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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: sixbbl69]
#650261
03/31/10 04:03 AM
03/31/10 04:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29,654
Hamtramck, PA
Alaskan_TA
Fluffy Balladeer
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Fluffy Balladeer
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29,654
Hamtramck, PA
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Quote:
i wondered how long it was going to take before a certain poster would start name calling again. every post sounds like a 5 yr old having a fit. 
There is an easy solution;
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*** You are ignoring this user ***
It works & I am sure he will be banned again sooner or later.
Be ready to block his emails also if he contacts you off the board with one of his tirades.
That said, the car is the star when it comes to original OE details, no two cars are / were exactly the same.
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: Alaskan_TA]
#650262
03/31/10 09:16 AM
03/31/10 09:16 AM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Quote:
It works & I am sure he will be banned again sooner or later.
Be ready to block his emails also if he contacts you off the board with one of his tirades.
 Wow......thanks for the "support" Barry!   Just remember that my email continues to be open the next time you need a favor! 
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: cataclysm80]
#650264
03/31/10 09:43 AM
03/31/10 09:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
Wow......thanks for the "support" Barry! Just remember that my email continues to be open the next time you need a favor!
Dave, I'm pretty sure that wasn't meant for you, I've had similar experiences with the new (now set to "ignore") user.
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
#650266
03/31/10 09:59 AM
03/31/10 09:59 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,165
Florida
cataclysm80
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,165
Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
ENGINE BAY
Every OE Judge/Restorer knows that there were spots in the engine compartment that exhibited "runs in the paint" due to difficulty in reaching certain areas. The painters held the paint guns on those areas a bit longer trying to get sufficient coverage and "runs in the paint" usually resulted. I have personally researched and documented over 40 original E Body engine compartments and EVERY one of them exhibited a different "spray" and "paint run" pattern.
The above information is very good information. Combined with a little more description of the factory painting process and some way to identify which areas commonly have runs, it may be sufficient to apply paint in an OE manner. I myself understand that it isn't unusual for factory paint jobs to have runs, but I am unfamiliar with which areas on the car commonly have runs. None of my own 3 cars are original paint. My friend down the road owns a body shop. He has 11 E bodies, none with original paint. My friend in town restores mopars professionally (not to an OE level). I haven't seen every car that came through his shop, but I don't recall seeing an original paint E body yet. I can pretty much forget about seeing original paint E bodies at any of the car shows around here. They're not that kind of car shows. A regional type show may allow me to finally be able to see some more original cars to further my car education.
The below information is just plain silly, which I think is the point. Does the OE program really judge the thickness of a cars paint?
Tav
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Now which one of those 40+ engine compartments should I have attempted to write a "Manual" about? Keep in mind that the other THOUSANDS that I didn't get to document most certainly exhibited a different paint pattern for EVERY one. Can you imagine having to construct a "Manual" covering just the 1970 E-Body engine compartments and trying to tell the EXACT features that they should ALL exhibit? Come to think of it I forgot the paint mil. variation that existed between those engine compartments! That particular character feature just increased the "variation" multiplier astronomically!
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: cataclysm80]
#650267
03/31/10 10:20 AM
03/31/10 10:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
The above information is very good information. Combined with a little more description of the factory painting process and some way to identify which areas commonly have runs, it may be sufficient to apply paint in an OE manner. I myself understand that it isn't unusual for factory paint jobs to have runs, but I am unfamiliar with which areas on the car commonly have runs. None of my own 3 cars are original paint.
Sounds good on paper, but pretty much impossible to do. Here's just one small example; If you were looking at this fender tag and the surrounding paint, first try to describe it (without the aid of the picture) then try to tell someone how to perfectly replicate it. Good luck! Not to mention that you'll never see the same look twice, it varied from car to car as mentioned above.
