Moparts
ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL
Posted By: Anonymous
ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/24/10 08:22 PM
Please do not comment in this post, take the debate to another post, please just vote.
Here is a link to the ICCA homepage for those that want more information on this venue.
http://www.iccahome.org/This is not just a question/poll for people that want to participate in OEM competition, but for those that like going to these shows to see correct cars for the purpose of enjoyment and comparing these cars to their own.
So everyone vote.
Regional shows with this format will allow people that can't afford the time or money to make what is a long trip for them to the Nationals to also have their cars judged under the same criteria and compete with cars from across the nation.
Who would be in favor of changing the current Mopar Nationals judging format to the ICCA format and also allow it to create regional judging for national competition?
NOTE: I wanted this to end in 30 days but I see that the poll shows no end indicated. I don't know how to change this??
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/25/10 04:59 PM
ttt
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/29/10 03:52 AM
up
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/29/10 04:57 PM
Your knowledge of Polls is about as accurate as your interest in the OE Judging Program itself. You forgot to include one major aspect into the equation. Before anyone should be allowed to vote they need to have went through the OE judging program. Only those who have been involved with the program will have any VALID input. It is worthless to ask opinions from those who have never been involved with OE program and have no specific or personal criteria in which to base their vote!?! With that said, how many who have voted here have actually went though the OE Judging program?
Maybe after this Poll you can start another one and petition to the Harvard Law School as to whether they should change their Law program because you don't understand it!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/29/10 10:47 PM
Quote:
Your knowledge of Polls is about as accurate as your interest in the OE Judging Program itself. You forgot to include one major aspect into the equation. Before anyone should be allowed to vote they need to have went through the OE judging program. Only those who have been involved with the program will have any VALID input. It is worthless to ask opinions from those who have never been involved with OE program and have no specific or personal criteria in which to base their vote!?! With that said, how many who have voted here have actually went though the OE Judging program?
Maybe after this Poll you can start another one and petition to the Harvard Law School as to whether they should change their Law program because you don't understand it!
So you think those are the only people that have enough understanding of this to vote on what they think? Or do you want to do the thinking for them?
It sounds to me like you are afraid of a change here and would like to keep things amongst a few croonies.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/29/10 11:26 PM
Quote:
So you think those are the only people that have enough understanding of this to vote on what they think?....It sounds to me like you are afraid of a change here and would like to keep things amongst a few croonies.
Now really Darryl....think about it! How could ANYONE other than a person involved in the OE program be aware of changes that might need to be made? How could someone that was NEVER involved with the OE process, actually offer any type of valid opinion? Let me simplify this a little further for you Darryl. Why not POLL a group of Men and ask if their pantyhose feel uncomfortable and creep up on them when they sit down?! Now, you might actually get a couple of replies BUT the best group of people to ask that type of question would probably be Women.....don't you think? Why ask a Dog what it is like to use a Kitty Litter Box? Use a little common sense Darryl! It would also be very similar to someone fabricating fake build sheets and not having any knowledge of the Chrysler part numbering system. Would you POLL those people for crucial information about build sheets if they didn't know the specifics? Does THAT help to make it a little clearer for you?
....that should actually be "cronies" Darryl, not "croonies"!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/30/10 03:11 PM
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Quote:
So you think those are the only people that have enough understanding of this to vote on what they think?....It sounds to me like you are afraid of a change here and would like to keep things amongst a few croonies.
Now really Darryl....think about it! How could ANYONE other than a person involved in the OE program be aware of changes that might need to be made? How could someone that was NEVER involved with the OE process, actually offer any type of valid opinion? Let me simplify this a little further for you Darryl. Why not POLL a group of Men and ask if their pantyhose feel uncomfortable and creep up on them when they sit down?! Now, you might actually get a couple of replies BUT the best group of people to ask that type of question would probably be Women.....don't you think? Why ask a Dog what it is like to use a Kitty Litter Box? Use a little common sense Darryl! It would also be very similar to someone fabricating fake build sheets and not having any knowledge of the Chrysler part numbering system. Would you POLL those people for crucial information about build sheets if they didn't know the specifics? Does THAT help to make it a little clearer for you?
....that should actually be "cronies" Darryl, not "croonies"!
Apparently you seem to think that spectators or people that might be interested in having their cars judged in this format don't have anything on the ball then.
If you go to the other post arguing about this, you will see that some of my intitial comments were based on people that had problems with this judging format 10 years ago before you addmittedly were not even on the scene, so WHO really knows what about what?
BTW, thanks for correcting my spelling I KNOW you have never made a typo or mistake. 
Posted By: hemi68charger
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/30/10 04:19 PM
Is the OE program some form of a secret Mopar cult?
Is there a distance ed. program or an in-residence program? Is the group comprised of by-invitation-only individuals?
I have browsed and searched through the ICCA, Int. site and haven't found anything on course work or a program. I do see familiar names to me of which some I know personally either through various discussion boards or in person. I can see that the support group has a plethora of knowledge when it comes to mopars in general.
I'm not trying to be a smart$^#. I personally, with all my restorations, strive to be as correct, or at least know what is correct, as possible. Of course, for me, there are financial restrictions on how far I can go with the actual restorations of my vehicles and/or if I'd prefer something else as a "pseudo-OEM" alternative.
I would LOVE the opportunity to either help restore a car to OEM-correctness if given the chance or acquire/learn what is and/or isn't correct.
Troy
Posted By: cataclysm80
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/30/10 06:07 PM
Quote:
This is not just a question/poll for people that want to participate in OEM competition, but for those that like going to these shows to see correct cars for the purpose of enjoyment and comparing these cars to their own.
So everyone vote.
Regional shows with this format will allow people that can't afford the time or money to make what is a long trip for them to the Nationals to also have their cars judged under the same criteria and compete with cars from across the nation.
I have not yet participated in the current (or any) OE program. I probably won't because of the high cost of parts along with the fact that 2 of my 3 mopars are clones. I also haven't found the time/money so far to travel to the Nationals. Not even to just observe the show. However, I am still VERY interested in what is correct on a car. I'd love to go see/photo/discuss these beautiful mopars. I'm not suggesting canceling the Nationals, but I think if there were regional shows, that it would be easier for people like me to attend the show that is closest to them.
I also think it would be nice if more than just a handful of cars could be OE judged in a year. I know that it is a time consuming process to judge a car in depth like that, so I would be understanding if it cost money to have your car judged. Still, even though I know my cars would not currently make it anywhere even remotely close to OE Gold, It would still be interesting to see them judged in the same fashion. I think the owner of any car being judged like that could learn a lot. Also, it might be fun to compare with your friends, sort of like bench racing.
