber head will result in more compression = more power.
Wasn't 383HP running a set of 516's on him or his sons dart on a 400 that was running in the low 12's or something?
'73 GK6 Challenger Rallye - 340 4-Speed
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: bigblock4x4]
#835835
10/23/10 09:18 AM
10/23/10 09:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
we here have been gettin TERRIBLE RESULTS with any comp but if you guys think the comp is better let me know why???i have never ran one,but there are 3 peope near by that have had there cams go flat in about 10 minutes,and they followed there break-in procedures to the letter,i was there,if it's good i'll use it,but i cant afford to tear down an engine every time they go flat.what did your car run like with that build?i got a 68 dart that should weigh somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000-3200 lbs
There seems to be a bad run for Comp users as of late, I would go with your gut on it .
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: 71383beep]
#835836
10/23/10 12:29 PM
10/23/10 12:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
bigblock4x4
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
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Quote:
Quote:
The 516s are boat anchors, If read in the mopar bible you dont want to put the 516s on a 400... Ive looked into the 400s alot in the past because my brother and i were both doing builds like yours, Use the 452s and a 268 cam Aluminum intake and holley 750 DP, quick advance springs, headers or good manifolds and she will run hard....
closed chamber heads...boat anchors...right!
I guess by your logic my boat anchor equip'd 383 would have been better off with the 906's it originally had on there which resulted in a fantastic CR ratio of 7.8:1. With those boat anchors I managed to pick up the CR to 9.2:1 with some minor decking...try doing that with an open chamber head...
To me I would not even waste time on an open chamber head...they are the true "boat anchors" in my book.
It is true the valve sizing and port design are not the best. that is why the 915 is more desirable, but the closed chambers make up for a lot of that...especially on 383/400's where piston choice is so poor.
Like anything they need some work to make do, bigger valves, porting, etc. but if your simply gonna do a straight out comparison by bolting on a set of 516's vs ANY open chamber head the closed chamber head will result in more compression = more power.
Wasn't 383HP running a set of 516's on him or his sons dart on a 400 that was running in the low 12's or something?
the 452's that i have are 80 cc's and have had some bowl work,if the 516's r better i'll use em,should i put the better exhaust valve n em first and have everthing checked?they are bone stock as they sit,and the milled 452's are ready to bolt on,thanks everyone for the responses
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: gch]
#835840
10/23/10 04:41 PM
10/23/10 04:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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might checkout Dulcichs' porting articles in the Mopar Muscle archives. (3 part articles/excellent) & iirc there was some area on 516's that should not be touched (short side radius on the ex side?) that is std procedure to be reworked on all other iron OE heads but that they definitely can be made to flow. They do have a bad rep & might be if you touch that area they will flow worse which is maybe why.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#835846
10/23/10 11:37 PM
10/23/10 11:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
bigblock4x4
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
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Quote:
I ran the lunati voodoo 60303 cam in a 70's low compression 440 and it ran quite well after I curved the distributor to suit it. The voodoo 60302 would make for a good running cam in your combo and being a 400 instead of a 440 you'd likely want to take it a notch down from what I ran .
Quote:
To me I would not even waste time on an open chamber head...they are the true "boat anchors" in my book.
Same here. His have supposedly already been cut so I would make an exception but in general  .
Quote:
the 452's that i have are 80 cc's and ...
Are you sure on the 80cc? To get 452's do to 80cc, I think you need to whack something like .100" off them. That much milling introduces some other issues as well...
Quote:
If you do your research has in mopar performance/direct connection race books...
FWIW I have one of the direct connection race books and there's so much crap info in there I threw it on the shelf and haven't looked at in in years.
they are for sure 80cc my friend checked em for me to make sure,might have to get some different length pushrods???they've been ported on some already that's the main reason i would like to use them,but i really am not that picky,it's not gonna make 500 hp either way,there's different ways to skin a cat,all you guys have been a big help and i apprciate it a lot
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: Junky]
#835850
10/24/10 09:42 AM
10/24/10 09:42 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,142
Central NC
gch
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,142
Central NC
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Quote:
What is a voodoo 60302? I know it's a cam, but what?