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
#650268
03/31/10 10:26 AM
03/31/10 10:26 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,165
Florida
cataclysm80
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,165
Florida
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Quote:
Some cars are basket cases and no longer have the factory features that were evident when they were new. Some cars have been refurbished and all of their original features were removed when they were incorrectly "modified". If someone chooses to rebuild one of these type vehicles to OE specifications they need to research and document OTHER original vehicles and the characteristics that came on those UNMOLESTED cars. Since there are hundreds of variations to research and document, IT IS UP TO THE OWNER TO SELECT WHICH CORRECT CHARACTERISTICS THEY CHOOSE TO INCORPORATE INTO THEIR VEHICLE RESTORATION. It is not up to the judges or anyone else to decide what original features should be used in the process. IT IS UP TO THE OWNER/RESTORER TO DO THEIR OE HOMEWORK!!! They need to document the original features they researched AND be able to show the judges their documented findings.
That is a good description of the boat I'm in with my cars. None are very original, all have been modified in the past. I need to see other cars and talk with other people that have similar interests in order to learn which features on my cars are original, and which are not. (preferably before I touch anything on them)
Like I said before, two of my cars are clones. I have a 340 'Cuda that is cloned into an AAR. It's the first car I ever restored and I like it a lot. I learned TONS, but of coarse it's no where near OE. Still, I think it would be interesting to have it judged as an AAR. I wouldn't expect it to come anywhere near OE Gold because it's not a real AAR and also for other reasons. I would be very proud if it scored even 70%.
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What many people do not know is that there is a two or three year waiting list for those who wish to participate in the OE judging program. At the end of every Nationals OE competition the judges start to research data on the NEXT group of OE participants. This can be very tedious because there may be five completely different styles/years of vehicles to research. They start preparing a year in advance to judge the next group of OE cars!! This means that the participants and the judges are BOTH researching the MANY features that could have been found on a factory vehicle! It takes YEARS to be able to document the hundreds of variations that might have been evident on just ONE model of vehicle. When the judging begins, the judges have accumulated enough data to determine if a vehicle exhibits the necessary characteristics to be awarded an OE status. The judging staff spends MONTHS gathering data about a specific vehicle in order to properly judge a car. THEY ALSO REVIEW THE DOCUMENTED VEHICLE INFORMATION (FROM THE PARTICIPANTS) BEFORE THE VEHICLE ARRIVES AT THE SHOW! The judging actually starts BEFORE the car is placed on the lift at the Nationals!! (We will have over 2500 pictures this year for the judges to review and scrutinize before the show.) That is why there will never be a "Manual" that will DICTATE how something "should" be done on EVERY car! There are HUNDREDS of possible variations per vehicle, every variation can be correct and the judges spend years studying these MANY variations so they can accurately judge the cars! It is a tremendous amount of research, documentation and WORK!
Thanks Dave, that was enlightening also. I had no idea the judges had a year to prepare for the judging.
Tav
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: cataclysm80]
#650269
03/31/10 12:02 PM
03/31/10 12:02 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Quote:
The below information is just plain silly, which I think is the point. Does the OE program really judge the thickness of a cars paint?
Hi Tav,
I was NOT joking! Dave Stuart spent the better part of an afternoon documenting the mil paint thickness of every panel on the Valiant. He documented every few inches of each body panel to make sure that what ever we took off during sanding, it would accurately be replaced during the paint process. The judges have the same instruments to check mil thickness and WILL use it if you provide that particular type of data. Every part of our vehicle measured between 2 to 2.5 mil thickness of original paint. The lower part of the engine compartment had the least amount of paint coverage.
(We lost the "Manual" on this part of the restoration so we just had to wing it!) 
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#650270
03/31/10 12:07 PM
03/31/10 12:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29,654
Hamtramck, PA
Alaskan_TA
Fluffy Balladeer
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Fluffy Balladeer
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29,654
Hamtramck, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Wow......thanks for the "support" Barry! Just remember that my email continues to be open the next time you need a favor!
Dave, I'm pretty sure that wasn't meant for you, I've had similar experiences with the new (now set to "ignore") user.
