ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL

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ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650241
03/24/10 04:22 PM 03/24/10 04:22 PM

Anonymous OP
Unregistered

Please do not comment in this post, take the debate to another post, please just vote.

Here is a link to the ICCA homepage for those that want more information on this venue.

http://www.iccahome.org/

This is not just a question/poll for people that want to participate in OEM competition, but for those that like going to these shows to see correct cars for the purpose of enjoyment and comparing these cars to their own.

So everyone vote.

Regional shows with this format will allow people that can't afford the time or money to make what is a long trip for them to the Nationals to also have their cars judged under the same criteria and compete with cars from across the nation.

Who would be in favor of changing the current Mopar Nationals judging format to the ICCA format and also allow it to create regional judging for national competition?

NOTE: I wanted this to end in 30 days but I see that the poll shows no end indicated. I don't know how to change this??

Change the current to ICCA format multiple choice, up to 2 choices
change	62%, 39 Votes
leave it as it is	38%, 24 Votes
Total Votes: 63 Voting on this poll ends: 05/23/24 05:27 PM

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650242 03/25/10 12:59 PM 03/25/10 12:59 PM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	ttt

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650243 03/28/10 11:52 PM 03/28/10 11:52 PM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	up

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650244 03/29/10 12:57 PM 03/29/10 12:57 PM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Your knowledge of Polls is about as accurate as your interest in the OE Judging Program itself. You forgot to include one major aspect into the equation. Before anyone should be allowed to vote they need to have went through the OE judging program. Only those who have been involved with the program will have any VALID input. It is worthless to ask opinions from those who have never been involved with OE program and have no specific or personal criteria in which to base their vote!?! With that said, how many who have voted here have actually went though the OE Judging program? Maybe after this Poll you can start another one and petition to the Harvard Law School as to whether they should change their Law program because you don't understand it!

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650245 03/29/10 06:47 PM 03/29/10 06:47 PM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Quote: Your knowledge of Polls is about as accurate as your interest in the OE Judging Program itself. You forgot to include one major aspect into the equation. Before anyone should be allowed to vote they need to have went through the OE judging program. Only those who have been involved with the program will have any VALID input. It is worthless to ask opinions from those who have never been involved with OE program and have no specific or personal criteria in which to base their vote!?! With that said, how many who have voted here have actually went though the OE Judging program? Maybe after this Poll you can start another one and petition to the Harvard Law School as to whether they should change their Law program because you don't understand it! So you think those are the only people that have enough understanding of this to vote on what they think? Or do you want to do the thinking for them? It sounds to me like you are afraid of a change here and would like to keep things amongst a few croonies.

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650246 03/29/10 07:26 PM 03/29/10 07:26 PM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Quote: So you think those are the only people that have enough understanding of this to vote on what they think?....It sounds to me like you are afraid of a change here and would like to keep things amongst a few croonies. Now really Darryl....think about it! How could ANYONE other than a person involved in the OE program be aware of changes that might need to be made? How could someone that was NEVER involved with the OE process, actually offer any type of valid opinion? Let me simplify this a little further for you Darryl. Why not POLL a group of Men and ask if their pantyhose feel uncomfortable and creep up on them when they sit down?! Now, you might actually get a couple of replies BUT the best group of people to ask that type of question would probably be Women.....don't you think? Why ask a Dog what it is like to use a Kitty Litter Box? Use a little common sense Darryl! It would also be very similar to someone fabricating fake build sheets and not having any knowledge of the Chrysler part numbering system. Would you POLL those people for crucial information about build sheets if they didn't know the specifics? Does THAT help to make it a little clearer for you? ....that should actually be "cronies" Darryl, not "croonies"!

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650247 03/30/10 11:11 AM 03/30/10 11:11 AM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Quote: Quote: So you think those are the only people that have enough understanding of this to vote on what they think?....It sounds to me like you are afraid of a change here and would like to keep things amongst a few croonies. Now really Darryl....think about it! How could ANYONE other than a person involved in the OE program be aware of changes that might need to be made? How could someone that was NEVER involved with the OE process, actually offer any type of valid opinion? Let me simplify this a little further for you Darryl. Why not POLL a group of Men and ask if their pantyhose feel uncomfortable and creep up on them when they sit down?! Now, you might actually get a couple of replies BUT the best group of people to ask that type of question would probably be Women.....don't you think? Why ask a Dog what it is like to use a Kitty Litter Box? Use a little common sense Darryl! It would also be very similar to someone fabricating fake build sheets and not having any knowledge of the Chrysler part numbering system. Would you POLL those people for crucial information about build sheets if they didn't know the specifics? Does THAT help to make it a little clearer for you? ....that should actually be "cronies" Darryl, not "croonies"! Apparently you seem to think that spectators or people that might be interested in having their cars judged in this format don't have anything on the ball then. If you go to the other post arguing about this, you will see that some of my intitial comments were based on people that had problems with this judging format 10 years ago before you addmittedly were not even on the scene, so WHO really knows what about what? BTW, thanks for correcting my spelling I KNOW you have never made a typo or mistake.