Lunati Voodoo cams. 
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: Junky]
#835851
10/24/10 09:53 AM
10/24/10 09:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
71383beep
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
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I agree if the 452's are already cut then I say use em. Notice in my post I said in stock form standing side by side.
I could care less what ANY book says...especially if its from mopar performance. Most of there junk breaks while looking at it because their QC is a joke. The "book" also says stock 383's ran 10:1 compression which is also a bunch of bull. I will gladly line up my boat anchor equipped mild built 383 to a mild non decked 383 with OC heads ANY DAY. Books are meaningless to real world experience and I have been there with this issue. Label anything you want with your fart in the wind nonsense...compression does matter and there is a world of difference between 7.8:1 and 9.2:1.
IF the 452 heads are properly milled to basically a CC design then yes I agree the 452's are a better port design and therefore should make more power. This is rare though because it requires A lot of head work and also requires intake decking and different pushrods too. It is not the normal route for a cheap rebuild.
I don't hang onto any open chamber heads...unless I need to prop a door open or...anchor my boat!
'73 GK6 Challenger Rallye - 340 4-Speed
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: gch]
#835853
10/24/10 12:03 PM
10/24/10 12:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
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Quote:
Quote:
What is a voodoo 60302? I know it's a cam, but what?
Lunati Voodoo cams.
I mean, what's the specs?
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: Junky]
#835854
10/24/10 12:22 PM
10/24/10 12:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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With those pistons still being a mile down in the holes it doesn't really matter what kinda lump of iron you put on there, it will still be a dog. In this stage I think compression ratio makes more power than headflow. I agree with the '71bee here that in stock form I take a closed chamber head anytime over an open chamber smoghead. There's more than just this .5 point of compression gain. With proper 0-deck (dished) pistons there's also quench-effect to be achieved. In true redneck style one could ofcourse put a .100" slab of JB weld on the pistons to increase the CR a bit... 
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: Junky]
#835855
10/24/10 01:13 PM
10/24/10 01:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
bigblock4x4
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What is a voodoo 60302? I know it's a cam, but what?
Lunati Voodoo cams.
I mean, what's the specs?
it's 262/268,220/226@.050,.475/.494 with a 108 degree centerline,1400-5800rpm range
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: OrangeProwler]
#835857
10/24/10 03:32 PM
10/24/10 03:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,458
oklahoma
forphorty
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,458
oklahoma
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Quote:
I have a 400 myself as of recent and I am wondering how the Small Summit Cam would work for off the line? I noticed 1500-5000 rpm range where the Lunati Voodoo 60301 is 1000-5500 rpm. I am going to running a stock bottom end since I'm mostly just a cruiser. I have a Summit Cam in my 318 and I am happy with it but, it is 1200-5200 for the powerband. Anyways, just thinking.
I bet for what you are doing, both cams would be pretty similar in performance. As far as operating rpm range listed, those numbers are arbitrary,i.e. they just pulled the numbers out of their azzez.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: forphorty]
#835859
10/24/10 09:34 PM
10/24/10 09:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
I have a 400 myself as of recent and I am wondering how the Small Summit Cam would work for off the line? I noticed 1500-5000 rpm range where the Lunati Voodoo 60301 is 1000-5500 rpm. I am going to running a stock bottom end since I'm mostly just a cruiser. I have a Summit Cam in my 318 and I am happy with it but, it is 1200-5200 for the powerband. Anyways, just thinking.
I bet for what you are doing, both cams would be pretty similar in performance. As far as operating rpm range listed, those numbers are arbitrary,i.e. they just pulled the numbers out of their azzez.
small summit cam would work fine.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#835861
10/25/10 01:23 PM
10/25/10 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
With those pistons still being a mile down in the holes it doesn't really matter what kinda lump of iron you put on there, it will still be a dog. In this stage I think compression ratio makes more power than headflow.