Exactly right.
Dave, that comment was not about you at all. 
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: Alaskan_TA]
#650271
03/31/10 12:29 PM
03/31/10 12:29 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Quote:
Dave, that comment was not about you at all.
Thank goodness! I was hoping not. I can't afford to lose anymore friends!  This OE thing is starting to ruin me.  I think my good buddy sixbbl69 was actually referring to me Barry. I don't know what the big deal was though?! I thought it was complimentary to compare someone to a big Hollywood Movie Star or one of the SMARTEST people of all time! Go figure?!
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: cataclysm80]
#650272
03/31/10 12:51 PM
03/31/10 12:51 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Quote:
I am unfamiliar with which areas on the car commonly have runs.
Hi Tav,
One area that will almost always have runs (due to the difficulty in reaching it) is the passenger side upper firewall/inner fender well area. That zone usually had some unique representation of paint runs. The Valiant engine compartment was the same way and so was my Challenger. We were able to "scuff" the original paint in the Valiant engine compartment, leave ALL the factory paint "run" patterns so when our thin coat of new paint was applied, it kept the EXACT "run" characteristics that it came with. Not a single paint "flaw" or feature was removed or altered! We even preserved the baked and "bubbled" paint that was puddled in the heads of the attaching fender bolts!
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
#650273
04/03/10 02:08 AM
04/03/10 02:08 AM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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First of all I don't believe the name calling comment was directed at me as I have not called anyone any names.
If you use the "car is the manual" theory, then I guess all cars would be a winner in OEM judging based on using that thought. You have to have a standard to judge against based on what is correct for the majority of the cars built. That really only applies to a very few certain things that can be a identified between factory assembly plant differences, individual line worker things that can sometimes be identified, etc. You will also find that if you check with other makes for OEM judging manuals, they allow for these types of differences, AND that they judge against a standard. For a car as you are preparing of course you are not going to find any to compare it to, as I doubt that there ever has been or ever will be another 4 door Valiant restored or shown in an OEM judging format, so in YOUR case there is never going to be a manual other than your car.
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: DartSportDude]
#650275
04/03/10 08:17 PM
04/03/10 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
I spoke with Dave Wise about judging my car a few years ago. His response? There isn't much to go on when it comes to early 70s A-bodies. So, I've just done the best I can, with the information I have from my own car.
I saw your car in Vegas, looked VERY nice! Probably the best post 71 A-body I've seen. However, I'd ding you pretty hard for those aftermarket wheels and tires in O.E.
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#650276
04/03/10 10:11 PM
04/03/10 10:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 164
Arizona
DartSportDude
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 164
Arizona
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Quote:
I saw your car in Vegas, looked VERY nice! Probably the best post 71 A-body I've seen. However, I'd ding you pretty hard for those aftermarket wheels and tires in O.E.
Hey Scott. You should have stopped to say hi. I thought I'd see you around the Strip. Go easy on me with the Keystones -- I just love 'em too much to swap them for Rallye's. Of course, they'll be the first thing to go if I ever have you guys take a hard look at my car for serious judging! 
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#650278
04/03/10 10:28 PM
04/03/10 10:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 164
Arizona
DartSportDude
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 164
Arizona
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Quote:
Oh I did stop by several times, at the show and at the Canary, but I wouldn't have known you from any of the other 20 people doing circles around your car eyeballing it
You should have recognized me -- I was the guy with the yellow Microfiber towel in my hand! Constant cleaning on that car -- two days straight -- thanks to all the stinking wind and dust. What kind of a nut brings two black cars to a show in the desert?? 
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Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#650279
04/03/10 10:29 PM
04/03/10 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29,654
Hamtramck, PA
Alaskan_TA
Fluffy Balladeer
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Fluffy Balladeer
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29,654
Hamtramck, PA
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That said..... You can spot Scott by his line-backer build & Y93 skull. (Sorry, Scott I had too. )
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