It looks like there is a disagreement here that initiated in another thread. I don't know anything about that.
The original poster simply asked for everyone's OPINION in a poll. There is no right or wrong answer.
Tav
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/30/10 06:23 PM
quote] I know that it is a time consuming process to judge a car in depth like that, so I would be understanding if it cost money to have your car judged.
Correct, the last car we judged (ICCA) took 3 people approximately 6-7 hours to go over completely. I expect it would take a similar amount of time for the Mopar Nationals judges, they don't publicize the details of their current judging system but I'm pretty sure they already use a somewhat similar system to tally points. We have judged a car that was first OE judged the previous year at the Mopar Nationls, then last year we OE judged a car that was subsequently OE judged at the Nations, the 2 scores using the two independent judging bodies were surprisingly close (within a percentage point or so on each car) and both cars were awarded OE Gold status by both judging bodies. IMO this fact adds legitimacy to both judging bodies even though they may reach similar end results by taking somewhat different paths.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/30/10 08:03 PM
Quote:
quote] I know that it is a time consuming process to judge a car in depth like that, so I would be understanding if it cost money to have your car judged.
Correct, the last car we judged (ICCA) took 3 people approximately 6-7 hours to go over completely. I expect it would take a similar amount of time for the Mopar Nationals judges, they don't publicize the details of their current judging system but I'm pretty sure they already use a somewhat similar system to tally points. We have judged a car that was first OE judged the previous year at the Mopar Nationls, then last year we OE judged a car that was subsequently OE judged at the Nations, the 2 scores using the two independent judging bodies were surprisingly close (within a percentage point or so on each car) and both cars were awarded OE Gold status by both judging bodies. IMO this fact adds legitimacy to both judging bodies even though they may reach similar end results by taking somewhat different paths.
That may all be true, however from what you say above and what I havew heard the judging criteria is not available to the public whih makes it hard to prepare a car without any guidelines for the Nationals. This is EXCATELY what started all of this for me.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/30/10 08:56 PM
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That may all be true, however from what you say above and what I havew (have) heard the judging criteria is not available to the public whih (which) makes it hard to prepare a car without any guidelines for the Nationals. This is EXCATELY (EXACTLY) what started all of this for me.
What guidelines are you referring to Sir Jethro D. Bodine? 
I am preparing for OE judging this year and what guidelines could ANYONE possibly provide to me? Your car? Your friends car? Someone else's car? I can assure you that we have "prepared" quite well because we followed the MANUAL that was provided by the car itself! Did you understand that Einstein? The CAR is the Manual. Why don't you write a Manual on the EXACT pattern that a water balloon will leave when it explodes against a wall?! That is what you are basically asking for! You don't want to understand OE....you want to CHANGE it to become like the rest of the other cookie cutter judging programs. Good Luck!
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/30/10 11:59 PM
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 12:45 AM
Dave summed it all up with these words-The CAR is the Manual!!!
Someone here is completely mis-understanding this whole concept. Maybe you are honestly asking a question, so here goes.
PAINT/BODY-should exhibit the correct sheen & texture as original paint, as well as common pitfalls such as poor leadwork near the rocker panels, runs where common, etc. Car should be painted as a whole vs panel painted. Primer/overspray and undercoating should reflect originality. Dated door hinges etc.
ENGINE-correct color & sheen. Serial # & date coded correctly to car. All components must be dated & part numbered correctly (as in alternators, starters, plug wires, fan blades, clutch fans, belts, hoses, chokes, carbs, fuel pumps, motor mounts, fuel lines, fuel filters, spark plugs, freeze plugs, wire seperators, water pumps, oil pumps, oil pans, oil & water sending units etc!) Air filters must be nos/original.
TRANS-numbers matching & dated correctly, reverse light switch dated & numbered right, case finish correct, visible seals must match orig, linkages all coated correctly, pan/fasteners correct colors & proper, speeedo cable correct for car, etc!
REAREND-dated & marked correctly, painted correctly with backing plates & drums finished appropriately. Correct style u bolts, correct metal finish on all attaching hardware etc!
EXHAUST-complete exhaust original restored, or NOS, mufflers dated & part numbered correctly, correct hangers with fasteners, nos tips (almost a must).
WHEELS/TIRES-Correct part # & dated rims. NOS tires & wheel covers almost a must, dated correctly. Correct wheel weights & valve stem caps.
BUMPERS & TRIM-NOS is about the only thing that cuts it here-judging of the rear side of bumper is why. Rechromed parts generally lose their definition and can easily be spotted vs NOS.
SUSPENSION-NOS or original required, not much leeway here. All part numbers & date codes must match car.
INTERIOR-Original parts or NOS HIGHLY recommended. Painted parts not recommended because few people can get this right! Gauges, wiring, ect has to be original/NOS. Heater box cannot be painted/cleared etc.
ENGINE BAY-All original or NOS, dated & part numbered correctly. Wiring harnesses original or modified repo.
GLASS, LLIGHTS, DECALS,ETC ETC ETC-See where I'm going here? I haven't even touched the surface!
If you can grasp this, just figure a minimum of 1000 hours labor.
Seriously, if it has a part number & date code, it better match and be as delivered.
Now maybe you can understand why judging one of these cars would be impractical in less than 4 hours.
Disclaimer-I'm not responsible for spelling errors, I was abused as a spelling student....
Posted By: sixbbl69
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 01:18 AM
i wondered how long it was going to take before a certain poster would start name calling again. every post sounds like a 5 yr old having a fit.
Posted By: hemi68charger
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 03:09 AM
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... Please tell me that you are NOT like the "other guy" posting here who is waiting around for someone else to do his research and documentation FOR him! 
Dave, I'm sure you remember my LL1 turquoise '68 Hemi Charger R/T project that was posted on here Ad nauseam, I think that speaks volumes of "some" of the stuff I know. Every nut, bolt, spray pattern and plating was a function of me doing it all on my own. It could have been much better. It got to the point where I knew too much and that equated to too many dollars. Needless to say, I was disappointed when I had to make compromises during the restoration. Granted, my education took the form of 30+ years of personal experience, research via factory literature and as of late, the wonderful internet. Soooo, to answer your question, no........ I'm not like anyone else here.
No offense was ever intended at any level regarding this organization. I'm in awe at the amount of information this OE program contains. I was sincere when I asked if there was a class or course. I WASN'T being a smart$^%.
I'll never be able to restore a car to this level, so I'll just keep teaching myself, mentor club members and step aside on this one.......