I agree with the '71bee here that in stock form I take a closed chamber head anytime over an open chamber smoghead. There's more than just this .5 point of compression gain. With proper 0-deck (dished) pistons there's also quench-effect to be achieved.
In true redneck style one could ofcourse put a .100" slab of JB weld on the pistons to increase the CR a bit...
bumping from 8:1 to 9:1 leaving all other things constant will yield in about a 4% power increase. I had a 360 that calculated out to just under 8:1 that made very respectable power, enough to allow my 3900lb 5th ave keep up with a 5.7L chrysler 300hemiC from a 20mph roll....some home porting to the heads, headers, RPM air gap, and a comp XE262 made for a very strong low comp motor.
anyway, I'd run the 452's if they're ready to run and are truly 80cc.
cam, run the lunati voodoo 60302. it's actually a 112LSA on a 108 ICL, and the comp XE268 is a 110 LSA on a 106 LSA.
with your weight, stall and gearing, I'd install it as ground (108LSA), if it was a heavier car, lower stall, or taller gearing, I'd consider installing it advanced another 2-4 degrees (104-106 degree ICL.
intake, I'd probably run in this order: performer RPM, DP4B, street dominator, performer, M1 dual plane, weiand dual plane, stock manifold,
I'd definitely run headers, cheapest 20hp/20lb-ft torque you'll find.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: not_a_charger]
#835865
10/25/10 02:26 PM
10/25/10 02:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,819
Middle of A Field
OrangeProwler
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,819
Middle of A Field
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree with patrick on the headers only because Comp Cams Program showed around the same gains going to small tube headers vs using HP log manifolds.
I wonder if the same would hold true with HP manifolds that have been cleaned up internally and port matched?
I would imagine if you had them extruded out a bit I would think there would be some marginal difference. I mean after there is guys in the FAST class that has some good tricks up their sleeve.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: not_a_charger]
#835867
10/25/10 02:35 PM
10/25/10 02:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
What about the rest of the exhaust system on a mild 400 like this? Would going to 2.5 duals be a worthwhile investment instead of 2.25 duals?
Depends. My car had a compression bent 2.25" exhaust system on it when I bought it and in places on the curves that thing necked down to 1.75" or less. To me that's not acceptable. But if your car has a mandrel bent 2.25" system on it, I would say just keep it. If your system needs replacing or you haven't bought yet, go with the 2.5".
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#835869
10/25/10 03:38 PM
10/25/10 03:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
w/ patrick on the intake manifold choices. With the voodoo 60302 being a mild cam and ground on a 112LSA, you wouldn't see a huge difference between hp manifolds and cheapie headers.
I bet you would.....
Dulcich has shown a gain of at least that much on a number of "resto to rad" builds in mopar muscle on a dyno....granted it's westech's dyno that has been accused of being "happy", but look at the relative gain, since it's pretty much back to back pulls on the same dyno....
cleaned up, ported, extrude honed, etc HP manifolds will probably net you 1 or 2 HP over untouched.....heck, on the 300HP magnum crate motor, he saw 5hp difference between 318 and 340HP manifolds, and 10-20HP on top of that with various headers, and similar torque improvements throughout the RPM range.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#835880
10/25/10 04:43 PM
10/25/10 04:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
bigblock4x4
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
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Quote:
Yes, however cams with a wider LSA tend to be not quite as sensitive to headers vs hp manifolds in as mild of an application like this. I think he could see a 10-20hp difference at best with headers vs hp manifolds, however whether or not he considers that significant enough to justify going to headers, that's up to him.