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650248 03/30/10 12:19 PM 03/30/10 12:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,828 Houston, Tx hemi68charger master
hemi68charger master Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,828 Houston, Tx	Is the OE program some form of a secret Mopar cult? Is there a distance ed. program or an in-residence program? Is the group comprised of by-invitation-only individuals? I have browsed and searched through the ICCA, Int. site and haven't found anything on course work or a program. I do see familiar names to me of which some I know personally either through various discussion boards or in person. I can see that the support group has a plethora of knowledge when it comes to mopars in general. I'm not trying to be a smart$^#. I personally, with all my restorations, strive to be as correct, or at least know what is correct, as possible. Of course, for me, there are financial restrictions on how far I can go with the actual restorations of my vehicles and/or if I'd prefer something else as a "pseudo-OEM" alternative. I would LOVE the opportunity to either help restore a car to OEM-correctness if given the chance or acquire/learn what is and/or isn't correct. Troy Troy Houston Mopar Connection Club '69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650249 03/30/10 01:27 PM 03/30/10 01:27 PM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Quote: ...you seem to think...I KNOW you have never made.... You don't seem to have a problem telling others what they "think" or what you seem to think you "know" about them. That appears to be your reoccurring pitfall/weakness Darryl. Opinions and nothing to back them up! What do you predict that I will be "thinking" at 4 PM today Darryl? Rather than take the time to research anything you simply make assumptions based on your personal feelings. Like I said Darryl....your demeanor does not appear to be conducive to the OE type of mindset. FACTS and RESEARCH....not incorrect personal feelings are what make up the program. (Make sure when you catch one of my "typo mistakes" you make it public!)

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650250 03/30/10 02:07 PM 03/30/10 02:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,165 Florida C cataclysm80 master
cataclysm80 master C Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,165 Florida	Quote: This is not just a question/poll for people that want to participate in OEM competition, but for those that like going to these shows to see correct cars for the purpose of enjoyment and comparing these cars to their own. So everyone vote. Regional shows with this format will allow people that can't afford the time or money to make what is a long trip for them to the Nationals to also have their cars judged under the same criteria and compete with cars from across the nation. I have not yet participated in the current (or any) OE program. I probably won't because of the high cost of parts along with the fact that 2 of my 3 mopars are clones. I also haven't found the time/money so far to travel to the Nationals. Not even to just observe the show. However, I am still VERY interested in what is correct on a car. I'd love to go see/photo/discuss these beautiful mopars. I'm not suggesting canceling the Nationals, but I think if there were regional shows, that it would be easier for people like me to attend the show that is closest to them. I also think it would be nice if more than just a handful of cars could be OE judged in a year. I know that it is a time consuming process to judge a car in depth like that, so I would be understanding if it cost money to have your car judged. Still, even though I know my cars would not currently make it anywhere even remotely close to OE Gold, It would still be interesting to see them judged in the same fashion. I think the owner of any car being judged like that could learn a lot. Also, it might be fun to compare with your friends, sort of like bench racing. It looks like there is a disagreement here that initiated in another thread. I don't know anything about that. The original poster simply asked for everyone's OPINION in a poll. There is no right or wrong answer. Tav