Cheers,
Troy
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 04:21 AM
Thanks Paul! Since a few still have trouble accepting the FACT that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to offer a Manual for building/judging an OE car, I will try one more time to add a little to your detailed scenario. An OE car is NOT judged against a set of rules or guidelines, it is judged on the basis of correctness as it relates to a factory correct vehicle! Since vehicles were assembled by people they were as INDIVIDUALISTIC in their build characteristics as the people who actually built them. A prime example would be an individual's written signature. Throughout our lifetime there has NEVER been ANYONE who has signed their name the EXACT same way twice! These cars were basically the same with regards to their unique "signature" build characteristics.
There are approximately 3 different ways to approach the OE venue depending on the condition a vehicle exhibits. Some cars are basket cases and no longer have the factory features that were evident when they were new. Some cars have been refurbished and all of their original features were removed when they were incorrectly "modified". If someone chooses to rebuild one of these type vehicles to OE specifications they need to research and document OTHER original vehicles and the characteristics that came on those UNMOLESTED cars. Since there are hundreds of variations to research and document, IT IS UP TO THE OWNER TO SELECT WHICH CORRECT CHARACTERISTICS THEY CHOOSE TO INCORPORATE INTO THEIR VEHICLE RESTORATION. It is not up to the judges or anyone else to decide what original features should be used in the process. IT IS UP TO THE OWNER/RESTORER TO DO THEIR OE HOMEWORK!!! They need to document the original features they researched AND be able to show the judges their documented findings. The third scenario are those cars that are relatively unmolested and still maintain their original features. It is up to the Owner/ Restorer to document all those aspects so the judges can reference and judge the correctness of the Restoration!
What many people do not know is that there is a two or three year waiting list for those who wish to participate in the OE judging program. At the end of every Nationals OE competition the judges start to research data on the NEXT group of OE participants. This can be very tedious because there may be five completely different styles/years of vehicles to research. They start preparing a year in advance to judge the next group of OE cars!! This means that the participants and the judges are BOTH researching the MANY features that could have been found on a factory vehicle! It takes YEARS to be able to document the hundreds of variations that might have been evident on just ONE model of vehicle. When the judging begins, the judges have accumulated enough data to determine if a vehicle exhibits the necessary characteristics to be awarded an OE status. The judging staff spends MONTHS gathering data about a specific vehicle in order to properly judge a car. THEY ALSO REVIEW THE DOCUMENTED VEHICLE INFORMATION (FROM THE PARTICIPANTS) BEFORE THE VEHICLE ARRIVES AT THE SHOW! The judging actually starts BEFORE the car is placed on the lift at the Nationals!! (We will have over 2500 pictures this year for the judges to review and scrutinize before the show.) That is why there will never be a "Manual" that will DICTATE how something "should" be done on EVERY car! There are HUNDREDS of possible variations per vehicle, every variation can be correct and the judges spend years studying these MANY variations so they can accurately judge the cars! It is a tremendous amount of research, documentation and WORK!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 05:16 AM
Quote:
ENGINE BAY
Brother Paul...if you don't mind I would like to use your "engine bay" reference for illustration. Every OE Judge/Restorer knows that there were spots in the engine compartment that exhibited "runs in the paint" due to difficulty in reaching certain areas. The painters held the paint guns on those areas a bit longer trying to get sufficient coverage and "runs in the paint" usually resulted. I have personally researched and documented over 40 original E Body engine compartments and EVERY one of them exhibited a different "spray" and "paint run" pattern. Now which one of those 40+ engine compartments should I have attempted to write a "Manual" about? Keep in mind that the other THOUSANDS that I didn't get to document most certainly exhibited a different paint pattern for EVERY one. Can you imagine having to construct a "Manual" covering just the 1970 E-Body engine compartments and trying to tell the EXACT features that they should ALL exhibit? Come to think of it Paul I forgot the paint mil. variation that existed between those engine compartments! That particular character feature just increased the "variation" multiplier astronomically!
Should we also discuss the different variations and markings that could have come on the rear-ends and third members? Well, of ALL those THOUSANDS of 1970 E Bodies, there were probably.......
Posted By: Alaskan_TA
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 08:03 AM
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i wondered how long it was going to take before a certain poster would start name calling again. every post sounds like a 5 yr old having a fit.
There is an easy solution;
Quote:
*** You are ignoring this user ***
It works & I am sure he will be banned again sooner or later.
Be ready to block his emails also if he contacts you off the board with one of his tirades.
That said, the car is the star when it comes to original OE details, no two cars are / were exactly the same.
Posted By: cataclysm80
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 01:31 PM
Thanks Paul. That was a very good description, and I've learned a few things from it.
Tav
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 01:43 PM
Quote:
Wow......thanks for the "support" Barry! Just remember that my email continues to be open the next time you need a favor!
Dave, I'm pretty sure that wasn't meant for you, I've had similar experiences with the new (now set to "ignore") user.
Posted By: hemi68charger
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 01:53 PM
Quote:
Dave summed it all up with these words-The CAR is the Manual!!!
NO words truer spoken...... I've been lucky enough to have owned a survivor '71 Charger R/T. PERFECT example is the pitch welds of the rocker and hood. Most people don't duplicate the blacked out treatment and when they do, they spray it on. I guess this is an attempt to create a neat and uniform appearance. But, the truth of the matter is someone with a paint brush with black paint applied the treatment... 
At least on this car they did....
Pretty tough duplicating paint brush marks and inconsistencies in paint coverage.
The unfortunate reality, so many of our cars out there have lost their mopar forensic evidence through haphazard restorations or father-time.
Thanks Paul and Dave..
Troy
( and to think I said "I'll step aside")
Posted By: cataclysm80
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 01:59 PM
Quote:
Quote:
ENGINE BAY
Every OE Judge/Restorer knows that there were spots in the engine compartment that exhibited "runs in the paint" due to difficulty in reaching certain areas. The painters held the paint guns on those areas a bit longer trying to get sufficient coverage and "runs in the paint" usually resulted. I have personally researched and documented over 40 original E Body engine compartments and EVERY one of them exhibited a different "spray" and "paint run" pattern.
The above information is very good information. Combined with a little more description of the factory painting process and some way to identify which areas commonly have runs, it may be sufficient to apply paint in an OE manner. I myself understand that it isn't unusual for factory paint jobs to have runs, but I am unfamiliar with which areas on the car commonly have runs. None of my own 3 cars are original paint. My friend down the road owns a body shop. He has 11 E bodies, none with original paint. My friend in town restores mopars professionally (not to an OE level). I haven't seen every car that came through his shop, but I don't recall seeing an original paint E body yet. I can pretty much forget about seeing original paint E bodies at any of the car shows around here. They're not that kind of car shows. A regional type show may allow me to finally be able to see some more original cars to further my car education.
