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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: domingo]
#600812
02/01/10 05:04 PM
02/01/10 05:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,813
A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,813
A collage of whims
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Get a head gasket for each motor, lay one over the other, and see what you get. Buddy of mine that makes torque plates usually makes them 2" thick, head gasket gives you the hole pattern, depth of the holes is cut to duplicate shape of the head and the clamping load on the block. It's not as easy as it sounds. Contact CJ @ cj@yother.com or at 510-865-2787, he may have one in stock.
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Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: domingo]
#600813
02/01/10 05:12 PM
02/01/10 05:12 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
#600814
02/01/10 06:32 PM
02/01/10 06:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,410
Belpre,Ohio
CHAPPER
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,410
Belpre,Ohio
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Been there/done that...a whole lot simplier to buy a plate!!!! The time spent making one is way more than you anticipate.
If you like drag racing, support your local track.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: CHAPPER]
#600815
02/01/10 06:46 PM
02/01/10 06:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,880
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,880
Ontario, Canada
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There are going to be some naysayers about this, however ...
Since a torque plate is there to duplicate the stresses applied by the bolts, simply making one out of 2" plate isn't the solution. The plate needs to be milled to accept the shorter bolts on the exhaust side.
If you're going to do it, water-jetting the bores would likely be the cheapest route and they don't need to be accurately sized, anything larger than the bore you're working with will do.
Now then... As previously stated, its the stresses of the bolts you want to duplicate so ... get a length of 7/16" or 1/2" i.d. DOM tubing with as thick of a wall as can be used without overhanging the bores. Cut lengths equal to the head thickness at each bolt. Ideally they should be finished on a lathe to ensure the ends are square so as not to improperly load the bolts. Make a complete set and torque these down. Voila, poor man's torque plate! Hone away!
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: domingo]
#600820
02/02/10 05:39 PM
02/02/10 05:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,880
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,880
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Ill drill the head bolt holes by hand on a bench drill using a gasket as a template.
17 1/2" holes through 2" plate on a drillpress... You're a better man than me !!!!
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#600823
02/02/10 06:51 PM
02/02/10 06:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
OP
EL Master
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OP
EL Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
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Quote:
Keep in mind, the bolt pattern for the inner row of studs is angled on hemi blocks/heads.
Thanks for that tip.
Whats the bore spacing on the HEMI and RB?
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: domingo]
#600824
02/02/10 10:35 PM
02/02/10 10:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
moderncylinder
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
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4.800 is the bore spacing,, i have a print that gives you dowel locations, bolt holes, cylinder bores,,, give me your email and ill try to send it in the next few days,, it will be an iges file
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Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: rowin4]
#600826
02/02/10 11:08 PM
02/02/10 11:08 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
#600827
02/02/10 11:39 PM
02/02/10 11:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
Quote:
Jeff while your on here, how hard would it be to use a junk head for a plate?  
I already asked that, I'd like to know also. Seems like it would produce real world distortions in the block. The ideal situation would be to run hot water through the block while honing.
Cutting the bores out of a head changes the structural integrity of the head itself thereby changing the way it affects the bore distortion(not to mention cuts open the water jacket so out goes the hot honing theory). Using a torque plate will simulate the majority of the distortion, but adding the same head gasket as will be used in the final combo gets it as close as practical. From what I've experienced, using a cometic doesn't change it much, a composition with a fire ring acts like a fulcrum and changes things substantially. Just using the bolts and spacers with no plate would have little to no effect on anything.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: CRE2004]
#600828
02/02/10 11:48 PM
02/02/10 11:48 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,880
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,880
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Just using the bolts and spacers with no plate would have little to no effect on anything.
Yeah, what the hell does Andy know !!!
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: Stanton]
#600830
02/02/10 11:54 PM
02/02/10 11:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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Quote:
Quote:
Just using the bolts and spacers with no plate would have little to no effect on anything.
Yeah, what the hell does Andy know !!!
When I read that post I didn't look who wrote it, thought that's not going to work, but then , I'm the one always
asking questions.
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: Stanton]
#600831
02/03/10 12:27 AM
02/03/10 12:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
Quote:
Just using the bolts and spacers with no plate would have little to no effect on anything.