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL [Re: hemi68charger] #650251 03/30/10 02:11 PM 03/30/10 02:11 PM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Quote: Is the OE program some form of a secret Mopar cult? Is there a distance ed. program or an in-residence program? Is the group comprised of by-invitation-only individuals?...... I would LOVE the opportunity to either help restore a car to OEM-correctness if given the chance or acquire/learn what is and/or isn't correct. Troy No secrets with anything Troy! The program is open for everyone who wishes to throw their hat into the ring! The problem is that those who choose NOT to be involved, expect someone else to do THEIR research on THEIR vehicle in order to expedite THEIR project. How can anyone that doesn't know a person's vehicle tell them the unique build characteristics that is should or should not employ? It would be like asking a complete stranger to tell you the personal characteristics of YOUR kids.....who they have never met! There ARE manuals and information to instruct a person "HOW TO" build these cars! They tell you how to put the interior together or how to set the spray gun when you paint the car or how to put the suspension together, etc..... For the hundredth time....HOW CAN A MANUAL INSTRUCT ANYONE ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS THAT ARE COMPLETELY UNIQUE TO THAT PARTICULAR VEHICLE!!!! Why is it so difficult to understand that aspect of the scenario? THAT alone is what makes the OE program what it is. Lets try this analogy. You are going on Vacation and refer to a Map of the United States for your trip. (The Map represents the Manuals that ARE available for the "protocol" aspects of how to restore a car.) Would anyone gripe and complain because the map did not tell you at what point you would experience having a flat tire, or one of the kids needing to stop for a restroom break, or someone getting hungry and wanting to stop a little early for lunch, or the detour in a road because it was washed out due to a storm that occurred the night before? I could go on and on! Why is everyone asking for things that cannot be instructed or provided in a "Manual"? The "OE part" of the equation is what you encounter while documenting YOUR vehicle! Those aspects cannot be referenced just like a road map won't tell you where and when you will have a flat tire during your trip! Apparently there is a HUGE misunderstanding as to what the OE program entails. The UNIQUE work that is performed is completely up to the judged PARTICIPANT. No one can tell anybody else what specific characteristics THEIR vehicle should exhibit. The car IS what it IS! I didn't understand what you meant when you stated, " I would LOVE the opportunity to either help restore a car to OEM-correctness if given the chance or acquire/learn what is and/or isn't correct." Who is holding you back from doing what it takes to research, document and restore your OE vehicle?!?!? Please tell me that you are NOT like the "other guy" posting here who is waiting around for someone else to do his research and documentation FOR him!

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL [Re: cataclysm80] #650252 03/30/10 02:23 PM 03/30/10 02:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 42,714 Spokane Washington ScottSmith_Harms Mr Wizzard
ScottSmith_Harms Mr Wizzard Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 42,714 Spokane Washington	quote] I know that it is a time consuming process to judge a car in depth like that, so I would be understanding if it cost money to have your car judged. Correct, the last car we judged (ICCA) took 3 people approximately 6-7 hours to go over completely. I expect it would take a similar amount of time for the Mopar Nationals judges, they don't publicize the details of their current judging system but I'm pretty sure they already use a somewhat similar system to tally points. We have judged a car that was first OE judged the previous year at the Mopar Nationls, then last year we OE judged a car that was subsequently OE judged at the Nations, the 2 scores using the two independent judging bodies were surprisingly close (within a percentage point or so on each car) and both cars were awarded OE Gold status by both judging bodies. IMO this fact adds legitimacy to both judging bodies even though they may reach similar end results by taking somewhat different paths.

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #650253 03/30/10 04:03 PM 03/30/10 04:03 PM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Quote: quote] I know that it is a time consuming process to judge a car in depth like that, so I would be understanding if it cost money to have your car judged. Correct, the last car we judged (ICCA) took 3 people approximately 6-7 hours to go over completely. I expect it would take a similar amount of time for the Mopar Nationals judges, they don't publicize the details of their current judging system but I'm pretty sure they already use a somewhat similar system to tally points. We have judged a car that was first OE judged the previous year at the Mopar Nationls, then last year we OE judged a car that was subsequently OE judged at the Nations, the 2 scores using the two independent judging bodies were surprisingly close (within a percentage point or so on each car) and both cars were awarded OE Gold status by both judging bodies. IMO this fact adds legitimacy to both judging bodies even though they may reach similar end results by taking somewhat different paths. That may all be true, however from what you say above and what I havew heard the judging criteria is not available to the public whih makes it hard to prepare a car without any guidelines for the Nationals. This is EXCATELY what started all of this for me.

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650254 03/30/10 04:56 PM 03/30/10 04:56 PM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Quote: That may all be true, however from what you say above and what I havew (have) heard the judging criteria is not available to the public whih (which) makes it hard to prepare a car without any guidelines for the Nationals. This is EXCATELY (EXACTLY) what started all of this for me. What guidelines are you referring to Sir Jethro D. Bodine? I am preparing for OE judging this year and what guidelines could ANYONE possibly provide to me? Your car? Your friends car? Someone else's car? I can assure you that we have "prepared" quite well because we followed the MANUAL that was provided by the car itself! Did you understand that Einstein? The CAR is the Manual. Why don't you write a Manual on the EXACT pattern that a water balloon will leave when it explodes against a wall?! That is what you are basically asking for! You don't want to understand OE....you want to CHANGE it to become like the rest of the other cookie cutter judging programs. Good Luck!