The below information is just plain silly, which I think is the point. Does the OE program really judge the thickness of a cars paint?
Tav
Quote:
Now which one of those 40+ engine compartments should I have attempted to write a "Manual" about? Keep in mind that the other THOUSANDS that I didn't get to document most certainly exhibited a different paint pattern for EVERY one. Can you imagine having to construct a "Manual" covering just the 1970 E-Body engine compartments and trying to tell the EXACT features that they should ALL exhibit? Come to think of it I forgot the paint mil. variation that existed between those engine compartments! That particular character feature just increased the "variation" multiplier astronomically!
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 02:20 PM
Quote:
The above information is very good information. Combined with a little more description of the factory painting process and some way to identify which areas commonly have runs, it may be sufficient to apply paint in an OE manner. I myself understand that it isn't unusual for factory paint jobs to have runs, but I am unfamiliar with which areas on the car commonly have runs. None of my own 3 cars are original paint.
Sounds good on paper, but pretty much impossible to do. Here's just one small example; If you were looking at this fender tag and the surrounding paint, first try to describe it (without the aid of the picture) then try to tell someone how to perfectly replicate it. Good luck! Not to mention that you'll never see the same look twice, it varied from car to car as mentioned above.
Posted By: cataclysm80
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 02:26 PM
Quote:
Some cars are basket cases and no longer have the factory features that were evident when they were new. Some cars have been refurbished and all of their original features were removed when they were incorrectly "modified". If someone chooses to rebuild one of these type vehicles to OE specifications they need to research and document OTHER original vehicles and the characteristics that came on those UNMOLESTED cars. Since there are hundreds of variations to research and document, IT IS UP TO THE OWNER TO SELECT WHICH CORRECT CHARACTERISTICS THEY CHOOSE TO INCORPORATE INTO THEIR VEHICLE RESTORATION. It is not up to the judges or anyone else to decide what original features should be used in the process. IT IS UP TO THE OWNER/RESTORER TO DO THEIR OE HOMEWORK!!! They need to document the original features they researched AND be able to show the judges their documented findings.
That is a good description of the boat I'm in with my cars. None are very original, all have been modified in the past. I need to see other cars and talk with other people that have similar interests in order to learn which features on my cars are original, and which are not. (preferably before I touch anything on them)
Like I said before, two of my cars are clones. I have a 340 'Cuda that is cloned into an AAR. It's the first car I ever restored and I like it a lot. I learned TONS, but of coarse it's no where near OE. Still, I think it would be interesting to have it judged as an AAR. I wouldn't expect it to come anywhere near OE Gold because it's not a real AAR and also for other reasons. I would be very proud if it scored even 70%.
Quote:
What many people do not know is that there is a two or three year waiting list for those who wish to participate in the OE judging program. At the end of every Nationals OE competition the judges start to research data on the NEXT group of OE participants. This can be very tedious because there may be five completely different styles/years of vehicles to research. They start preparing a year in advance to judge the next group of OE cars!! This means that the participants and the judges are BOTH researching the MANY features that could have been found on a factory vehicle! It takes YEARS to be able to document the hundreds of variations that might have been evident on just ONE model of vehicle. When the judging begins, the judges have accumulated enough data to determine if a vehicle exhibits the necessary characteristics to be awarded an OE status. The judging staff spends MONTHS gathering data about a specific vehicle in order to properly judge a car. THEY ALSO REVIEW THE DOCUMENTED VEHICLE INFORMATION (FROM THE PARTICIPANTS) BEFORE THE VEHICLE ARRIVES AT THE SHOW! The judging actually starts BEFORE the car is placed on the lift at the Nationals!! (We will have over 2500 pictures this year for the judges to review and scrutinize before the show.) That is why there will never be a "Manual" that will DICTATE how something "should" be done on EVERY car! There are HUNDREDS of possible variations per vehicle, every variation can be correct and the judges spend years studying these MANY variations so they can accurately judge the cars! It is a tremendous amount of research, documentation and WORK!
Thanks Dave, that was enlightening also. I had no idea the judges had a year to prepare for the judging.
Tav
Posted By: Alaskan_TA
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 04:07 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Wow......thanks for the "support" Barry! Just remember that my email continues to be open the next time you need a favor!
Dave, I'm pretty sure that wasn't meant for you, I've had similar experiences with the new (now set to "ignore") user.
Exactly right.
Dave, that comment was not about you at all. 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 03/31/10 04:51 PM
Quote:
I am unfamiliar with which areas on the car commonly have runs.
Hi Tav,
One area that will almost always have runs (due to the difficulty in reaching it) is the passenger side upper firewall/inner fender well area. That zone usually had some unique representation of paint runs. The Valiant engine compartment was the same way and so was my Challenger. We were able to "scuff" the original paint in the Valiant engine compartment, leave ALL the factory paint "run" patterns so when our thin coat of new paint was applied, it kept the EXACT "run" characteristics that it came with. Not a single paint "flaw" or feature was removed or altered! We even preserved the baked and "bubbled" paint that was puddled in the heads of the attaching fender bolts!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/03/10 06:08 AM
First of all I don't believe the name calling comment was directed at me as I have not called anyone any names.
If you use the "car is the manual" theory, then I guess all cars would be a winner in OEM judging based on using that thought. You have to have a standard to judge against based on what is correct for the majority of the cars built. That really only applies to a very few certain things that can be a identified between factory assembly plant differences, individual line worker things that can sometimes be identified, etc. You will also find that if you check with other makes for OEM judging manuals, they allow for these types of differences, AND that they judge against a standard. For a car as you are preparing of course you are not going to find any to compare it to, as I doubt that there ever has been or ever will be another 4 door Valiant restored or shown in an OEM judging format, so in YOUR case there is never going to be a manual other than your car.
Posted By: DartSportDude
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 12:01 AM
I'm surprised (sort of) at how nasty this and the other related thread have become. Aren't we all in the same hobby, trying to help each other out? Yeah, right.
Anyway, some of us are interested in restoring our cars in a way that satisfies the OE judges. In my case, I've owned my car since the mid-70s, so I am very familiar with how the car came from the factory. I don't see how any judge can dispute a large part of my restoration. But in the end, they make the call. It would be nice to have a better idea of the criteria involved in OE judging.
