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Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?

Posted By: BradH

Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/02/10 09:12 PM

How many OEM 440 blocks have you encountered with significant lifter bore issues? As in either lifter bore alignment or bore sizing issues bad enough to require bushings?

As many of the engines were on the road for thousands of miles, I'd think that wouldn't be a frequent problem. However, considering the difference in how critical lifter-to-cam alignment is with more radical lobes, have I been blissfully ignorant?

FWIW, one of my blocks has the lifter bores bushed. But that was what my former engine builder did when the lifter bores were scored so badly after I wiped a cam big-time from too much spring pressure... when he selected the springs... and ran about 40#s more open pressure than the cam grinder specified. But that's a story for another time...
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/02/10 09:38 PM

All of the stock Mopar, regardless of type, SB, BB or Hemi, have been big. 002+. One SB had a issue on one lifter bore alignment(slighly we think), which was found out after wiping out the same lobe twice in 50,000 miles It doesn't hurt to mock up the block and lifters your going to use before deciding if it needs fixing or not
Posted By: BradH

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/02/10 09:49 PM

It would be cool if there was some trick tool / fixture that could be inserted into each lifter bore and "rolled" up against the respective cam lobe to check the tracking pattern, etc.
Posted By: sam64

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/02/10 11:08 PM

or the famous only 1 oversize lifter from ma mopar,will sure screw things up.
Posted By: Jimi_Vignogna

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 12:21 AM

i have lifter bore bushed 100's of big and small block mopar blocks, they all have horrible machining from ma mopar, any thing that is more than a street car rebuild should have it done.
Posted By: 8secDart

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 12:48 AM

I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 12:59 AM

Quote:

i have lifter bore bushed 100's of big and small block mopar blocks, they all have horrible machining from ma mopar, any thing that is more than a street car rebuild should have it done.



I WILL NOT run a factory block without bushing the lifter bores.

Think about it this way. You can have the most accurate cam in the world only to screw up the timing events between the valve and piston position in the cylinder.

Degree every lobe in a production block and chart it. Then take the same cam and degree every lobe in a block that has been properly bushed and

Why bother with a indexed crank if you don't index the lifter to the cam
Posted By: '72CudaRacer

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 01:13 AM

Whats the procedure for doing this? How to check? and how to fix/bush?
Posted By: CRE2004

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 01:53 AM

Quote:

I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.


I have bushed hundreds of them all. I can plot the bore locations with the renishaw probe and show you just how bad they are. I can plot the locations of both the top and bottom of the bore and calculate the error in the angle. As Jimi says, they are all horrible. What most fail to consider is that with the current crop of fast rate of lift flat tappet cams putting the lobe out right to the edge of the lifter, the block geometry has to be as precise as the cam is ground. Ma Mopar was the WORST of the big three as far as factory machining.
Now imagine how many flat tappet failures have been blamed on the cam and or lifters when the block is really the culprit. I laugh when I'm at COMP cams looking at how accurate the cams are ground knowing they'll be put in some 40yr old POS block And if you think stuffing a roller in is the fix, think about how moving the bore .020 from the center line and changing the angle of the lifter 1 degree affects valve timing events Now imagine having 16 different variations of that and look at the incremental power you are leaving on the table.
Posted By: CRE2004

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 01:58 AM

Quote:

I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.



We correct the location of each bore on the camshaft centerline, the distance from the lead lifter to the cam thrust face after trueing the cam thrust face to be perpindicular to the crank centerline, the lifter bore to lifter bore spacing, and the angularity of all the lifter bores. If you just stuff bushing in the same hole or bore a block with the new bore in the same location as the old bore you're doing it wrong.
Posted By: 8secDart

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 02:03 AM

I stand corrected.I have bushed my Hemi stuff because of the money I had in them.NO $hit I have never had a wedge bushed and that is a lot of wedges.I know what you guys are saying about cam timing But at 8,000rpms that all goes out the window.
Posted By: Kelob_pie

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 02:05 AM

Yes, what Mike said.
Posted By: CRE2004

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 02:06 AM

Quote:

I stand corrected.I have bushed my Hemi stuff because of the money I had in them.NO $hit I have never had a wedge bushed and that is a lot of wedges.I know what you guys are saying about cam timing But at 8,000rpms that all goes out the window.



Maybe with a 3" base circle and 1" diameter pushrods we could kill the flex at 8g's
Posted By: Blucuda413

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 02:07 AM

sam64, how about all 16 holes being oversize and not realizing it. Couldn't figure at all why so little oil pressure!!!! Standard size lifter in .008 oversize hole is equal to a 1/2 inch hole in the oil system.
Posted By: 8secDart

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 02:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I stand corrected.I have bushed my Hemi stuff because of the money I had in them.NO $hit I have never had a wedge bushed and that is a lot of wedges.I know what you guys are saying about cam timing But at 8,000rpms that all goes out the window.