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650255 03/30/10 07:59 PM 03/30/10 07:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 21,833 Kirkland, Washington Pacnorthcuda Too Many Posts
Pacnorthcuda Too Many Posts Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 21,833 Kirkland, Washington

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #650256 03/30/10 08:45 PM 03/30/10 08:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,039 INDIANA P Paul Jacobs super stock
Paul Jacobs super stock P Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,039 INDIANA	Dave summed it all up with these words-The CAR is the Manual!!! Someone here is completely mis-understanding this whole concept. Maybe you are honestly asking a question, so here goes. PAINT/BODY-should exhibit the correct sheen & texture as original paint, as well as common pitfalls such as poor leadwork near the rocker panels, runs where common, etc. Car should be painted as a whole vs panel painted. Primer/overspray and undercoating should reflect originality. Dated door hinges etc. ENGINE-correct color & sheen. Serial # & date coded correctly to car. All components must be dated & part numbered correctly (as in alternators, starters, plug wires, fan blades, clutch fans, belts, hoses, chokes, carbs, fuel pumps, motor mounts, fuel lines, fuel filters, spark plugs, freeze plugs, wire seperators, water pumps, oil pumps, oil pans, oil & water sending units etc!) Air filters must be nos/original. TRANS-numbers matching & dated correctly, reverse light switch dated & numbered right, case finish correct, visible seals must match orig, linkages all coated correctly, pan/fasteners correct colors & proper, speeedo cable correct for car, etc! REAREND-dated & marked correctly, painted correctly with backing plates & drums finished appropriately. Correct style u bolts, correct metal finish on all attaching hardware etc! EXHAUST-complete exhaust original restored, or NOS, mufflers dated & part numbered correctly, correct hangers with fasteners, nos tips (almost a must). WHEELS/TIRES-Correct part # & dated rims. NOS tires & wheel covers almost a must, dated correctly. Correct wheel weights & valve stem caps. BUMPERS & TRIM-NOS is about the only thing that cuts it here-judging of the rear side of bumper is why. Rechromed parts generally lose their definition and can easily be spotted vs NOS. SUSPENSION-NOS or original required, not much leeway here. All part numbers & date codes must match car. INTERIOR-Original parts or NOS HIGHLY recommended. Painted parts not recommended because few people can get this right! Gauges, wiring, ect has to be original/NOS. Heater box cannot be painted/cleared etc. ENGINE BAY-All original or NOS, dated & part numbered correctly. Wiring harnesses original or modified repo. GLASS, LLIGHTS, DECALS,ETC ETC ETC-See where I'm going here? I haven't even touched the surface! If you can grasp this, just figure a minimum of 1000 hours labor. Seriously, if it has a part number & date code, it better match and be as delivered. Now maybe you can understand why judging one of these cars would be impractical in less than 4 hours. Disclaimer-I'm not responsible for spelling errors, I was abused as a spelling student....

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650257 03/30/10 09:18 PM 03/30/10 09:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,322 S sixbbl69 top fuel
sixbbl69 top fuel S Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,322	i wondered how long it was going to take before a certain poster would start name calling again. every post sounds like a 5 yr old having a fit.