I spoke with Dave Wise about judging my car a few years ago. His response? There isn't much to go on when it comes to early 70s A-bodies. So, I've just done the best I can, with the information I have from my own car.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 12:17 AM
Quote:
I spoke with Dave Wise about judging my car a few years ago. His response? There isn't much to go on when it comes to early 70s A-bodies. So, I've just done the best I can, with the information I have from my own car.
I saw your car in Vegas, looked VERY nice! Probably the best post 71 A-body I've seen. However, I'd ding you pretty hard for those aftermarket wheels and tires in O.E.
Posted By: DartSportDude
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 02:11 AM
Quote:
I saw your car in Vegas, looked VERY nice! Probably the best post 71 A-body I've seen. However, I'd ding you pretty hard for those aftermarket wheels and tires in O.E.
Hey Scott. You should have stopped to say hi. I thought I'd see you around the Strip. Go easy on me with the Keystones -- I just love 'em too much to swap them for Rallye's. Of course, they'll be the first thing to go if I ever have you guys take a hard look at my car for serious judging! 
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 02:23 AM
Oh I did stop by several times, at the show and at the Canary, but I wouldn't have known you from any of the other 20 people doing circles around your car eyeballing it
Posted By: DartSportDude
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 02:28 AM
Quote:
Oh I did stop by several times, at the show and at the Canary, but I wouldn't have known you from any of the other 20 people doing circles around your car eyeballing it
You should have recognized me -- I was the guy with the yellow Microfiber towel in my hand! Constant cleaning on that car -- two days straight -- thanks to all the stinking wind and dust. What kind of a nut brings two black cars to a show in the desert?? 
Posted By: Alaskan_TA
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 02:29 AM
That said.....
You can spot Scott by his line-backer build & Y93 skull.
(Sorry, Scott I had too.
)
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 03:15 AM
Y93 skull huh? What about my new headlight option?
Posted By: Alaskan_TA
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 03:20 AM
I was not sure how many gallons of gas you come with, so I had to guess.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 03:24 AM
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 06:22 PM
First of all, this is not the proper thread for your constant arguing about this subject. If you read my original post I asked that people only vote and not comment. All respected this until YOU just HAD to post your thoughts. Thanks to you the thread is two pages long and completely off track.
You waste your time on me as I seldom read the your entire know-it-all rambling so save it for someone else that is interested. You seldom reply to what I have actually asked and always take things from context and blow it out of proportion, twist it, and never directly answer the questions I ask of you without some typical rant.
This is the last I will respond to you in this thread so save your answer. I know that will be impossible for you as you seem to always have to have the last word weather it is your thread or someone elses.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/04/10 06:42 PM
Quote:
You seldom reply to what I have actually asked and always take things from context and blow it out of proportion, twist it, and never directly answer the questions I ask of you without some typical rant.
What a joke! Your "POLL" isn't even a "proper" Poll! Why should anyone take heed to your instructions? You have consistently ignored the words of everyone else! Whats the matter Darryl? Does looking in the mirror really bother you that much? The bottom line is that you want the prize but are unwilling to pay the price! Shortcuts and hurry up procedures in an OE Manual....how pathetic! You have been given every statistical fact by those who are involved with the program and STILL can't comprehend a thing.
Why not start a POLL or thread about the Easter Bunny? Today is the perfect day for it and your babbling about other imaginary concepts would be a perfect parallel for the occasion!
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/05/10 11:22 PM
Dave.....You can't reason with the unreasonable, why even bother trying.
Even if you stop posting here you are bound to continue to recieve rhetorical e-mails and PM's, the guy lives in his own little twisted world.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 03:04 AM
Quote:
Even if you stop posting here you are bound to continue to recieve rhetorical e-mails and PM's, the guy lives in his own little twisted world.
Have you received them too? (Sorry this is so long!) Take a look at the one he sent me the other day. No matter how many times you address his questions he acts as if he never hears you and continues to keep blabbering the same garbage over and over and over. He reminds me of Dustin Hoffman when he played "Raymond" in the movie "Rain-Man." I made it absolutely clear that no OE Judges at the Nationals were involved with ANY of the restorations that they judged. This goofball continues to spread incorrect gossip and rumors about the OE program and its purpose. According to Darryl (aka Raymond) the OE judging team is comprised of Roger Gibson, Mauro Brocca, Patrick Lyons, Paul Jacobs, Dave Stuart, Steve Been, Mike Mancini, etc..... This is odd because I am 100% positive that the OE Judging team is made up of Keith Rohm, Matt, Dan and Joy. I can also guarantee that they do not restore ANY of the cars they judge. This guy thinks there is a conspiracy to make the cars more valuable by giving them phony judging awards! I must have missed out on all of that when I entered!
He also so tries to make it sound as if it is some sort of exclusive/secret club. I find that quite peculiar!? I didn't know anyone involved with the OE program in 2003 and simply walked up to the judging team and asked for a sign up sheet to enter in 2005. They politely gave me a form and a sheet telling me what I had to do and I did it! Nothing hard or secret whatsoever.
Notice his last remarks. He obviously wants to make the OE program a NON-OE Program. He apparently is enamored with the Corvette Judging Program which is completely opposite to the Mopar Nationals OE program. He keeps insisting on "Manuals" to use as a guideline. I did a Google search and found MANY manuals on how to restore Mopar vehicles! There was PROJECT CHARGER by Larry Lyles, CHARGER, ROADRUNNER & SUPER BEE RESTORATION GUIDE by Paul Herd, CHALLENGER & BARRACUDA RESTORATION GUIDE by Paul Herd, etc.... There are DOZENS of restoration guides but this guy is too lazy to spend the time to find and research them! Instead he wants to lower the bar so he can sit back and play connect the dots with a "cookie cutter" book about Mopars. When a car is judged in the OE class it is all about THE UNPUBLISHED INDIVIDUAL ASPECTS of the vehicle. Every car has differences that NO MANUAL can provide specific instructions about! THAT IS WHAT MAKES OE JUDGING WHAT IT IS! This guy can't seem to get that SIMPLE point. He doesn't really want to change the OE venue! He just wants to make it blend in with every other judged event. I wonder if he goes into Burger King and demands that they turn themselves into a McDonald's restaurant?! The only person that needs to be open minded here is Darryl! I didn't try to change the OE venue to accommodate my agenda....I simply researched what it was about and did what was necessary to be involved! This poor guy doesn't have an inkling as to what is going on in the OE program. The only person being "pig headed" is Porky Pi...uh... I mean...uh...Darryl.