i alreay got the headers,and an intake,still gotta get a carberator,ignition,and timing chain,and also rings got a tranny and convertor,also need 8 3/4,gonna leave it column shifted i'm gettin closer by the minute(or as my budge allows)thanks everyone for yor input it is helpin more than you know.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#835881
10/25/10 04:44 PM
10/25/10 04:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
superbyrd
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
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but,all the magazine gurus,hype,and crap,is all with all the carb they can run,with maximum jetting,and peak rpm horsepower,blah,blah,blah. not at driving around town and street crusing,where,you will not notice a lick of difference between cleaned up HP manifolds and cheapie headers. and then factor in the future leaks,tight fit,etc. not worth it. really. and the difference in 2 1/4 over 2 1/2. on your car,with the weight and all things considered,2 1/4 will more than suffice. i don't know how many people you see on this board,and alot of other places,that are barely making 400hp and actually believe they "need" 2 1/2 or 3" mandrel bent exhaust on their cars.lolol really. well,i guess they might think that if they listen to all that "magazine,perfect world,on paper,westech dyno proven" bullcrap. i read that stuff for what it is.......good reading. then i go with what works in the real world,on the street,etc.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: superbyrd]
#835882
10/25/10 06:17 PM
10/25/10 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
but,all the magazine gurus,hype,and crap,is all with all the carb they can run,with maximum jetting,and peak rpm horsepower,blah,blah,blah. not at driving around town and street crusing,where,you will not notice a lick of difference between cleaned up HP manifolds and cheapie headers. and then factor in the future leaks,tight fit,etc. not worth it. really. and the difference in 2 1/4 over 2 1/2. on your car,with the weight and all things considered,2 1/4 will more than suffice. i don't know how many people you see on this board,and alot of other places,that are barely making 400hp and actually believe they "need" 2 1/2 or 3" mandrel bent exhaust on their cars.lolol really. well,i guess they might think that if they listen to all that "magazine,perfect world,on paper,westech dyno proven" bullcrap. i read that stuff for what it is.......good reading. then i go with what works in the real world,on the street,etc.
------------------------
i have nothing of value to ad
Your sig pretty much sums this post up .
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: JohnRR]
#835883
10/25/10 07:42 PM
10/25/10 07:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
superbyrd
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
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lots of folks come on here,asking for help,and answers,wanting input on how to make power,most on a budget,or not alot to work with,and the same ole' answers file in.
you guys who swear by the "experts",and magazine "gurus",ever wonder how in the world guys 30-40 years ago ever got a car to move down the track,or make a single horsepower,without your "quench" this,and stroked that,and so and so says this and that won't work???? must have been some kind of miricale. must have never happened.amazing..............
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: superbyrd]
#835884
10/25/10 07:46 PM
10/25/10 07:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
but,all the magazine gurus,hype,and crap,is all with all the carb they can run,with maximum jetting,and peak rpm horsepower,blah,blah,blah. not at driving around town and street crusing,where,you will not notice a lick of difference between cleaned up HP manifolds and cheapie headers. and then factor in the future leaks,tight fit,etc. not worth it. really. and the difference in 2 1/4 over 2 1/2. on your car,with the weight and all things considered,2 1/4 will more than suffice. i don't know how many people you see on this board,and alot of other places,that are barely making 400hp and actually believe they "need" 2 1/2 or 3" mandrel bent exhaust on their cars.lolol really. well,i guess they might think that if they listen to all that "magazine,perfect world,on paper,westech dyno proven" bullcrap. i read that stuff for what it is.......good reading. then i go with what works in the real world,on the street,etc.
I've run a bunch of cheap headers, never had a leak never had to beat and bang them and never banged them up on the ground. If you think Mani's even hi-po units flow as well as a headers you're nutz. Maybe if you run the same choked up 2" exhaust, but with 2.5" and the 1 3/4" tube headers you will pick up HP and MPG's (if you care about that kind of thing).