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL #650258 03/30/10 11:09 PM 03/30/10 11:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,828 Houston, Tx hemi68charger master
hemi68charger master Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,828 Houston, Tx	Quote: ... Please tell me that you are NOT like the "other guy" posting here who is waiting around for someone else to do his research and documentation FOR him! Dave, I'm sure you remember my LL1 turquoise '68 Hemi Charger R/T project that was posted on here Ad nauseam, I think that speaks volumes of "some" of the stuff I know. Every nut, bolt, spray pattern and plating was a function of me doing it all on my own. It could have been much better. It got to the point where I knew too much and that equated to too many dollars. Needless to say, I was disappointed when I had to make compromises during the restoration. Granted, my education took the form of 30+ years of personal experience, research via factory literature and as of late, the wonderful internet. Soooo, to answer your question, no........ I'm not like anyone else here. No offense was ever intended at any level regarding this organization. I'm in awe at the amount of information this OE program contains. I was sincere when I asked if there was a class or course. I WASN'T being a smart$^%. I'll never be able to restore a car to this level, so I'll just keep teaching myself, mentor club members and step aside on this one....... Cheers, Troy Last edited by hemi68charger; 03/30/10 11:11 PM. Troy Houston Mopar Connection Club '69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL [Re: Paul Jacobs] #650259 03/31/10 12:21 AM 03/31/10 12:21 AM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Thanks Paul! Since a few still have trouble accepting the FACT that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to offer a Manual for building/judging an OE car, I will try one more time to add a little to your detailed scenario. An OE car is NOT judged against a set of rules or guidelines, it is judged on the basis of correctness as it relates to a factory correct vehicle! Since vehicles were assembled by people they were as INDIVIDUALISTIC in their build characteristics as the people who actually built them. A prime example would be an individual's written signature. Throughout our lifetime there has NEVER been ANYONE who has signed their name the EXACT same way twice! These cars were basically the same with regards to their unique "signature" build characteristics. There are approximately 3 different ways to approach the OE venue depending on the condition a vehicle exhibits. Some cars are basket cases and no longer have the factory features that were evident when they were new. Some cars have been refurbished and all of their original features were removed when they were incorrectly "modified". If someone chooses to rebuild one of these type vehicles to OE specifications they need to research and document OTHER original vehicles and the characteristics that came on those UNMOLESTED cars. Since there are hundreds of variations to research and document, IT IS UP TO THE OWNER TO SELECT WHICH CORRECT CHARACTERISTICS THEY CHOOSE TO INCORPORATE INTO THEIR VEHICLE RESTORATION. It is not up to the judges or anyone else to decide what original features should be used in the process. IT IS UP TO THE OWNER/RESTORER TO DO THEIR OE HOMEWORK!!! They need to document the original features they researched AND be able to show the judges their documented findings. The third scenario are those cars that are relatively unmolested and still maintain their original features. It is up to the Owner/ Restorer to document all those aspects so the judges can reference and judge the correctness of the Restoration! What many people do not know is that there is a two or three year waiting list for those who wish to participate in the OE judging program. At the end of every Nationals OE competition the judges start to research data on the NEXT group of OE participants. This can be very tedious because there may be five completely different styles/years of vehicles to research. They start preparing a year in advance to judge the next group of OE cars!! This means that the participants and the judges are BOTH researching the MANY features that could have been found on a factory vehicle! It takes YEARS to be able to document the hundreds of variations that might have been evident on just ONE model of vehicle. When the judging begins, the judges have accumulated enough data to determine if a vehicle exhibits the necessary characteristics to be awarded an OE status. The judging staff spends MONTHS gathering data about a specific vehicle in order to properly judge a car. THEY ALSO REVIEW THE DOCUMENTED VEHICLE INFORMATION (FROM THE PARTICIPANTS) BEFORE THE VEHICLE ARRIVES AT THE SHOW! The judging actually starts BEFORE the car is placed on the lift at the Nationals!! (We will have over 2500 pictures this year for the judges to review and scrutinize before the show.) That is why there will never be a "Manual" that will DICTATE how something "should" be done on EVERY car! There are HUNDREDS of possible variations per vehicle, every variation can be correct and the judges spend years studying these MANY variations so they can accurately judge the cars! It is a tremendous amount of research, documentation and WORK!

Re: ICCA JUDGING AT THE NATIONALS AND REGIONAL-- POLL [Re: Paul Jacobs] #650260 03/31/10 01:16 AM 03/31/10 01:16 AM
A Anonymous OP Unregistered
Anonymous OP Unregistered A	Quote: ENGINE BAY Brother Paul...if you don't mind I would like to use your "engine bay" reference for illustration. Every OE Judge/Restorer knows that there were spots in the engine compartment that exhibited "runs in the paint" due to difficulty in reaching certain areas. The painters held the paint guns on those areas a bit longer trying to get sufficient coverage and "runs in the paint" usually resulted. I have personally researched and documented over 40 original E Body engine compartments and EVERY one of them exhibited a different "spray" and "paint run" pattern. Now which one of those 40+ engine compartments should I have attempted to write a "Manual" about? Keep in mind that the other THOUSANDS that I didn't get to document most certainly exhibited a different paint pattern for EVERY one. Can you imagine having to construct a "Manual" covering just the 1970 E-Body engine compartments and trying to tell the EXACT features that they should ALL exhibit? Come to think of it Paul I forgot the paint mil. variation that existed between those engine compartments! That particular character feature just increased the "variation" multiplier astronomically! Should we also discuss the different variations and markings that could have come on the rear-ends and third members? Well, of ALL those THOUSANDS of 1970 E Bodies, there were probably.......

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