Yeah, what the hell does Andy know !!!
He's a very intelligent and experienced individual and engine builder and someone I would consider a friend. I'm just relating my experiences and opinions on the matter, not putting anyone down.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#600833
02/03/10 01:10 AM
02/03/10 01:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
The distortion is caused by the bolts being torqued into the deck. The bolt torque is the only force and can be duplicated by just using a spacer. The spacer length is what is critical because you need to have the proper thread engagement into the block.
If you look at a torque plate the material between the bolts isn't doing anything. It can't do much because all of the load is applied with the bolts and there is no other load.
There might be a small amount of clamping load transmitted to the deck from the plate but the primary force is the torque from the bolts.
Engine builders don't use individual spacers because it is a real pain to install them all rather than just drop a plate onto the deck. But for some guy in Peru who doesn't have access to all the parts we have the spacer trick will work just fine.
Using spacers and no plate would be counter productive for an engine builder/machinist. I have plates that use spacers along with ARP hardware to not only maintain the correct thread engagement, but to ensure that the torque is applied to the fastener of correct length and made of the same material. Using a grade 8 bolt with have different results than an ARP high strength bolt or stud for that matter. There are clamping loads, albeit small, transmitted to the deck and they have an effect. What will have a greater effect is putting a head gasket under that torque plate and seeing the forces change the shape of the bores.
A lot of people bolt water pumps to the front of blocks and put bellhousing bolts in and torque them to simulate those forces as well. You can get wayyyyy too caught up in trying to simulating all that.
I agree that for a guy in Lima, Peru the spacers would be better than nothing at all.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#600834
02/03/10 01:14 AM
02/03/10 01:14 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 242
Upland, California
Spode
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 242
Upland, California
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Quote:
But for some guy in Peru who doesn't have access to all the partes we have the spacer trick will work just fine.
i think its pretty cool some guy in peru is into mopars and builds them also
keep up the good work.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: CRE2004]
#600835
02/03/10 02:47 AM
02/03/10 02:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,049
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,049
Oregon
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I don't think the plate does much but if it does then a guy could build a one hole plate and just move it from bore to bore. That would be easier than building a whole plate.
I know that people do all kinds of things but that doesn't mean it matters. Witch doctors flip chicken guts around to cure people, doesn't mean it does anything. A lot of engine builders are witch doctors in their own way. They do certain rituals but it doesn't mean that it makes a difference. Just like ballplayers who wear the same socks for every game or don't shave when they are on a winning streak.
I'm pretty sure that a bolt torqued into a cast iron block 6 inches away doesn't do anything to a cylinder bore. The stress is very local and there isn't enough force involved to move material that is outside the immediate area. The thread torque is only being applied to the threads in the block. Once those threads in the block distort they absorb all of the force and there isn't anything left to move material further away.
Of course, all of this is very dependent on the engine block in question. I think the SB Ford engines are the worst for bore distortion due to thin walls and thin deck. Some engines don't even need torque plates because the head bolts don't go into the deck. The new LS motors are like that with the bolts doing down into the bottom of the block. You can torque on those all day and the cylinder bores don't distort. I think the Mopar NASCAR engine is the same way.
Last edited by AndyF; 02/03/10 02:50 AM.
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#600836
02/03/10 09:09 AM
02/03/10 09:09 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I would think that if you put a head gasket on it changes the whole thing with the fire ring applying a completely different force and if I remember correctly most (if not all) dont use a gasket.... I would also think that the hot water would also be another major factor.... JMO 
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Re: Advice on making my own honing plate B/RB and HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#600838
02/03/10 07:53 PM
02/03/10 07:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209
New York
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The stress is very local
I agree, that's very important. The clamping area isn't much bigger than 1" radial to the bolt itself.
It's not everything, but it's the only certain thing - a full plate cannot duplicate the bending stress of an actual head casting with water passages, let alone a head with rocker stands, accessories and spring tension, and is likely to stress over or under or in the wrong places.
If you can, torquing the mains in place, etc. is also useful, but has far less effect since cylinder distortion is not only much smaller (bolts aren't close to the bore) but much less critical since it's at the lowest point of cylinder pressure.
Boffin Emeritus
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