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#835885
10/25/10 07:49 PM
10/25/10 07:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
I dunno, the cheapie summit headers fit my car well and don't hang down low at all. If I had to do it all over, I would buy the summit cheapies again.
that's what I got and a mini starter. Fit fine w/ PS too.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#835886
10/25/10 07:55 PM
10/25/10 07:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
superbyrd
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
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not saying the manifolds flow as well as the headers,or even make as much power. but,alot of folks DO have those problems. snag them on speed bumps,have leaks over time,etc. on the same side of that coin,most run stock starters(and constantly cook them)run poor gaskets (that soon leak)and get tired of the tight fit. my standpoint on headers,is,majority of folks car will see little,or no track time. much less rarely ever run for over a few seconds above 4000 rpm. with those factors, huge pipes,and headers are going to produce very little "seat off the pants" feel. cruising around the dairy queen,you won't be able to tell the difference.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: superbyrd]
#835887
10/26/10 01:20 AM
10/26/10 01:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
cruising around the dairy queen,you won't be able to tell the difference.
Crusing around the dairy queen you won't feel the difference between a 318 and a 440 either. It's all about what you want it to do when you hit the GO pedal. You're right, those not taking their cars to the track need not squeeze every last hp out of their car if they don't want to. I don't think anyone in this thread was suggesting quench or strokers. He said he's on a budget and we all understand. FWIW, cheapie headers usually cost less than what HP manifolds go for.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: bigblock4x4]
#835889
10/26/10 09:29 AM
10/26/10 09:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
my buddies buildin a 74 dart sport with a 440,his is definatly gonna run better,but i'm always messin with him,we ARE definatly gonna run em at the strip a little,i just want to get the most outa what i got,no since in not racing,that's what it's all about oh and it's a 1/8th mile track so i should be able to maybe get away with a little more gear if recommended i said 3.91's but maybe 4.10's???
not much difference in those. It depends on the cam you have. You could always go w/ a shorter tire. That thing isn't going to pull many rpm's. I'd lok at a cam that works well from off idle to about 5200 max. You could always buy a used S/C unit off of 'bay. SBC or Furd would work fine. It'd give you 5-6psi off boost and really WAKE that thing up.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: superbyrd]
#835890
10/26/10 10:23 AM
10/26/10 10:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
lots of folks come on here,asking for help,and answers,wanting input on how to make power,most on a budget,or not alot to work with,and the same ole' answers file in.
you guys who swear by the "experts",and magazine "gurus",ever wonder how in the world guys 30-40 years ago ever got a car to move down the track,or make a single horsepower,without your "quench" this,and stroked that,and so and so says this and that won't work???? must have been some kind of miricale. must have never happened.amazing..............
It's called EVOLUTION , might as well go back to flatheads with your backwards thinking.
Go and build a 440" motor with 12.2 compression, open chamber iron heads , NO QUENCH and run it on today's 91 octane fuel and get back to us on how well it runs ...
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: JohnRR]
#835891
10/26/10 10:45 AM
10/26/10 10:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,940
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,940
Holly/MI
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Good thread guys! Very spirited!  Remember, headers ADD torque at ALL rpm's. A difference you can feel. I'm also of the compression-over-flow crowd. BUT, I never install 516's with the 1.60 exh. valve. Always add the 1.74 valve and a quick bowl/intake/exhaust template porting and YOU WILL feel a difference in the whole rpm band. 13.08 at 106 mph with a 3600 car with my favorite "boat anchors. 
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: superbyrd]
#835892
10/26/10 11:59 AM
10/26/10 11:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
and the difference in 2 1/4 over 2 1/2. on your car,with the weight and all things considered,2 1/4 will more than suffice. i don't know how many people you see on this board,and alot of other places,that are barely making 400hp and actually believe they "need" 2 1/2 or 3" mandrel bent exhaust on their cars.lolol really. well,i guess they might think that if they listen to all that "magazine,perfect world,on paper,westech dyno proven" bullcrap. i read that stuff for what it is.......good reading. then i go with what works in the real world,on the street,etc.
point of reference...our 3.8L '06 caravan has a 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust stock from the factory....
dual 2.5 will be about right for this combo, I wouldn't go smaller, especially if compression bent.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: bigblock4x4]
#835893
10/26/10 10:07 PM
10/26/10 10:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,458
oklahoma
forphorty
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,458
oklahoma
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Quote:
my buddies buildin a 74 dart sport with a 440,his is definatly gonna run better,but i'm always messin with him,we ARE definatly gonna run em at the strip a little,i just want to get the most outa what i got,no since in not racing,that's what it's all about oh and it's a 1/8th mile track so i should be able to maybe get away with a little more gear if recommended i said 3.91's but maybe 4.10's???