Maybe with a 3" base circle and 1" diameter pushrods we could kill the flex at 8g's [/quo


That would be great.LOL
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 02:59 AM

Quote:


I have bushed hundreds of them all. I can plot the bore locations with the renishaw probe and show you just how bad they are. I can plot the locations of both the top and bottom of the bore and calculate the error in the angle. As Jimi says, they are all horrible. What most fail to consider is that with the current crop of fast rate of lift flat tappet cams putting the lobe out right to the edge of the lifter, the block geometry has to be as precise as the cam is ground. Ma Mopar was the WORST of the big three as far as factory machining.
Now imagine how many flat tappet failures have been blamed on the cam and or lifters when the block is really the culprit. I laugh when I'm at COMP cams looking at how accurate the cams are ground knowing they'll be put in some 40yr old POS block And if you think stuffing a roller in is the fix, think about how moving the bore .020 from the center line and changing the angle of the lifter 1 degree affects valve timing events Now imagine having 16 different variations of that and look at the incremental power you are leaving on the table.




CRE2004 Thank you for taking the time!

Exactly what I was trying to say and then some AHMEN!
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 03:14 AM

Quote:

I know what you guys are saying about cam timing But at 8,000rpms that all goes out the window.




No it makes it MORE IMPORTANT.
Does your rotating assembly balance go out the window at 8,000 rpm's
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 03:34 AM

Quote:

I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.



Im not either a smart a$$, but if the bushing you are pressing in is thick enough you can accually manipulate the angle slightly, and then finish true the bores after the accual desired angle is achieved couldnt you?
Posted By: CRE2004

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 03:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.



Im not either a smart a$$, but if the bushing you are pressing in is thick enough you can accually manipulate the angle slightly, and then finish true the bores after the accual desired angle is achieved couldnt you?


You could do it that way but any follow up work work such as replacing a damaged bushing in the future is pure guess work. By correcting the bore location and geometry up front, you can pull out the bad bushing, pop in new ones, hone and go.
Posted By: 8secDart

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 03:48 AM

I think that is what CRE2004 said.I was thinking it was harder to do being the bushing is only .100 to .125 thick.But he knows a hell of a lot more about block work than me.
Posted By: CompSyn

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 11:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.


I have bushed hundreds of them all. I can plot the bore locations with the renishaw probe and show you just how bad they are. I can plot the locations of both the top and bottom of the bore and calculate the error in the angle. As Jimi says, they are all horrible. What most fail to consider is that with the current crop of fast rate of lift flat tappet cams putting the lobe out right to the edge of the lifter, the block geometry has to be as precise as the cam is ground. Ma Mopar was the WORST of the big three as far as factory machining.
Now imagine how many flat tappet failures have been blamed on the cam and or lifters when the block is really the culprit. I laugh when I'm at COMP cams looking at how accurate the cams are ground knowing they'll be put in some 40yr old POS block And if you think stuffing a roller in is the fix, think about how moving the bore .020 from the center line and changing the angle of the lifter 1 degree affects valve timing events Now imagine having 16 different variations of that and look at the incremental power you are leaving on the table.



Mike,

While you're here, I've got a few of questions.

Would you recommend bushing the lifter bores on a mild 400 horsepower street 400/451 stroker?

What's the longevity of the bronze bushings? Might they last 100k miles or more in the said street engine if properly maintained?

My only real concern with the bushings is if they ever came loose from the block.

Thanks in advance for the insight.
Posted By: Jimi_Vignogna

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 12:02 PM

Quote:

I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.



that is because you are not educated on this subject(not being a smart a$$) . the angle does certainly change! i have seen net gains of 14 average hp on the dyno in my stocker engine from correcting the improper lifter angularity from the poor machining from chrysler. i would challenge you to remove the un bushed engine from your car dissasemble it and check the event at each valve and tell me if it is bs.
Posted By: camdog440

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 12:09 PM



What is the typical cost of having the lifter bores bushed?

Posted By: moper

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 12:21 PM

The ones I've measured are between .906 and .907. I know it leaves a little power on the table but when I spec a lobe I don't use the ".904" profiles for that reason. They mandate everything else be to blueprint condition and most customers don't want to spend the extra coin. So I'll run a fast rate ford lifter profile and have that little bit of wiggle room (pun intended). I think if it's an all out deal then definately go as fast a rate of lift as you can but spend the cash to get the lifter bores perfect. I bush evey roller cam engine, more for safety and reliability than power, but even then I get beat up for being too "big dollar"...lol. The saddest truth is aside from the ignorance, many builders simply don't measure the lifter bore, never mind having the equipment to verify proper angles.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 12:27 PM

Quote:



What is the typical cost of having the lifter bores bushed?