Enjoy his warped rationale!
"I have been chuckling at how much this thread has been eating at you. I am sure that the voting is just killing you. That is enough for me to see that I am not the only one that is aware of what was/is going on with the Mopar Nationals OEM judging. It is pretty much a joke amongst the rest of the collector car hobby that the awards hold little value to those people because there is no real "standard" that the car is truely judged against. Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."
As I said in the beginning, this was common knowledge before you were ever on the scene. Maybe SOME of it has changed but from the posts on Moparts on this subject in the last month I have to believe that a lot of the things people were complaining about 10 years ago are still a problem today. Go back and look at the questions I asked in all these threads and notice how the responses are PARTIAL to my questions and how people only respond to what has changed and say nothing about the things that are obviously still a problem.
It makes no difference if I or anyone else want to have a car judged in OEM competition or not, everyone that wants to buy a manual to inspect, repair, restore their car for their own satisfaction should be able to buy one. It is this way with other makes so why should the judging criteria for the Mopar Nationals be only for the "secret squirrel club?" There is only one REAL answer to that is there.
Do yourself a favor an look at the NCRS judging format, manuals, and their phylosophy regarding all of this. It is all about what is the best thing for the hobby, not the individual. They judge against a standard and have top and secondary flights of awards so that ALL cars have the potential to receive a top flight award. It seems to me that the Mopar Nationals is all about who has the best judged car for a particular year.
Be a little open minded about this rather that so pig headed."
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 05:16 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Even if you stop posting here you are bound to continue to recieve rhetorical e-mails and PM's, the guy lives in his own little twisted world.
Have you received them too? (Sorry this is so long!) Take a look at the one he sent me the other day. No matter how many times you address his questions he acts as if he never hears you and continues to keep blabbering the same garbage over and over and over. He reminds me of Dustin Hoffman when he played "Raymond" in the movie "Rain-Man." I made it absolutely clear that no OE Judges at the Nationals were involved with ANY of the restorations that they judged. This goofball continues to spread incorrect gossip and rumors about the OE program and its purpose. According to Darryl (aka Raymond) the OE judging team is comprised of Roger Gibson, Mauro Brocca, Patrick Lyons, Paul Jacobs, Dave Stuart, Steve Been, Mike Mancini, etc..... This is odd because I am 100% positive that the OE Judging team is made up of Keith Rohm, Matt, Dan and Joy. I can also guarantee that they do not restore ANY of the cars they judge. This guy thinks there is a conspiracy to make the cars more valuable by giving them phony judging awards! I must have missed out on all of that when I entered!
He also so tries to make it sound as if it is some sort of exclusive/secret club. I find that quite peculiar!? I didn't know anyone involved with the OE program in 2003 and simply walked up to the judging team and asked for a sign up sheet to enter in 2005. They politely gave me a form and a sheet telling me what I had to do and I did it! Nothing hard or secret whatsoever.
Notice his last remarks. He obviously wants to make the OE program a NON-OE Program. He apparently is enamored with the Corvette Judging Program which is completely opposite to the Mopar Nationals OE program. He keeps insisting on "Manuals" to use as a guideline. I did a Google search and found MANY manuals on how to restore Mopar vehicles! There was PROJECT CHARGER by Larry Lyles, CHARGER, ROADRUNNER & SUPER BEE RESTORATION GUIDE by Paul Herd, CHALLENGER & BARRACUDA RESTORATION GUIDE by Paul Herd, etc.... There are DOZENS of restoration guides but this guy is too lazy to spend the time to find and research them! Instead he wants to lower the bar so he can sit back and play connect the dots with a "cookie cutter" book about Mopars. When a car is judged in the OE class it is all about THE UNPUBLISHED INDIVIDUAL ASPECTS of the vehicle. Every car has differences that NO MANUAL can provide specific instructions about! THAT IS WHAT MAKES OE JUDGING WHAT IT IS! This guy can't seem to get that SIMPLE point. He doesn't really want to change the OE venue! He just wants to make it blend in with every other judged event. I wonder if he goes into Burger King and demands that they turn themselves into a McDonald's restaurant?! The only person that needs to be open minded here is Darryl! I didn't try to change the OE venue to accommodate my agenda....I simply researched what it was about and did what was necessary to be involved! This poor guy doesn't have an inkling as to what is going on in the OE program. The only person being "pig headed" is Porky Pi...uh... I mean...uh...Darryl.
Enjoy his warped rationale!
"I have been chuckling at how much this thread has been eating at you. I am sure that the voting is just killing you. That is enough for me to see that I am not the only one that is aware of what was/is going on with the Mopar Nationals OEM judging. It is pretty much a joke amongst the rest of the collector car hobby that the awards hold little value to those people because there is no real "standard" that the car is truely judged against. Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."
As I said in the beginning, this was common knowledge before you were ever on the scene. Maybe SOME of it has changed but from the posts on Moparts on this subject in the last month I have to believe that a lot of the things people were complaining about 10 years ago are still a problem today. Go back and look at the questions I asked in all these threads and notice how the responses are PARTIAL to my questions and how people only respond to what has changed and say nothing about the things that are obviously still a problem.
It makes no difference if I or anyone else want to have a car judged in OEM competition or not, everyone that wants to buy a manual to inspect, repair, restore their car for their own satisfaction should be able to buy one. It is this way with other makes so why should the judging criteria for the Mopar Nationals be only for the "secret squirrel club?" There is only one REAL answer to that is there.
Do yourself a favor an look at the NCRS judging format, manuals, and their phylosophy regarding all of this. It is all about what is the best thing for the hobby, not the individual. They judge against a standard and have top and secondary flights of awards so that ALL cars have the potential to receive a top flight award. It seems to me that the Mopar Nationals is all about who has the best judged car for a particular year.
Be a little open minded about this rather that so pig headed."
THIS IS A BOLD FACE LIE...REPEAT BOLD FACE LIE.
Copy and paste anything I have ever written naming any judges of the Mopar Nationals judges.
You constantly take things out of context and write things that I have never said or written. You sir are A BOLD FACED LIAR. No name calling here, simply stating a FACT. Prove me wrong.
Posted By: hemi68charger
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 12:04 PM
Ah Oh... If the NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society) gets involved, we're all going to get sued for using the term "Survivor" incorrectly......
When one goes to a country bar, don't expect
Zeppelin or
Rush.
Troy
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 03:52 PM
Quote:
THIS IS A BOLD FACE LIE...REPEAT BOLD FACE LIE.