A good converter and sticky tires, if you have them and your buddy doesn't, he will lose.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: superbyrd]
#835896
10/27/10 01:28 PM
10/27/10 01:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,940
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,940
Holly/MI
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Yeah, I think many forget about the "build a better airpump" theory. Good compression is there in ALL rpm's ranges and the 516's nominally smaller porting may actually create a higher velocity port too. Especially for the 383/400 bore stroke combination.
Low compression seriously hurts low end with a 230+ duration at .050 and the 383/400 is a relatively short stroke motor compared to any other big block and even a 383 SBC.
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: bigblock4x4]
#835898
10/28/10 09:49 AM
10/28/10 09:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,940
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,940
Holly/MI
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Check the cc's of the heads and we can help you further.
If the 452's are equal to the 516's use the 452's. Reason being, hardened seats, 1.74 exh. valve, same compression, slightly better flow.
Ideally you want the compression of the 516's (w/the milled 452's) with the benefits of the 452's. And sounds like they are close.
If both sets of heads were equally worn and untouched, I'd update & freshen up the 516's. Just my opinion.
Cc'ing a set of heads can be as easy as putting some old spark plugs in, filling the comb. chamber with Play-Doh, cut the clay level with the deck surface, and then pull it all out and drop it in a beaker/measuring cup with a known amount of fluid. What ever it registers as a new amount is your "cc's".
Last edited by Dean_Kuzluzski; 10/28/10 09:53 AM.
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: superbyrd]
#835903
10/29/10 08:21 AM
10/29/10 08:21 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,819
Middle of A Field
OrangeProwler
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,819
Middle of A Field
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Quote:
if they are the originals,i don't think i would want to use the "stock" valve springs with either cam choice.
I don't understand why I couldn't? The motor is low mileage unit and it looks okay on the inside from what I can see. My 318 got the K6900 cam when it had around 170k miles and using the stock springs and still is going alright other than the usual high mileage issue.
My car will be mostly a cruiser and for right now I am just doing a budget build on this engine until I see how things go or if I decide go another route.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: OrangeProwler]
#835905
10/29/10 08:37 AM
10/29/10 08:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
if they are the originals,i don't think i would want to use the "stock" valve springs with either cam choice.
I don't understand why I couldn't? The motor is low mileage unit and it looks okay on the inside from what I can see. My 318 got the K6900 cam when it had around 170k miles and using the stock springs and still is going alright other than the usual high mileage issue.
My car will be mostly a cruiser and for right now I am just doing a budget build on this engine until I see how things go or if I decide go another route.
Oh you can use them if you want but they are not speced for that cam and will float very easily, they'll be great to break the cam in , but that's about it. If you want the best performance from the can you should use it with speced springs.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: patrick]
#835906
10/29/10 09:20 AM
10/29/10 09:20 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,819
Middle of A Field
OrangeProwler
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,819
Middle of A Field
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Thanks guys. I hate pulling the heads off this engine as it was running. I figure I could replace the 2bbl cam with something with a little more lope and I want around at least 280 ponies at the crank. Any suggestions? A Comp 252H only nets me 264 ponies. My 318 is 225 net horsepower.
Last edited by magnumminded; 10/29/10 09:52 AM.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: OrangeProwler]
#835907
10/29/10 10:19 AM
10/29/10 10:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,940
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,940
Holly/MI
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You can change valve springs while the heads are still on the car. Mancini racing, and others, sell a tool that bolts onto the rockershaft pedestal. You could probably rent or borrow one too. The trouble is when adding more lift the "valve retainer-to-guide clearance" MUST be checked. Those cams, anything above .440 lift as far as I'm concerned, are in the range of such a said crash. I just tried that on a set oof 318 heads, the retainers crash at .465, the cam has .477/.507 lift, .050-.100 clearance is recommended. It's either take the heads to a machinist for a "little off the top" or buy a self-centering tool and do it myself.  The factory valvesprings are VERY weak and would be all done anywhere between 4500-5500 and due to destructive harmonics it breaks down from there very quickly. Which can get into a situation where the valves are still open when the pistons are at TDC (Read: another crash). It's the old "might as well situation", so do it right and do it once. A cam, valvesprings, pc seals, and headgaskets aren't that much.
