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Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
#601760
02/02/10 05:12 PM
02/02/10 05:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
OP
Taking time off to work on my car
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OP
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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How many OEM 440 blocks have you encountered with significant lifter bore issues? As in either lifter bore alignment or bore sizing issues bad enough to require bushings? As many of the engines were on the road for thousands of miles, I'd think that wouldn't be a frequent problem. However, considering the difference in how critical lifter-to-cam alignment is with more radical lobes, have I been blissfully ignorant?  FWIW, one of my blocks has the lifter bores bushed. But that was what my former engine builder did when the lifter bores were scored so badly after I wiped a cam big-time from too much spring pressure... when he selected the springs... and ran about 40#s more open pressure than the cam grinder specified.  But that's a story for another time... 
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: BradH]
#601761
02/02/10 05:38 PM
02/02/10 05:38 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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All of the stock Mopar, regardless of type, SB, BB or Hemi, have been big. 002+. One SB had a issue on one lifter bore alignment(slighly we think), which was found out after wiping out the same lobe twice in 50,000 miles  It doesn't hurt to mock up the block and lifters your going to use before deciding if it needs fixing or not  
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: Jimi_Vignogna]
#601766
02/02/10 08:59 PM
02/02/10 08:59 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
i have lifter bore bushed 100's of big and small block mopar blocks, they all have horrible machining from ma mopar, any thing that is more than a street car rebuild should have it done.
 I WILL NOT run a factory block without bushing the lifter bores.
Think about it this way. You can have the most accurate cam in the world only to screw up the timing events between the valve and piston position in the cylinder.
Degree every lobe in a production block and chart it. Then take the same cam and degree every lobe in a block that has been properly bushed and
Why bother with a indexed crank if you don't index the lifter to the cam
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: 8secDart]
#601768
02/02/10 09:53 PM
02/02/10 09:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.
I have bushed hundreds of them all. I can plot the bore locations with the renishaw probe and show you just how bad they are. I can plot the locations of both the top and bottom of the bore and calculate the error in the angle. As Jimi says, they are all horrible. What most fail to consider is that with the current crop of fast rate of lift flat tappet cams putting the lobe out right to the edge of the lifter, the block geometry has to be as precise as the cam is ground. Ma Mopar was the WORST of the big three as far as factory machining.
Now imagine how many flat tappet failures have been blamed on the cam and or lifters when the block is really the culprit.  I laugh when I'm at COMP cams looking at how accurate the cams are ground knowing they'll be put in some 40yr old POS block  And if you think stuffing a roller in is the fix, think about how moving the bore .020 from the center line and changing the angle of the lifter 1 degree affects valve timing events Now imagine having 16 different variations of that and look at the incremental power you are leaving on the table. 
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: 8secDart]
#601769
02/02/10 09:58 PM
02/02/10 09:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.
We correct the location of each bore on the camshaft centerline, the distance from the lead lifter to the cam thrust face after trueing the cam thrust face to be perpindicular to the crank centerline, the lifter bore to lifter bore spacing, and the angularity of all the lifter bores. If you just stuff bushing in the same hole or bore a block with the new bore in the same location as the old bore you're doing it wrong.
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: 8secDart]
#601772
02/02/10 10:06 PM
02/02/10 10:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
I stand corrected.I have bushed my Hemi stuff because of the money I had in them.NO $hit I have never had a wedge bushed and that is a lot of wedges.I know what you guys are saying about cam timing But at 8,000rpms that all goes out the window.
Maybe with a 3" base circle and 1" diameter pushrods we could kill the flex at 8g's 
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: CRE2004]
#601774
02/02/10 10:45 PM
02/02/10 10:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256
Salisbury North Carolina
8secDart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256
Salisbury North Carolina
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Quote:
Quote:
I stand corrected.I have bushed my Hemi stuff because of the money I had in them.NO $hit I have never had a wedge bushed and that is a lot of wedges.I know what you guys are saying about cam timing But at 8,000rpms that all goes out the window.
Maybe with a 3" base circle and 1" diameter pushrods we could kill the flex at 8g's [/quo
That would be great.LOL
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: CRE2004]
#601775
02/02/10 10:59 PM
02/02/10 10:59 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
I have bushed hundreds of them all. I can plot the bore locations with the renishaw probe and show you just how bad they are. I can plot the locations of both the top and bottom of the bore and calculate the error in the angle. As Jimi says, they are all horrible. What most fail to consider is that with the current crop of fast rate of lift flat tappet cams putting the lobe out right to the edge of the lifter, the block geometry has to be as precise as the cam is ground. Ma Mopar was the WORST of the big three as far as factory machining.
Now imagine how many flat tappet failures have been blamed on the cam and or lifters when the block is really the culprit. I laugh when I'm at COMP cams looking at how accurate the cams are ground knowing they'll be put in some 40yr old POS block And if you think stuffing a roller in is the fix, think about how moving the bore .020 from the center line and changing the angle of the lifter 1 degree affects valve timing events Now imagine having 16 different variations of that and look at the incremental power you are leaving on the table.
CRE2004  Thank you for taking the time!
Exactly what I was trying to say and then some AHMEN!
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: 8secDart]
#601776
02/02/10 11:14 PM
02/02/10 11:14 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
I know what you guys are saying about cam timing But at 8,000rpms that all goes out the window.
No it makes it MORE IMPORTANT.
Does your rotating assembly balance go out the window at 8,000 rpm's 
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: 8secDart]
#601777
02/02/10 11:34 PM
02/02/10 11:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
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Quote:
I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.
Im not either a smart a$$, but if the bushing you are pressing in is thick enough you can accually manipulate the angle slightly, and then finish true the bores after the accual desired angle is achieved couldnt you?
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: Moparnut426]
#601778
02/02/10 11:45 PM
02/02/10 11:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
Quote:
I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.
Im not either a smart a$$, but if the bushing you are pressing in is thick enough you can accually manipulate the angle slightly, and then finish true the bores after the accual desired angle is achieved couldnt you?
You could do it that way but any follow up work work such as replacing a damaged bushing in the future is pure guess work. By correcting the bore location and geometry up front, you can pull out the bad bushing, pop in new ones, hone and go.
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