You are either mentally ill or have some form of Dementia. That bold print quote (of yours) that I posted is EXACTLY; word for word; letter for letter what you sent to me in your first of four private messages. No one ever said that you mentioned anyone "specifically" regarding OE judges! Look at your first paragraph in that quote. YOU said that the judges at the Nationals were judging their own work. In order for that to be true, the people I refereed to (Roger Gibson, Mauro Brocca, Patrick Lyons, Paul Jacobs, Dave Stuart, Steve Been, Mike Mancini, etc.....) would have been the judges. THEY are the people who have been restoring the vehicles that get OE judged. Rather than play your little game Darryl why don't you take a moment to clear up and explain what you meant when you said:
"....Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."
Who are you referring to when you say "judges judging cars that THEY restored"? If you read it the way it was written you are saying that the person who restores the car, also judges the car, which would make them an OE judge at the Nationals! 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 04:45 PM
Quote:
Quote:
THIS IS A BOLD FACE LIE...REPEAT BOLD FACE LIE.
You are either mentally ill or have some form of Dementia. That bold print quote (of yours) that I posted is EXACTLY; word for word; letter for letter what you sent to me in your first of four private messages. No one ever said that you mentioned anyone "specifically" regarding OE judges! Look at your first paragraph in that quote. YOU said that the judges at the nationals were judging their own work. In order for that to be true, the people I refereed to (Roger Gibson, Mauro Brocca, Patrick Lyons, Paul Jacobs, Dave Stuart, Steve Been, Mike Mancini, etc.....) would have been the judges. THEY are the people who have been restoring the vehicles that get OE judged. Rather than play your little game Darryl why don't you take a moment to clear up and explain what you meant when you said:
"....Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."
Who are you referring to when you say "judges judging cars that THEY restored"? If you read it the way it was written you are saying that the person who restores the car, also judges the car, which would make them an OE judge at the Nationals!
1. First of all it is NOT exactly what was in that PM as you are trying to portray it as a rant. It was a point by point answer to YOUR PM to me.
2. I never mention ANY name of ANY judge, YOU are the only one that mentioned ANYONE by name. Don't EVER put anything in print again stating I SAID or WROTE it again unless I have, LIAR.
Again, you have missed MY entire point, which is that there should be an available judging manual to those that want to buy one that is the EXACT one used at the Nationals so that people KNOW what and how to prepare their cars for judging. This is all I have been saying from the beginning. You on the other hand have taken it upon yourself to rant on and on about OTHER things. ICCA offers what I am referring to in THEIR judging format and MY poll simply asks if others would like to see the Mopar Nationals switch to that system because the Nationals judging format is not willing to offer a manual for sale.
I am fully aware of the books you mentioned, but does the Mopar Nationals USE their info completely for judging? No of course not.
Posted By: hemi68charger
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 05:30 PM
Darryl,
I think I'll jump in here... I understand what you're trying to convey. I for the longest time tried to find something for the restoration of my '68 Hemi Charger R/T.
But in the mopar world, from what I'm gathering, it's pretty unrealistic to have what the Corvette guys have, or any other brand of car. Seems the Corvette guys look upon the NCRS as gospel along with their "manual". The previously mentioned Mopar literature on "how-to" contain in themselves errors and falsehoods.
MaMopar had many consistencies, but at the same time, there was production line, vendor supply or technique inconsistencies (I won't EVEN tell you about the problems with the Aero-Dodges).
That's where Dave speaks about each car being unique. A person can start off with the books to "point them" in the right direction, but it's up to the individual to educate themselves on their own car, combing through the "mopar" forensics if their lucky enough to have anything and go from there. When I restored my '68 Hemi Charger R/T, I took a plethora of detailed pictures during the complete disassembly (i.e, the undercoating spray pattern in the front fenders, the gap between the end caps and rear lower valance, etc.)
Maybe I'm way off base, but there isn't any clear-cut book from what I can understand. The judges have a criteria that's based and formed from their experiences. Is that anywhere near the truth Dave?
Troy
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 05:39 PM
Quote:
1. First of all it is NOT exactly what was in that PM as you are trying to portray it as a rant. It was a point by point answer to YOUR PM to me.
You are mentally ill Darryl! I NEVER sent you a PM until YOU forwarded the one that I posted! YOU sent the first instigating PM and I posted it EXACTLY the way you sent it. You are a sadistic pathological liar Darryl! That post is WORD for WORD what you sent and not a single letter was changed or altered. Why don't you post my "first" or initial private message Darryl? It would certainly clear up who started or instigated the PM contacts?!
Why didn't you answer the question about who you were talking about when you said;
"Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."
No one ever said that you mentioned a judge specifically by name. ANY SANE PERSON who read your ridiculous rant would conclude that the Judges at the Nationals were ALSO the people who were restoring the cars so they could inflate the value of the vehicles. Have the guts to stand up for what you said! Feel free to post ANYTHING that I sent to you. Unlike yourself, I cover all the ground I walk on. (You now know what I meant when I said you were lazy and "dishonest".)
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 06:02 PM
Quote:
....but there isn't any clear-cut book from what I can understand. The judges have a criteria that's based and formed from their experiences. Is that anywhere near the truth Dave?
Troy
Hi Troy,
Sorry for the direction this has taken but I can't stand a gutless liar who can't stand up for what they have said or done. This moron (Darryl) started sending me private messages and wants everyone to think that I initiated the PMs and also altered what he sent. What a jerk!
To answer your question, the judges are just.....the judges. They don't write manuals or guidelines for the competition because that is not their job. Think of it this way. The judges who judge skating in the Olympics do not write the rules or the skating programs for the contestants that they judge! They judge the skaters on the basis of YEARS of experience as it pertains to the event. They don't tell the skaters what their program should be or how they should perform it. It is up to the skaters to do the work leading up to the Olympic event. The "guidelines" for what is expected of them is similar to the "Manuals" that HAVE been written for these cars. Everyone knows that a restored car should have wheels, suspension parts, glass, interior, tires, exhaust, engine, etc.... The "manuals" that are available provide instructions for how Mopar cars are restored on a basic level. They can't tell you exactly how the details should be as they relate to individualistic features just like an Olympic skating judge doesn't tell the skaters what they should do in their program! It is up to the participants to do the required work as it relates to their performance.
When the Judging is finished at the Nationals, paperwork IS provided that tells what (and why) any deductions were given in ALL the areas. I don't know why these OE judges have suddenly become responsible for providing restoration guides and procedures for doing the participants cars!?! They are only the Judges! They judge vehicles based on their years of experience. They are not baby sitters making sure that everyone is doing what they are suppose to do! That is up to the OE participant. That is why it is a harder venue to be involved with because the responsibilities are on the shoulders of the OE participant!! I hope this helps explain some of the OE specifics.