Last edited by Dean_Kuzluzski; 10/29/10 10:21 AM.
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: Dean_Kuzluzski]
#835910
10/29/10 10:51 AM
10/29/10 10:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,819
Middle of A Field
OrangeProwler
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,819
Middle of A Field
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Quote:
Quote:
Dean I wanted to say thanks for the post. Looks like I got some tough choices to make.
Hey, no problem, it always feels good to help.
But remember, when on a budget, sometimes ya just got to throw it together with the most sound parts you have and enjoy it while you're saving up for the better combo.
Well Dean not to go OT but and not to be negative but, when you have someone who puts a lot of stipulations on you and keeps you on a tight budget and throws a lot of things around upon you it makes it a tough situation. Anyways, thanks again.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: OrangeProwler]
#835911
10/29/10 07:25 PM
10/29/10 07:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
superbyrd
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
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if you are on that tight of a budget,magnumminded,i have a stock 383 magnum cam/lifters (just pulled out of a less than 60,XXX mile 383 from a 69 roadrunner) i kept the lifters in order. you pay shipping,and they are yours. that way you won't have to shell out for new valve springs,and it will be better than your stock 2-bbl cam.
Last edited by superbyrd; 10/29/10 11:30 PM.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: Dean_Kuzluzski]
#835912
10/29/10 10:54 PM
10/29/10 10:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
bigblock4x4
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
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Quote:
Check the cc's of the heads and we can help you further.
If the 452's are equal to the 516's use the 452's. Reason being, hardened seats, 1.74 exh. valve, same compression, slightly better flow.
Ideally you want the compression of the 516's (w/the milled 452's) with the benefits of the 452's. And sounds like they are close.
If both sets of heads were equally worn and untouched, I'd update & freshen up the 516's. Just my opinion.
Cc'ing a set of heads can be as easy as putting some old spark plugs in, filling the comb. chamber with Play-Doh, cut the clay level with the deck surface, and then pull it all out and drop it in a beaker/measuring cup with a known amount of fluid. What ever it registers as a new amount is your "cc's".
use the 516's because of the quench??
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: superbyrd]
#835913
10/29/10 11:09 PM
10/29/10 11:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
if you are on that tight of a budget,i have a stock 383 magnum cam/lifters (just pulled out of a less than 60,XXX mile 383 from a 69 roadrunner) i kept the lifters in order. you pay shipping,and they are yours. that way you won't have to shell out for new valve springs,and it will be better than your stock 2-bbl cam.
Why wouldn't he need new springs? That cam used a different spring than the 400 2bbl.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: Dean_Kuzluzski]
#835916
10/30/10 03:00 PM
10/30/10 03:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
bigblock4x4
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 459
pana illinois
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Quote:
Quote:
use the 516's because of the quench??
What quench? In the original post he said the piston was ".100 in the hole". Never gonna happen.
i didn't mean cause of the quench,i meant use them becaue of the closed chamber,sorry i goofed up.
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Re: stock 400 build
[Re: bigblock4x4]
#835918
11/14/10 12:56 PM
11/14/10 12:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
i had the ported 452's checked and they flowed 245cfm on the intake and 205cfm on the [Email]exhaust@.550"lift.not[/Email] too shaby,think i'll be buying some better pistons to utilize the head flow?
that's better than stock , yes a piston that was closer to zero would be a better choice to bring up the compression . Did you have a chamber Cc'd to see what they were ? Did I miss that in the thread ?
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