It will differ in areas around the country but here
its $400-$500
Posted By: moper

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 04:37 PM

yup... $500 for me...
Posted By: john55

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 05:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:



What is the typical cost of having the lifter bores bushed?





It will differ in areas around the country but here
its $400-$500





sorry to hijack, but what about a Mopar or World block that isn't machined yet for lifters, would that be a lot more $$$
Posted By: CRE2004

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/03/10 11:37 PM

Quote:



Mike,

While you're here, I've got a few of questions.

Would you recommend bushing the lifter bores on a mild 400 horsepower street 400/451 stroker?


Depends upon what cam gets installed. Most likely not on a mild build but keep in mind a lifter bush job is less expensive than a full rebuild from a wiped cam if going flat tappet.
Quote:


What's the longevity of the bronze bushings? Might they last 100k miles or more in the said street engine if properly maintained?


Ampco bronze needs less lubrication than cast iron to not wear. As long as there is pressurized oil to the lifters, I don't see a longevity issue on a street car.
Quote:


My only real concern with the bushings is if they ever came loose from the block.

Thanks in advance for the insight.


They are pressed in and we use a sleeve locker
Posted By: Jimi_Vignogna

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/04/10 01:59 AM

Quote:



What is the typical cost of having the lifter bores bushed?





depending on what needs to be done (tanking the block,dissasembly etc.) 450.00 to 600.00
Posted By: CompSyn

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/04/10 11:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:



Mike,

While you're here, I've got a few of questions.

Would you recommend bushing the lifter bores on a mild 400 horsepower street 400/451 stroker?


Depends upon what cam gets installed. Most likely not on a mild build but keep in mind a lifter bush job is less expensive than a full rebuild from a wiped cam if going flat tappet.
Quote:


What's the longevity of the bronze bushings? Might they last 100k miles or more in the said street engine if properly maintained?


Ampco bronze needs less lubrication than cast iron to not wear. As long as there is pressurized oil to the lifters, I don't see a longevity issue on a street car.
Quote:


My only real concern with the bushings is if they ever came loose from the block.

Thanks in advance for the insight.


They are pressed in and we use a sleeve locker



Yes, I am going flat tappet. So now you got me pondering your Block-In-A-Bag option since I don't think there are any shops in my area with the same level of Mopar expertise.

Questions:

I'm attached to my block, can you return the one I send you?

Is there any shipping cost included with the Block-In-A-Bag price or is it all extra?

Generally, how does packaging and freight work with an engine block? What's the best way?

Thanks again!
Posted By: CRE2004

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/10/10 12:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



Mike,

While you're here, I've got a few of questions.

Would you recommend bushing the lifter bores on a mild 400 horsepower street 400/451 stroker?


Depends upon what cam gets installed. Most likely not on a mild build but keep in mind a lifter bush job is less expensive than a full rebuild from a wiped cam if going flat tappet.
Quote:


What's the longevity of the bronze bushings? Might they last 100k miles or more in the said street engine if properly maintained?


Ampco bronze needs less lubrication than cast iron to not wear. As long as there is pressurized oil to the lifters, I don't see a longevity issue on a street car.
Quote:


My only real concern with the bushings is if they ever came loose from the block.

Thanks in advance for the insight.


They are pressed in and we use a sleeve locker



Yes, I am going flat tappet. So now you got me pondering your Block-In-A-Bag option since I don't think there are any shops in my area with the same level of Mopar expertise.

Questions:

I'm attached to my block, can you return the one I send you?

YES

Quote:


Is there any shipping cost included with the Block-In-A-Bag price or is it all extra?


Shipping is not included
Quote:


Generally, how does packaging and freight work with an engine block? What's the best way?



Most guys strap it to a pallet and ship it via some LTL common carrier, R&L, Roadway, Yellowfreight, fedex freight, etc. Some take the time to box it or wrap it, but most just strap it down and send it. When it's returned, it will be packaged well in a HEAVY cardboard container and strapped to a pallet as well.
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues? - 02/10/10 01:45 AM

Hello Brad
I had one block I suspected of bad lifter bore indexing. It was credited to a wipe lobe in "04" I was trying to break in a MP 590 purple shaft. I done everything correctly..Sometimes they still eat lobes.
Fast forward to 2008. A friend is now using the block. He purchases a new Comp cam with SQ lobes. I wasnt there for break in, but the guy knows the in's and out's of a new cam break in procedure.
Well a few races later, he calls me and says..."hey the valve train noise is crazy lowd on this engine"
I say well have you checked lash. He said No
He calls me back a few days later and tells me the cam is trashed. I was over the next weekend. Looking at the cam I saw something that surprised me. I turned around and say "hey that wiped lobe was on Number #6 hole exh, and #4 intake?" He says yea how did you know?...LOL
That block used a roller cam, and a few other flat tappet cams in between these cams with no trouble. I know one was already broken in..but I suspect a problem with those bore for sure.
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