Posted By: hemi68charger
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 07:36 PM
Quote:
...I hope this helps explain some of the OE specifics.
For me it does.. It's a "competition" that encompasses not only the car, but the person who it is "suppose" to represent. There is usually a couple of people who are involved in the restoration of a car, but it's usually up to the owner of the car to be the project manager, orchestrator, what-have-you. I told the body shop that painted my Hemi Charger how to do the overspray, keep the gaps in the rear valance-to-end cap, etc. It was me..
It's kind of like my wife's baking competition shows; they all have to make a cake and the cake has certain criteria and basic ingredients, but it's how the baker puts it all together that counts. It's up to the baker to figure out what's best and what's not.
Your skating analogy makes perfect sense to me. It would be nice if there was a "Restoring Mopars for Dummies", but there isn't...... So, we have to do our own thing....... After all, for me, it's this challenge that's the fun part and it's places like clubs, Moparts, the Charger Forum and mopar buddies that "teach" us. It's up to our own experience to brush aside the BS and embrace the truisms (for a lack of a better term)
Troy
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 08:40 PM
i have a feeling im gonna regret this, i hope not
does the nationals judging have a judging sheet?
and if so is it available to the public?
wouldnt that provide critera for the judging?
tony
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/06/10 08:55 PM
Quote:
does the nationals judging have a judging sheet? Yes I believe so.
and if so is it available to the public?
No , I don't believe it is
At least there was and it wasn't when I judged, but we've come a long since then. Keep in mind, Last time I judged Rick Berliske's 71 Demon was best in show should tell you something.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/07/10 12:37 AM
[quote Why don't post my "first" or initial private message Darryl? It would certainly clear up who started or instigated the PM contacts?!
Why don't post my "first" or initial private message Darryl? It would certainly clear up who started or instigated the PM contacts?!
I will be happy to if someone will tell me how to display my sent PMs as they don't show up in my "home."
Here is YOUR PM that I was resopnding to point by point of yours.
"Because I or others don't want to COMPETE in OEM judged competition doesn't mean the judging manuals shouldn't be available to all that want to buy them."
Talk about assuming things for others!?! Who are you to determine what would be good or bad for those who HAVE been involved with the program? I came into the Chrysler hobby in 2002. I didn't have a "Manual"! I didn't know the Judges or have a political bond with them! I didn't have anyone but myself and Steve Been working on my cars! So the question is....how did someone as "green" and stupid as me obtain OE Gold two times out of two? According to you, I should never have been able to reach that point. Do you know how moronic you sound when you say that you have never done an OE vehicle, have never been involved with the judging or the venue but feel that there should be changes made?!? Based on what? Some gossip that you heard from other people who are also too lazy to do their own homework? Rather than sit around spouting off a bunch of "hear say" and "gossip", get up and look into the OE scenario for yourself. You REALLY come across foolishly when talk about something you (admittedly) know nothing about. I can assure you Darryl, if there was a way to assemble a "One for all OE Manual" on doing an OE car, I would have made one by now. I have THOUSANDS of hours over the past 8 years researching and documenting factory cars. This Valiant is my last OE project! You know why? Because I realize that if I did ten thousand cars, I would NEVER get to a specific way to instruct anybody on how to do them. Now by all means this is where you need to start arguing with me on how I am wrong because you know more about this subject matter than me.....right? You have never been involved with an OE restoration, have never researched one, have never been through the judging process BUT you are most certainly going to argue and tell me where I am wrong! By all means Darryl, continue to look more like a fool by commenting on things that you (admittedly) know nothing about! OE is different than ANY other show process or judging in the World. Why do you think that there are so few that ever reach the level? Think before you speak! You won't come across like a spoiled little kid demanding more play time.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/07/10 01:59 AM
You are certainly a pathetic pathological Liar Darryl. That was the SECOND PM that I sent to you. It was YOU who instigated the "behind scenes" ordeal by sending the FIRST PM (which I already posted earlier in this thread) and my initial RESPONSE was:
Taking advice from you about OE Judging would be about like taking running advice from a double leg amputee. I will just keep building OE cars while people like you sit back and complain about how the venue isn't fair. (It has certainly worked for me! Then again I haven't minded the WORK!) One more thing Darryl.....you sure have spent a lot of time writing about something you have no interest in. I also liked the one about how you have not been reading my replies! Lazy and dishonest! What an admirable combination of character traits. You should be proud.
THAT was my first PM message sent (in RESPONSE) to you RAIN-MAN....get the facts straight!
Now back to the original question that you keep avoiding. You made the comment in the FIRST instigating PM sent to me so stand by it! What National OE Judges were you referring to (by name) when you stated:
"Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/07/10 03:22 AM
OMG, how is the still going on? It's like someone putting fingernails to a chalkboard.
Hello, hello... this is nothing now but a baited conversation. It's nothing now but waiting to see when someone will blow their top and violate some Moparts posting policy. IMHO, one of the objectives of the original post.
If you keep trying to get the last word in, this game in the sandbox continues to go in circles...Or you could walk away and let certain people play with themselves.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL - 04/07/10 03:49 AM
Hi Steve,
I really appreciate the advice but one thing I have learned on Moparts is that if you let something stand where it is, THAT becomes the accepted reality. I am STILL defending inaccuracies about my Cuda because a couple of jealous individuals decided to make themselves feel better by fabricating stories about it's non-originality status. No More! One thing I will NEVER tolerate is someone trying to twist or misconstrue the facts when they pertain to who or what I am. I really don't care if people think I am "petty" for defending myself. I am totally disgusted that there are people who make it a game to lie and cheat just so they can appear to be the Big Shot! One thing I will never compromise is my integrity or my word. If I am wrong or guilty of something I will step up and take my medicine like a Man. I have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars (literally) trying to better the hobby and when some jerk comes along and tries to undo everything that has been done thus far and calls me a liar when I have been completely honest....well.... lets just say that doesn't sit very well with me. I love what I do and always try to help others when ever they request or need it. I will NEVER back down from any idiot who does their best to ruin things for others. Like I said in the beginning of this post, I will never field another phone call where someone asks why I allowed someone to call me a "liar" about a situation if it wasn't true. Enough is Enough!
Just remember that my email continues to be open the next time you need a favor! 
This OE thing is starting to ruin me. 
I think my good buddy sixbbl69 was actually referring to me Barry. I don't know what the big deal was though?! 
